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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (November-December) » Archive through December 08, 2008 » How long until English supercedes Irish as the "national" language both symbolically and constitutionally? « Previous Next »

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 163
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I imagine most of us have encountered people who, when speaking about the Irish language say: "I wish I could speak my OWN language." Or something similar.

For many (most?) Irish people, there's still that deep connection between the language and their cultural and national identity.

I suppose my primary question is this: At what point will that connection be severed in the minds of the majority of the population?

Is it simply a matter of time? Or will it always remain? What effect might this have for the position of Irish in Bunreacht na hÉireann? What
sort of relationship might the future Irish-born children (broadly speaking) of immigrants have with Irish?

Numerous polls and studies over the years have consistently shown that there's a lot of goodwill towards Irish out there. Yes, it usually doesn't translate into people becoming habitual speakers, but it's there nonetheless.

Secondly, English is the national language in all but name. Irish hasn't been the predominant spoken language in some counties in three hundred years or more. For example, Wicklow, Kildare, Wexford, Down, Antrim and Dublin. What are some alternative ways that Gaeilge could be promoted without emphasis being put on the language being *THE* national, native tongue? I bring this particular point up because I've been involved in a number of debates where Irish people expressed a lack of interest or affection for Irish because they felt it was a "foreign" language to them. Like any other European vernacular. The whole native tongue line of reasoning didn't resonate with them. And if your family has been effectively monoglot-English speaking for say...ten or more generations (as would be the case for many families with deep roots in the aforementioned counties), then it doesn't seem like such an unreasonable viewpoint. Just as it wouldn't be unreasonable for a bilingual native Irish speaker from Leitir Móir or Gort a' Choirce etc to view English as an adopted, near-alien speech. Especially if they come from a long line of monoglots.


I'd appreciate your thoughts on any of these issues.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 164
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

PS.

If any of you are tempted to infer that this is a "doom and gloom" thread, think again. In my opinion, these are issues which will be popping up in time, whether we like it or not.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 235
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Actually Irish was widely spoken in Antrim up untill the 60s, in the Glens of Antrim there was native Irish speakers living there it was a Gaeltacht there is even a book about that dialect, I suppose it was Catholic areas in the Glens of Antrim were Irish was spoken.

gaeilgeoir.blogspot.com

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 165
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There were still native speakers there, yes. But I wasn't claiming those counties never had Irish speaking communities in them. I was saying counties like Antrim haven't been PREDOMINANTLY Irish speaking in three hundred years or more. In other words, the county taken as a whole.

The census of 1851 found a grand total of 123 (!!) Irish speakers in all of County Wicklow. 123. That doesn't mean Wicklow was never Irish speaking.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 7729
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 06:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The notion of "national language" in the constitution is aspirational.

To predict when that part of the emotional self identity of Irish people will change is difficult.

At the moment, immigrant children in English language schools are routinely topping Irish classes - because they don't have the emotional baggage of Anglophone parents who have internalised, and transmitted to their children the curious notion that Irish in unlearnable and "no use". It's too early to say what effect that will have.

The position is complex.

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 169
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 06:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tharla gur 1851 an bhliain a luaigh tá a Danny, cá bhfios nár ith Béarlóirí Chill Mhantáin Gaeilgeoirí Chill Mhantáin!

Sin, nó gur ith Béarlóirí Chill Mhantáin a ndóthain de 'monoglots' Gaeilge Chill Mhantáin agus gur lig dream cliste eile Gaeilgeoirí Chill Mhantáin go raibh Béarla acu.

Mar a dúradh, 'Yes' and 'No' is ea an chuid is mó den Bhéarla.

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 276
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Irish was alive in all counties til 19th century I reckon...you must remember counties like Dublin were largely rural til the 20th century..as for Wexford I think it was spoken in northern parts of the county til the 19th century..

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 171
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá cainteoirí dúchais i ngach contae in Éirinn, anois 12.00 am Átha Luain, inniu, Déardaoin, 20 Samhain 2008.

Rugadh roinnt acu sa nGaeltacht agus bhogadar aniar nó aneas. Rugadh roinnt eile díobh i Sligeach, Liatroim, BÁC, Cill Mhantáin, Béal Feirste srl.

Ní miste cuimhneamh ar an méid sin, agus a bhuí le Dhia, níl cead ag muintir an Bhéarla iad a ithe!

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 277
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Agus i Liatroim cheanna!! ;)

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 172
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An bhfuil baint agat féin leis an taobh sain tíre a Dhiarmo?

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Buachaill_rua
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Username: Buachaill_rua

Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think wholesale change will occur after the unification of Ireland.
The unionists/loyalists will want to become 'more Irish than the Irish' and will take up the language. Then the people in the south will get the kick in the ass they need to learn the language and pretty soon afterwards We'll all be fluent Gaelgóirs.

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 236
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 12:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá cainteoirí dhúchais in achan chontae in Éirinn ach fuair den chuid is mó daoine a gcuid Gaeilge ó fhoghlaimeoirí seachas na Gaeltachtaí. Is féidir gur d'fhoghlaim cúpla duine Gaeilge ó chainteoirí as an Ghaeltacht sa Ghalltacht déarfainn go bhfuil sin go maith.

Buachaillrua > Ní fhoghlaimeoidh na haontaithí Gaeilge sna sé contae mar síleann siad gur teanga Phoblachtach atá ann, sin an fhadhb...

Bhí iontas orm nuair a chonaic mé Cill Dara ar an liosta, is as Cill Dara mise ach caithfidh go raibh an Ghaeilge ag mo shinsearaigh mar is as an Cheatharlach é m'athair mhór agus is as contae an Chláir í mo sheanmháthair ó dhúchais ach bhog siad go Cill Dara le chéile, bhí an Ghaeilge beo sa Chlár blianta ó shoin.

gaeilgeoir.blogspot.com

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 173
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 02:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

..., bhí an Ghaeilge beo sa Chlár blianta ó shoin.


Bhí an Ghaeilg beo i gCo. an Chláir inniu ag meán lae, tá sí beo tráthnóna agus beidh sí beo ag meán lae amárach chomh maith.

