Recently, I found myself in another interesting chat with a friend about the future of various languages around the world. And...I as I usually do, tried to convince him that Irish will be one of the languages that the children of the 22nd century will read about as either a complete success or a complete failure in terms of language revival efforts of the 21st century.

While we can both be labeled as "hibernophiles" if you accept this term, I feel that I might have more positive outlook for the language than he does.

What I found interesting is how he saw the current state of the language. I think a little inspired by Joyce, he likes to think of Irish and Ireland like a "Broken Mirror" as he likes to say it in his words. No matter how perfect the person is looking into the mirror, a broken mirror will always distort the image. And in his thinking, it is the same with Irish. Irish is like the person looking into the mirror, and the current state of Irish is the distorted image. To fix the problem we need a new mirror...

When I think about it, I like to say that Irish is a seed. The type of seed is not important, to some a beautiful flower, to others...a weed at best. But it is a seed. And like all seeds it will grow if it is planted in the correct soil. If Irish is not growing like we want it to, then we must look at the soil and find out what the problem is and add the proper nutrients.

How do people here see Irish and the current state of it? If you had to give some comparison like the ones above to explain the situation from your personal point of view in order to simplify it for someone who doesn't understand...how would you explain it to them?

''How do people here see Irish and the current state of it?''

We have discussed this to death...

Hmm. The Germans have a saying "Wie man im Wald hineinruft, so schallt es wieder hinaus"

I tend to adopt a more positive attitude than I absolutely feel with regard to Irish here, because too many people focus on the negative. I like to highlight the good news stories.

But I am still generally optimistic. I have access to more resources to pass Irish on to my children than my parents had. RnaG is younger than I am. TG Fóir is only a decade old, etc.

But the Gaeltacht is still slipping away.

''But the Gaeltacht is still slipping away.'

Right, I'd say that Irish is still strong