Dhá mhadadh, caoraigh, ba agus mé féin atá thart anseo inniu. 100% Gaeilge atá san áit seo mar san. Aon duine amháin a thug cuairt orm inné agus Gaeilg ar fad a labhair sé, rud a chiallaíonn gur 100% Gaeilge a bhí san áit seo inné chomh maith. Ní hé amháin go bhfuil an Ghaeilg beo san áit seo, ach féach go bhfuil an Béarla marbh! Chonaic mé carr ag teach thuas an bóthar tráthnóna a chiallaíonn nach amháin go bhfuil an Béarla marbh san áit, ach tá an Ghearmáinis beo chomh maith leis an nGaeilg. As an Almáin lánúin an tí agus táid ag iarraidh bogadh anso ar fad.

An chéad teach lastuas de theach na Gearmáinise, míle bealaigh, is teach Béarla agus Gearmáinise é. As an Almáin fear an tí sin. Tá baintreach lastuas díobh agus Béarla ar fad atá ina teach sise.

Níl an Béarla chomh tréan fud fad na tíre is a shíleann daoine. Tá sé sna tithe agus tá sé sa tsráid, ach ní labhraíonn daoine lena chéile oiread san, thar a lucht aitheantais féin ar aon chuma.

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 238
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 02:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl Béarla marbh in Éirinn ar chor ar bith...

gaeilgeoir.blogspot.com

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I remember an old teacher of mine saying that the best to grow the langauge, was to immediately ban it's use and to persecute those speaking it. He reckoned, given our perverse nature, that he langauge would thrive

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 166
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I will attempt to translate your first response, Smac_muirí. You too Trigger. It will take some time so I'll do it when I get back from work.

I'll be requesting translations of the later, lengthy posts as I see there's a lot about the Gaeltacht in there and I want to be able to converse with you (without getting into yet another squabble over etiquette).

Slán go fóill.

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 174
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl Béarla marbh in Éirinn ar chor ar bith...



Is féidir liom siúl as an teach so trasna an tsléibhe go dtí Airgneach gan duine a fheiceáil i rith an bhealaigh, achar 15 mhíle. Níl oiread is focal amháin Béarla san áit sin. Sin 15 mhíle d'Éirinn a bhfuil an Béarla marbh. Is iomaí sliabh, oileán agus loch eile sa tír seo nach bhfuil gíog ná míog as an mBéarla!

Le muintir an Bhéarla a chur san áit chóir, má bhuaileann sibh le héinne in áit mar san, molaim daoibh Gaeilg amháin a labhairt leo. Casadh dom fear ar bharr Choimeálta i dTiobraid Árann roinnt blianta ó shoin. Ba ionadh leis nuair a choinníos Gaeilg leis, ach ba bhreá leis go ndearnas amhlaidh. Mheas mé nach millfeadh sé an áit ná an lá orm, is níor mhill.

Cén fáth go samhlófaí an Béarla leis na bailte fearainn nach bhfuil duine ná deoraí iontu? Glac uaim é, tá an Béarla go faonlag sa chuid is mó d'Éirinn agus mura bhfuil, tá sé marbh nó gonta.

Is inghonta an Béarla chomh maith le teanga ar bith eile ar domhan. Fút féin a ghoin nó a threisiú.

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 175
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

.... an old teacher of mine saying that the best to grow the langauge, was to immediately ban it's use and to persecute those speaking it. ...


Glacaim leis nár thuig sé an leathcheal, an neamhaird, an naimhdeas a teilgeadh i gcoinne lucht labhartha na Gaeilge in oifigí stáit ó cheann ceann an oileáin dá ngairtear Éirinn. Is le déanaí a rinne an Ghaeilg dul chun cinn i saol an duine in Éirinn. Cén fáth nár tharla sé sna blianta ba mheasa? Dúnadh na gColáistí Ullmhúcháin, leath uaire an chloig Gaeilge ar an teilifís in aghaidh na seachtaine agus dhá bhealach teilifíse Béarla ag craoladh leo as Domhnach Broc ar airgead an cháiníocóra ag an am, gan trácht ar UTV nár ar an mBBC.

Ar i nGaeilg nó i mBéarla a bhíodh an seanoide ag ríomh a leigheas féin ar ghalar an Bhéarla duit/daoibh?

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 239
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mar a dúirt mé ''níl Béala marbh in Éirinn ar chor ar bith''. Chan fhuair an Ghaeilge bás áit ar bith in Éirinn, déarfainn go mbeadh sé níos fearr a rá ''Cha raibh Béarla beo'' sa chéad dul síos...

gaeilgeoir.blogspot.com

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 176
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tagaim leat, cha raibh is cha bhíonn.

Cuirimis cos i bpoll leis an diabhal Béarla!

Tá a fhios agam scraith ghlogair a bhféadfaí péist den chineál san a theilgean.

Caithfimid labhairt le Rónán Mac Aodha Bhuí faoi thórramh a eagrú.

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 240
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The census of 1851 found a grand total of 123 (!!) Irish speakers in all of County Wicklow. 123. That doesn't mean Wicklow was never Irish speaking.



That is very strange to think of, I wonder if the numbers improved in 2008? I wonder what the numbers is today and see how its improved/got worse?

gaeilgeoir.blogspot.com

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2562
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I remember an old teacher of mine saying that the best to grow the langauge, was to immediately ban it's use and to persecute those speaking it. He reckoned, given our perverse nature, that he langauge would thrive



Ó, tá sin fíor ! is dóigh liom fosta go mbeadh tóir ar a' Ghaeilg muna mbeadh sé riachtanach níos mó ins na scoltacha. Is fuath leis na páistí í siocair go bhfuil sí riachtanach, ach muna mbeadh sí níos mó, síleam go mbeadh suim acu inti aríst go gasta...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 7733
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fianaise, le do thoil?
Rinneadh rud mar seo sa Bhreatain - agus tá an tóin tithe as múineadh teangacha ansin.

Níl i gcaint mar sin, i gcead daoibh, ach bladar.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 167
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The notion of "national language" in the constitution is aspirational.


Is it? I thought it's position was more symbolic and owing to the fact, despite the last couple of centuries of attrition, Irish has been the more widely spoken language throughout the many centuries of recorded history on the island. Did the revivalists actually think they could replace English with Irish to be the main language of the people once more? That's not the impression that I have. Even Pearse and eventually Hyde came to acknowledge that it wasn't feasible and that the focus should have been on stopping the decline. Language maintenance.

quote:

At the moment, immigrant children in English language schools are routinely topping Irish classes - because they don't have the emotional baggage of Anglophone parents who have internalised, and transmitted to their children the curious notion that Irish in unlearnable and "no use". It's too early to say what effect that will have.


It seems some gaelscoils in and around Dublin have a fairly high level of immigrant kids enrolling too. That's vital!

quote:

Actually Irish was widely spoken in Antrim up untill the 60s


Widely spoken? That's not really accurate. It wasn't even the main language in a single barony back in 1851, unfortunately. The last native speaker (or neo-native speaker, depending on your point of view) on Rathlin had virtually no one to speak with as the last generation of speakers there had all died out by the end of the 1950s. Still, Irish certainly did last on Rathlin and in the Glens (centred around Cushendall, from what I understand) much longer than most places in present-day Northern Ireland.

quote:

Irish was alive in all counties til 19th century I reckon...

I agree, Diarmo. There's no doubt that there were still native speakers across the land. It's just that certain counties were no longer home to Irish speaking communities per se.

quote:

you must remember counties like Dublin were largely rural til the 20th century..as for Wexford I think it was spoken in northern parts of the county til the 19th century..


In the case of Leinster, I don't think it mattered all that much whether it was rural or not. Only 0.9% of the inhabitants in rural Co. Dublin were returned as Irish speakers in 1851. The figure for Dublin City was 1.3%.

Even allowing for moderate underestimates (which is more than likely what it was), the picture is clear. The figure for all of Co. Wexford was 0.4%. What's interesting is that the bulk of the speakers were to be found in just two baronies where they numbered in the hundreds in each, so it seems a community of sorts did hold out for some time.

quote:

I think wholesale change will occur after the unification of Ireland.
The unionists/loyalists will want to become 'more Irish than the Irish' and will take up the language.


Seems like wishful thinking to me, but I hope you're right.

quote:

That is very strange to think of, I wonder if the numbers improved in 2008? I wonder what the numbers is today and see how its improved/got worse?


Of course they improved in terms of the total number of people putting themselves down as Irish speakers on the census. With compulsory Irish, how could they not!? The difference between now and then is that Irish was regarded as very much a low prestige language. And the vast, vast majority of speakers were native speakers. It wasn't taught in the schools etc. Second language speakers make up a much higher percentage now than they ever did. That's one of the accomplishments!

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 168
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi Smac_muirí,
I've got my Collins Irish Dictionary so I'm going to attempt to translate your reply to me.

quote:

Tharla gur 1851 an bhliain a luaigh tá a Danny, cá bhfios nár ith Béarlóirí Chill Mhantáin Gaeilgeoirí Chill Mhantáin!

Sin, nó gur ith Béarlóirí Chill Mhantáin a ndóthain de 'monoglots' Gaeilge Chill Mhantáin agus gur lig dream cliste eile Gaeilgeoirí Chill Mhantáin go raibh Béarla acu.

Mar a dúradh, 'Yes' and 'No' is ea an chuid is mó den Bhéarla.



Tharla [tarlaigh] = happen, occur, come about
luaigh = mention, cite
bhfios [fios] = knowledge, information
lig = allow
ith = eat, feed
nár = that (????)

dóthain = enough, sufficiency
dúradh = speak

I don't think I'll be able to piece it all together. Are you suggesting that the census returns gave a false picture (an underestimation) due to the nature of the census forms or the way the data was collected? And that by proving simply Yes or NO options, it excluded monoglots or those with broken English? Or rather that many Irish speakers were clever (cliste) and feigned ignorance of the language? If so, I've certainly heard that theory, which would go some way in explaining why most academics accept that the returns are an underestimation.

dream cliste eile...is dream a typo meant to be dréim (aspiration) ??

Am I on the right track with any of this? I'd appreciate a translation from you to see where I'm at, please.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 169
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tá cainteoirí dhúchais in achan chontae in Éirinn ach fuair den chuid is mó daoine a gcuid Gaeilge ó fhoghlaimeoirí seachas na Gaeltachtaí. Is féidir gur d'fhoghlaim cúpla duine Gaeilge ó chainteoirí as an Ghaeltacht sa Ghalltacht déarfainn go bhfuil sin go maith.

Buachaillrua > Ní fhoghlaimeoidh na haontaithí Gaeilge sna sé contae mar síleann siad gur teanga Phoblachtach atá ann, sin an fhadhb...

Bhí iontas orm nuair a chonaic mé Cill Dara ar an liosta, is as Cill Dara mise ach caithfidh go raibh an Ghaeilge ag mo shinsearaigh mar is as an Cheatharlach é m'athair mhór agus is as contae an Chláir í mo sheanmháthair ó dhúchais ach bhog siad go Cill Dara le chéile, bhí an Ghaeilge beo sa Chlár blianta ó shoin.


Trigger, would you please provide a summary of your post? GRMA.



quote:

Bhí an Ghaeilg beo i gCo. an Chláir inniu ag meán lae, tá sí beo tráthnóna agus beidh sí beo ag meán lae amárach chomh maith.

Dhá mhadadh, caoraigh, ba agus mé féin atá thart anseo inniu. 100% Gaeilge atá san áit seo mar san. Aon duine amháin a thug cuairt orm inné agus Gaeilg ar fad a labhair sé, rud a chiallaíonn gur 100% Gaeilge a bhí san áit seo inné chomh maith. Ní hé amháin go bhfuil an Ghaeilg beo san áit seo, ach féach go bhfuil an Béarla marbh! Chonaic mé carr ag teach thuas an bóthar tráthnóna a chiallaíonn nach amháin go bhfuil an Béarla marbh san áit, ach tá an Ghearmáinis beo chomh maith leis an nGaeilg. As an Almáin lánúin an tí agus táid ag iarraidh bogadh anso ar fad.

An chéad teach lastuas de theach na Gearmáinise, míle bealaigh, is teach Béarla agus Gearmáinise é. As an Almáin fear an tí sin. Tá baintreach lastuas díobh agus Béarla ar fad atá ina teach sise.

Níl an Béarla chomh tréan fud fad na tíre is a shíleann daoine. Tá sé sna tithe agus tá sé sa tsráid, ach ní labhraíonn daoine lena chéile oiread san, thar a lucht aitheantais féin ar aon chuma.


Can you please provide a summary of this post so I can follow the discussion to the thread I started?

quote:

Níl Béarla marbh in Éirinn ar chor ar bith...



Is féidir liom siúl as an teach so trasna an tsléibhe go dtí Airgneach gan duine a fheiceáil i rith an bhealaigh, achar 15 mhíle. Níl oiread is focal amháin Béarla san áit sin. Sin 15 mhíle d'Éirinn a bhfuil an Béarla marbh. Is iomaí sliabh, oileán agus loch eile sa tír seo nach bhfuil gíog ná míog as an mBéarla!

Le muintir an Bhéarla a chur san áit chóir, má bhuaileann sibh le héinne in áit mar san, molaim daoibh Gaeilg amháin a labhairt leo. Casadh dom fear ar bharr Choimeálta i dTiobraid Árann roinnt blianta ó shoin. Ba ionadh leis nuair a choinníos Gaeilg leis, ach ba bhreá leis go ndearnas amhlaidh. Mheas mé nach millfeadh sé an áit ná an lá orm, is níor mhill.

Cén fáth go samhlófaí an Béarla leis na bailte fearainn nach bhfuil duine ná deoraí iontu? Glac uaim é, tá an Béarla go faonlag sa chuid is mó d'Éirinn agus mura bhfuil, tá sé marbh nó gonta.

Is inghonta an Béarla chomh maith le teanga ar bith eile ar domhan. Fút féin a ghoin nó a threisiú


From the words that I can pick out, this looks good. Can you do a summary of this message as well so I can participate in the discussion? I assume it's related to the thread I started.

Go raibh maith 'ad!

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Smac_muirí
Member
Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 177
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi Smac_muirí,
I've got my Collins Irish Dictionary so I'm going to attempt to translate your reply to me.
quote:
Tharla gur 1851 an bhliain a luaigh tá a Danny, cá bhfios nár ith Béarlóirí Chill Mhantáin Gaeilgeoirí Chill Mhantáin!

Sin, nó gur ith Béarlóirí Chill Mhantáin a ndóthain de 'monoglots' Gaeilge Chill Mhantáin agus gur lig dream cliste eile Gaeilgeoirí Chill Mhantáin go raibh Béarla acu.

Mar a dúradh, 'Yes' and 'No' is ea an chuid is mó den Bhéarla.


Tharla [tarlaigh] = happen, occur, come about
luaigh = mention, cite
bhfios [fios] = knowledge, information
lig = allow
ith = eat, feed
nár = that (????)

dóthain = enough, sufficiency
dúradh = speak

I don't think I'll be able to piece it all together. Are you suggesting that the census returns gave a false picture (an underestimation) due to the nature of the census forms or the way the data was collected? And that by proving simply Yes or NO options, it excluded monoglots or those with broken English? Or rather that many Irish speakers were clever (cliste) and feigned ignorance of the language? If so, I've certainly heard that theory, which would go some way in explaining why most academics accept that the returns are an underestimation.

dream cliste eile...is dream a typo meant to be dréim (aspiration) ??

Am I on the right track with any of this? I'd appreciate a translation from you to see where I'm at, please.

quote:
Tá cainteoirí dhúchais in achan chontae in Éirinn ach fuair den chuid is mó daoine a gcuid Gaeilge ó fhoghlaimeoirí seachas na Gaeltachtaí. Is féidir gur d'fhoghlaim cúpla duine Gaeilge ó chainteoirí as an Ghaeltacht sa Ghalltacht déarfainn go bhfuil sin go maith.

Buachaillrua > Ní fhoghlaimeoidh na haontaithí Gaeilge sna sé contae mar síleann siad gur teanga Phoblachtach atá ann, sin an fhadhb...

Bhí iontas orm nuair a chonaic mé Cill Dara ar an liosta, is as Cill Dara mise ach caithfidh go raibh an Ghaeilge ag mo shinsearaigh mar is as an Cheatharlach é m'athair mhór agus is as contae an Chláir í mo sheanmháthair ó dhúchais ach bhog siad go Cill Dara le chéile, bhí an Ghaeilge beo sa Chlár blianta ó shoin.

Trigger, would you please provide a summary of your post? GRMA.


quote:
Bhí an Ghaeilg beo i gCo. an Chláir inniu ag meán lae, tá sí beo tráthnóna agus beidh sí beo ag meán lae amárach chomh maith.

Dhá mhadadh, caoraigh, ba agus mé féin atá thart anseo inniu. 100% Gaeilge atá san áit seo mar san. Aon duine amháin a thug cuairt orm inné agus Gaeilg ar fad a labhair sé, rud a chiallaíonn gur 100% Gaeilge a bhí san áit seo inné chomh maith. Ní hé amháin go bhfuil an Ghaeilg beo san áit seo, ach féach go bhfuil an Béarla marbh! Chonaic mé carr ag teach thuas an bóthar tráthnóna a chiallaíonn nach amháin go bhfuil an Béarla marbh san áit, ach tá an Ghearmáinis beo chomh maith leis an nGaeilg. As an Almáin lánúin an tí agus táid ag iarraidh bogadh anso ar fad.

An chéad teach lastuas de theach na Gearmáinise, míle bealaigh, is teach Béarla agus Gearmáinise é. As an Almáin fear an tí sin. Tá baintreach lastuas díobh agus Béarla ar fad atá ina teach sise.

Níl an Béarla chomh tréan fud fad na tíre is a shíleann daoine. Tá sé sna tithe agus tá sé sa tsráid, ach ní labhraíonn daoine lena chéile oiread san, thar a lucht aitheantais féin ar aon chuma.

Can you please provide a summary of this post so I can follow the discussion to the thread I started?
quote:
Níl Béarla marbh in Éirinn ar chor ar bith...



Is féidir liom siúl as an teach so trasna an tsléibhe go dtí Airgneach gan duine a fheiceáil i rith an bhealaigh, achar 15 mhíle. Níl oiread is focal amháin Béarla san áit sin. Sin 15 mhíle d'Éirinn a bhfuil an Béarla marbh. Is iomaí sliabh, oileán agus loch eile sa tír seo nach bhfuil gíog ná míog as an mBéarla!

Le muintir an Bhéarla a chur san áit chóir, má bhuaileann sibh le héinne in áit mar san, molaim daoibh Gaeilg amháin a labhairt leo. Casadh dom fear ar bharr Choimeálta i dTiobraid Árann roinnt blianta ó shoin. Ba ionadh leis nuair a choinníos Gaeilg leis, ach ba bhreá leis go ndearnas amhlaidh. Mheas mé nach millfeadh sé an áit ná an lá orm, is níor mhill.

Cén fáth go samhlófaí an Béarla leis na bailte fearainn nach bhfuil duine ná deoraí iontu? Glac uaim é, tá an Béarla go faonlag sa chuid is mó d'Éirinn agus mura bhfuil, tá sé marbh nó gonta.

Is inghonta an Béarla chomh maith le teanga ar bith eile ar domhan. Fút féin a ghoin nó a threisiú

From the words that I can pick out, this looks good. Can you do a summary of this message as well so I can participate in the discussion? I assume it's related to the thread I started.

Go raibh maith 'ad!


Tá sé sin an-spéisiúil ar fad.

Tá. Go raibh maith agat féin - Thank you too, yes, I'm much obliged.

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 170
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'd appreciate a translation from you since I took the time attempting to interpret your response to my thread. Now's the time to bury the hatchet. Are you willing to do that?

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 921
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní hé amháin go bhfuil an Ghaeilg beo san áit seo, ach féach go bhfuil an Béarla marbh!
Tá ráite agat ansin. Nach tú a choinníos misneach ionainn uilig!

Is amhlaidh go bhfuil sí beo abhus anseo freisin - níos beo ná an Béarla ná ceann ar bith de theangacha oifigiúla na tíre seo 'na bhfuilim. Teaghlach Romáinise atá i mbéal dorais agam ar thaobh amháin agus teaghlach Portaingéilise ar an taobh eile.

Tagaim leat faoi na háiteacha iargúlta: cén áit eile ar féidir Gaeltacht a dhéanamh dí thú féin, asat féin, gan áis gan Aire, ach í a labhairt le cibé neach a chasfaí leat? (Chuile cheard den domhan, sin í an áit.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Smac_muirí
Member
Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 178
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'd appreciate a translation from you since I took the time attempting to interpret your response to my thread. Now's the time to bury the hatchet. Are you willing to do that?


Tá mé cinnte go mbeadh fáilte agat roimh stró a chur ar an duine eile, ach tharla nach foghlaimeoir mar fhoghlaimeoirí eile thú, is ag fanacht a bheas tú mo léan.

Tá an saol róghearr le ham a chur amú ar aistriúcháin do dhaoine nach dtabharfaidh faoin teanga a fhoghlaim.

An té atá ag foghlaim teanga, cuideofar leis. Tá léirithe go paiteanta agat féin i do fhocail féin ar an gclár so cheana féin, gur cuma leat an teanga a fhoghlaim nó gan a fhoghlaim.

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Trigger
Member
Username: Trigger

Post Number: 241
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Translation:

There is native speakers in every county in Ireland but most got their Irish from other learners part from the Gaeltacht areas. Its possible a couple of people can learn Irish from native speakers from the Gaeltacht in English speaking areas I would say that would be good.

Buachaillrua > The unionists won't learn Irish in the 6 counties because they think its a Republican language, thats the problem...

I was suprised when I saw Kildare on the list, I am from Kildare but my ancestors must of had Irish because my grandfather is from Carlow, and my grandmother is from Clare but they moved to Kildare together, Irish was alive in Clare years ago.

gaeilgeoir.blogspot.com

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Smac_muirí
Member
Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 182
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is maith do chineáltas a Thrigger ach caith súil ar an nasc so, ar do chaoithiúlacht mar a bhfuil an abairt seo:

Last, please don't feed the trolls ;-)


http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=instructions#ru les

Last, please don't feed the trolls ;-)

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1351
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There was a link to an article some time back about a surge (still a minority, but large enough to surprise) in desire to learn Irish among the Protestant Unionists in the north. I believe they cited seeing it as part of their identity ("being unionist doesn't make us less Irish" 7rl 7rl)

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Ardri
Member
Username: Ardri

Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is tuar maith den todhchaí é sin, dár liom. Tá alán ainbhíosachas ag bhaint le na hAontachtaí agus an mbeallach a chéilliurann síad a chuid féinulacht. I mo thuraim, rinneadar an "downplay" ar a chuid "Irishness", mar a dearfaidís.

Ceapaim go fíor é go bhfuil nasc leis an Gaelainn le chuile té sa Inis seo. Ach is minic a tagann an ceist (go dtí?) ar m'aigne dár leis an nasc politicúil, an ceangail atá cruthe leis an aithne Nasiunaí Éireannach.

Cá mbeadh ár teanga dúchas gan iarracht na poblachtachaí fadó agus láthair. nó i mBéarla:

where would Irish be if it wasnt for the efforts of Irish Republicans/Nationalists past and present.?



(Ceist an tosaitheoir: Cad is brí le "srl" grma)

Penpal Gaelach? Ma bhfuil suim ag aon duine teaghmháil a déanamh, chun a Ghaeilge a cleachtadh, bhfeabhas a chuir ar mo litríocht, nó chun comhrá shuimiúil a fháil, chuir teactaireacht dom! GRMMA

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Ardri
Member
Username: Ardri

Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

ó a thiarcais!
táim díreach tar éis an thread "Daltaí Rules and "Netiquette" revisited" a fheiceáil, agus ar na riallacha fé díospoireacht politicúil. Ar mo thaobh den scéal, caithfaidh mé a rá gur teachtareacht fén stair é i ionadh a bheith mar ceann politicúil.

Penpal Gaelach? Ma bhfuil suim ag aon duine teaghmháil a déanamh, chun a Ghaeilge a cleachtadh, bhfeabhas a chuir ar mo litríocht, nó chun comhrá shuimiúil a fháil, chuir teactaireacht dom! GRMMA

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Wee_falorie_man
Member
Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 182
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ná bí buartha, a chara!

As long as the post is polite and pertains to the Irish language then you are okay; of course, it also helps alot that you posted your message in Irish

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 172
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm not trolling.

Smac_muirí, you're going against the spirit of the boards etiquette. You're only hurting the language with your childish antics.

There's nothing in there that says discussion about Irish language issues aren't allowed. That's all I'm doing. At least people like Trigger and Aonghus have class.

I'd suggest that you no longer address posts to me in Irish only. You've once again disrupted the thread by using Irish in a vindictive, taunting manner. It just imposes barriers in communication when you do it in that manner. I've asked you politely for a summary. What more can I do?

Will the mod set the record straight once and for all or will we keep going on like this?


I'm not backing down. I won't be bullied. I'm not leaving...as I've done nothing wrong. Sin é.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 343
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What more can I do?


Is aon rud amháin a ritheann liom...

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member
Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 562
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Will the mod set the record straight once and for all or will we keep going on like this?

The policy has been enumerated more than once, Danny. It is simplicity itself:

- You may request a translation into English.
- If the poster feels like accomodating you, he will.
- Otherwise, you'll have to haul out a dictionary.

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Caoimhín
Board Administrator
Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 243
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 08:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go díreach.

Caoimhin

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 174
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 12:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks for clearing that all up, Caoimhín.

So be it. Clearly the "Netiquette" bit is a loose guide and nothing more. And not a peep about a certain users antics. Joe MacMurray will be pleased.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt early on when this all started months ago. I ask politely for a translation so I can respond properly to a post directed at me IN MY OWN THREAD. Nothing. I offer to bury the hatchet. Taunts. Clearly he has a deep respect for the language.

Interestingly enough, by coincidence I came across a discussion on Indymedia.ie not that long ago which touched on this particular issue. Here's the opinion that one Irish speaker expressed to another.

quote:

The last thing the Irish language needs is snobby morons like you who would try and use it as an impediment to discussion and debate. Why would you come on to a news and discussion site and then try and "impose" a "distance" between you and the other users? If you can't handle debate, piss off. You are an embarrassment to gaeilgeoirí everywhere.



http://www.indymedia.ie/article/81224#comment187440


Chat with you all later.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on November 22, 2008)

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Smac_muirí
Member
Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 187
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 05:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má fheicim féin, nó má fheiceann éinne eile is dóigh, aon Joe MacMurray sa timpeall, inseoimid dó go mbeidh Domhnall2007, nó a mhacasamhail, ag 'caint le cách ar ball' mar san, chomh maith le bheith ag léamh tuilleadh truflaise ar Indymedia (nuair a d'fhéadfadh sé a bheith ag foghlaim na Gaeilge agus a bheith ag tacú léi).

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 175
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 01:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A sampling of the responses received on a different forum to the same questions that started this roller coaster of a thread.

From Politics.ie:
http://www.politics.ie/culture-community/37763-when-will-english-supercede-irish -national-language-symbolically.html

quote:

English in an international language and will never become a sybmol[sic] of our separateness and nationality.

Gaelic is unique in that respect.



quote:

The compulsion must be removed from the Teanga to allow it to flourish, as it might.



quote:

The project was started to create a sense of national identity in the aftermath of independence and after the civil war. However, it has run its course and needs to be urgently revisited and reassessed as it's not really achieving much in terms of promotion of the language anymore. If anything it's damaging how it is perceived by a large number of people.

...Meanwhile, you've got a bunch of 'cranks' who are pushing and pushing to force the language on people through use of legislation and officialdom i.e. the entire Official Languages Act which seems to aim to bureaucratically force the use of Irish by civil service / public bodies at a cost of millions none of which will actually achieve anything.



quote:

I think the Irish language movement is on the verge of a critical juncture in its history, where the Gaeilge movement will have to decide if they think it is a realistic goal to have a bilingual society.

Until we as a society (incl. the government) acknowledge the fact that it is completely unrealistic to aim for a bilingual society at present.

We need to consolidate the amazing support there is already for the language amoung the wider population.

...Irish language media will become even more important, as it becomes the only way people can practice and learn the language, once the Gaeltachts sadly disappear.



quote:

Sadly, i do think the native Irish speakers will be gone in another 25 years, meaning the Gaeltachts will no longer be there, and the Irish government has failed in in its objective to stem the tide in the decline of native speakers.
However, the government has suceeded through education and the media to create a small-scale revival, which hopefully over the next 20 years will become massive.



quote:

English is the de-facto national language of Ireland - and always will be. The amount of money and school time we've wasted on the so-called Irish language is an absolute disgrace.



quote:

English has been the de facto national language for over a century but it will never take the place of Irish Gaelic.



quote:

I was so disapointed when visiting Gaeltacht areas to find spoken Irish nonexistant,its a pure sham ,when i queried a local the answer was "we dont speak it ,but everyone is able to do so". I think its all about grants and Udaras to be honest,more Irish spoken in this "galltacht" town.



quote:

I was in a pub in Donegal,and all the customers were speaking Irish to each other..including the bar staff.

I was the only one speaking to my wife in English.. till they heard me mention Josef Locke and then they spoke warmly to us in English.



quote:

The linguistic quality of the Irish acquired by school learners is pretty low and in most cases does not involve any cultural enrichment for the learner. In fact some analysts are pointing to the fact that a lot of the Irish being used now is 'pidgin Irish', with limited vocabulary and using wrong or foreign grammatical forms.



quote:

I selected these sections from your contribution in order to say that the Official languages Act did indeed result from a thorough reassessment of the Revival. The Act was designed to meet a situation in which is was accepted that since the population would never speak Irish, the Revival would have to be carried on as a 'State Officials Only' activity. This needed legally binding requirements for Irish language use and a legal basis for the provision of funds to pay the official who are hired to meet those legal requirements.



quote:

Irish is sadly dying in the Gaeltacht and it will be a crying shame by 2030 that the language will be gone, its like losing a living thing. Some people don't realise that if the Gaeltacht dies, Irish will lose its authentity.



quote:

I think that this is the really interesting thing about the Official Languages Act. It is based on an acceptance that the popular language will not change and that Irish will be preserved by the tasking of state officials to use it. This is pretty radical thinking!


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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 565
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 01:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá caitheamh aimsire nua uait, a Dhanny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK-QIDzTdso

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 927
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 03:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Spéisiúil. Go raibh maith agat as iad a chur ar mo shúile mar ní raibh tuairim dá laghad agam go mbeadh breall agus mearbhall ar lucht comhairíochais thall mar a bhíonn abhus.

Ní mé an mbeidh tú ag bailiú tuairimí uainne anois le iadsan a mhúineadh chomh maith?

Tá rannóg don Ghaeilge ag P.ie go fóill agus tá daoine meabhracha dearfacha ann (is léir nár cuireadh an baoite rompu siúd nó má cuireadh níor tógadh é) ach mo léan, d'imigh cuid mhaith díobh arú anuraidh, san uair a cuireadh cosc ar an dátheangachas poiblí. Mo ghraidhn é Caoimhín s'againne nár rinne aithris orthu!

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4300
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK-QIDzTdso

Ar thug sibh faoi deara go ndeir siad "on me" san amhrán seo? Tá dul na Gaeilge air sin! Gruaim, éadóchas agus crá orm.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1352
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 08:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

go deimhin...bhí mórán inmirceach Éireannaigh sna Sleibhte Appalachia...

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member
Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 566
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 09:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá dul na Gaeilge air sin!

Nach bhfuil cool sé sin? Agus mar sin de tá sé dhá cuí!

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Taig (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 10:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine,

You said the following:

"bhí mórán inmirceach Éireannaigh sna Sléibhte Appalachia". Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

(Message edited by admin on November 25, 2008)

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 176
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 07:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

They are but the opinions from various people on an Irish political forum, Domhnall. Don't shoot the messenger. You'll notice that some are quite positive, a couple are outright hostile, and others are a mixture of both. For example the people who posted comments about the decline in the Gaeltacht all the while contrasting it with the revival in urban areas and the goodwill that many have for the language.

Hey everyone! Look, I've got a youtube clip too! Reinforcing stereotypes is fun! Is that Smac_muirí in the clip? ;p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFSjp4pzbZ8

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 09:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Dhanny! Rinne mé an iarracht ar an Youtube clip sin a faigh an tseachtain seo caite, ach ní raibh mé abalta. Tá sé an-ghreannmhar dar liomsa.

Anois cén chaoi a deirfeá "clip" as Gaeilge? Ní bheadh an tUasal Mac Giolla Crailleacháin sásta leis na focail Bearla. :)

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on November 25, 2008)

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Antaine
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Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 09:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Taig:
"bhí mórán inmirceach Éireannaigh sna Sléibhte Appalachia"

I may have screwed this up trying to say it as Gaeilge. I didn't know it was in any doubt that one of the first waves of Irish immigration to what would one day become the US took place in the early-mid 1700s and settled in the frontier (then the Appalachians), leaving their mark on the region's accent and music. The idea that there would be residual Gaelic influences either into subsequent regional English, or at least have influenced the English the Scots-Irish brought with them (subsequently influencing the regional English there now) is not unreasonable.

something like this:
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2004-12/2004-12-13-voa66.cfm

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Danny2007
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Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 10:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think there's another sketch where the guy switches the English language road signs warning about dangerous cliffs to Irish ones...resulting in various fiery crashes. :D

quote:

or at least have influenced the English the Scots-Irish brought with them (subsequently influencing the regional English there now)


This seems more likely. Wouldn't many of them have spoken a form of Scots (also sometimes known as braid Scots, Lallans, Doric or Ullans (in Ulster)... as opposed to English? (thus potentially opening up the debate of whether Scots is actually a language itself or a distinct dialect of English.)

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Antaine
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Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 11:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

my understanding is that gaelic (the divergence between ulster Irish and scottish was not so great then) was still spoken even by the many of the planters, who would have, a few generations later, been the appalachian immigrants

any figures on # of speakers (both ireland and scotland) broken down by religion and location for the late 1600s and early 1700s readily accessable online?

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Danny2007
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If only. I doubt it. The earliest surveys on language in Ireland that I'm aware of are those carried out by Wakefield in 1799.

That said, there have been some interesting articles which focus on particular regions and devote some time to the interplay between language and various Christian denominations.

The Irish Language in County Down by Ciarán Ó Duibhín is one such article.
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/oirthear/down.doc

There's also the book: Hidden Ulster, Protestants and the Irish Language by Pádraig Ó Snodaigh (which I have yet to read).

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/61/297.html

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 11:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I think there's another sketch where the guy switches the English language road signs warning about dangerous cliffs to Irish ones...resulting in various fiery crashes. :D


Tá sin ag cur "Chóras Loingseoireachta Comhphobail" as an Bhreatain Bheag i gcuimhne dhom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0HpCXydbvQ

Cá luaithe a bheidh leagan Gaelach ann? An dtiocfaidh sé amach luath go leor go bhféadfaimís é a thabhairt do Dhanny mar bhronntanas Nollag?

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Taig (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The book "Irish Dialects and Irish-Speaking Districts" by Brian Ó Cuív mentions the use of Irish among Protestants. Refering to language use in Co. Cork (Kilgeriff) "Catholics speak Irish; Protestants speak Irish and English."
In Donegal (Inver) "Irish spoken by Catholics and by most of the Protestants."
He also quotes Stokes and Wakefield references to the Connaght gentry acquiring Irish to deal with the peasantry. The Statistical Survey (1812) Antrim: "All speak English, but the descendants of the first settlers speak a dialect of Celtic". I think he is referring to the Highlanders of the Glens of Antrim.
Wakefield again, referring in general terms to the four northern counties of Antrim, Armagh, Derry and Down, says that the Catholics 'who reside in the mountainous districts'...'retain the ancient Irish language and to them it is chiefly confined.' It sounds to me that the Protestants used Irish to communicate with the Catholics.
In other words the Catholics had monoglots and bilinguals and the Protestants had bilinguals but no Gaelic monoglots (excepting Antrim). I have always wondered about Ó Snodaigh's objectivity on the subject, at any rate. I do enjoy Kila, however, and buy all their albums.

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Danny2007
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Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 02:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's an excellent book, isn't it Taig? Great read.

quote:

An dtiocfaidh sé amach luath go leor go bhféadfaimís é a thabhairt do Dhanny mar bhronntanas Nollag?


Aistrigh, led' thoil?

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Antaine
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Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 09:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Does anyone know when there came to be a formal distinction made between Irish and Scottish?

I get the feeling that, even long after the languages had begun to diverge, it was all just called "Gaelic"...not only by english speakers, but the Irish and Scots as well...

I'm thinking late 19th century/early 20th century...there may be scattered references in print to "the Irish language" earlier than that, but at times when, had you asked the writers, "And what is the Irish language?" they'd've answered, "Gaelic, same as Scotland."

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Aonghus
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Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 10:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No. The terms changed several times.
Gaelic came into use in English later, as part of teh effort to drive a wedge between the people and the language.

From "A Veue of The Present State of Ireland" by Spenser (1596)

"And first I have to find faulte with the abuse of language, that is, for the speaking of Irishe amongst the English, which as it is unnaturall that any people should love another language more then ther owne, soe it is very inconvenient, and the cause of many other evills."

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/E500000-001/index.html

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Antaine
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Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 05:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, but it is my understanding that in the 1500s, even the 1600s, that the languages were mutually intelligible such that modern linguists would not have separated them when classifying...so simply using the term "Irish" isn't the indicator I was looking for.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 05:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Let's take this to another thread!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 02:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Aistrigh, led' thoil?


Déanfad é agus fáilte. "Rhyddheuir e digon buan y byddwn ni'n gallu ei roi i Dhanny fel anrheg Nadolig?"

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Trigger
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 03:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You know Danny don't understand a lot of Irish now you are doing it to him in a complete different one.

Domhnailín in all fairness, would you like it if someone kept on speaking to you in a language you don't understand even if you ask for a translation politely?

Danny has kindly asked not to be spoken from paragraph to paragraph in Irish, yet people still continue.

Give him a break.

gaeilgeoir.blogspot.com

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Abigail
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 03:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thrigger, thug muid uilig aistriúcháin dó ar dtús - ag iarraidh tuiscint dó agus é a spreagadh - agus cén toradh a bhí air sin againn, meas tú, ach gur mhaígh sé nárbh fhiú dó an teanga a fhoghlaim. Agus tá an ceart ar fad aige... ní fiú dó an teanga a fhoghlaim, a fhad is a bhítear i gcónaí gcónaí ag tabhairt aistriúchán dó!

Caithfear stad den aistriú nó is léir nach bhfhoghlaimeoidh sé choíche. Níl go leor spéise aige sa nGaeilge ar a son féin len é a spreagadh go fóill. Sin ráiteas a bhéil féin. B'fhéidir go mbeidh ar ball - tá súil agam go mbeidh - ach níl anois. Caithfear é a thiomáint anois, agus sin atá ar bun againn. Má ghoilleann sé air is é an trua é ach níl mé le béas a athrú. Ar mhaithe leis féin agus ar mhaithe leis an teanga atáim.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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déiri.. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 03:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

mol a dheireadh!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 05:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Domhnailín in all fairness, would you like it if someone kept on speaking to you in a language you don't understand even if you ask for a translation politely?


Bhraithfeadh sé sin ar an gcomhthéacs. An mbeinn ar chlár atá go sainráite's go speisialta ann chun úsáid na teanga san a chur chun cinn?

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Danny2007
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 02:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks, Trigger. That's a very reasonable viewpoint.

So, did Abigail or Domhnaillín post anything juicy or relevant? Me thinks I'm still getting "punished". What was that you once said about "unduly hindering communication", Abigail?

Look at these fanatical gaeilgoirí! So dedicated to the cause! What courage it takes to resist using the oppressors tongue! Onwards ye gallant soldiers! ;D

(Message edited by Danny2007 on November 29, 2008)

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Ormondo
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 09:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What courage it takes to resist using the oppressors tongue! Onwards ye gallant soldiers! ;D



Danny007, would you please refrain from using arcane symbols in your postings. You put the heart across me there; I thought for a second you had self-destructed or something at the end of that load. (If ;D ≠ self-destruct, please provide correct translation, le d'thoil).

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 01:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má bhíonn tú liom
bí liom os comhair lán an tí.
Má bhíonn tú liom
bí liom de ló geal is oíche.
Má bhíonn tú liom
bí liom gach orlach de do chroí.

ón leagan álainn de Casadh an tSúgáin le Lasairfhíona.

Is léir dúinn nach bhfuil an Danny seo linne ar chor ar bith. Tá sé mar a bheadh an madra sa mhainséar (i gcead do Aesop) -- nó mar a bheadh tarbh bán Mhuisire. Tá a lán againn bréan de.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Curiousfinn
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 03:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ormondo (how to slederize this?), a chara...

If you turn your display on its right side (or tilt your head 90 degrees left) you will see that...

;D and :D are faces, smiling mouth wide open. ;D winks an eye, :D doesn't.

;B) and :B) are the same, as well as ;BD and :BD, but these have eyeglasses, and the other variation has the mouth shut.

:B( is a sad face...

:) and :( without glasses, mouth shut

B) and B( with glasses covering eyes

:BP is a variation with tongue sticking out...

;B).. has drool dripping out...

Then... pB( ...A mo Dhia, tá tua agam i mo cheann!

There's a load of others. But they aren't arcane, they are rather international, and they are primarily intended to be humorous. Your mileage may vary.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on November 29, 2008)

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Antaine
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 03:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

don't forget the crying frown )-; and the raspberry :-P

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Ormondo
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 04:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A Ormondo (how to slenderize this?), a chara...

If you turn your display on its right side (or tilt your head 90 degrees left) you will see that...



quote:

don't forget the crying frown )-; and the raspberry :-P



(Thank you sincerely for your kind intentions.)

But the question is: how could I ever be expected to make the effort to learn all of that?

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Curiousfinn
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 05:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Now that you know what to look for when you find such a string of characters... try to look for face figures laid on their side. That's about it.

Theoretically this is ASCII drawing at micro level. The font used in rendition can affect the legiblity greatly. And, this forum doesn't use the best font, IMHO. Courier (in the preview) works fine, Times (?) in the thread body isn't as good.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 06:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhinn, a chara, níl mé cinnte ach creidim go raibh sé ag bheith go híorónta. ;)

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Ormondo
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 06:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhomhnaill, níl gá ar bith leis an gcreideamh; is leor duit an chinnteacht - agus GRMA.

[Ní raibh mé ach ag spreagadh Shéamais Ó Banna (007 agus an chuid eile).]

(Message edited by ormondo on November 29, 2008)

(Message edited by ormondo on November 29, 2008)

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Curiousfinn
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 07:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Domhnall:

creidim go raibh sé ag bheith go híorónta. ;)

Bhí mé freisin go híorónta, a chairde...

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 07:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah. Bhuel, tá brón orm. Is léir go bhfuil orm mo mhéadar tharcaisne a deisiú!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 02:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Máistir na healaíne aoire is ea ar nOrmondo. Is fearr duit gach uile freagairt de a léamh ina fhianaise seo.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 07:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is fearr duit gach uile freagairt de a léamh ina fhianaise seo.

An bhfuil nath cainte ann? Tá eagla orm nach dtuigim do bhrí anseo...

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 10:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl. Nílim ag rá ach go nuair bhíonn tú ag léamh na rudaí a scríobhann sé, coinnigh cuimhne gur dócha go bhfuil beagán grinn iontu.



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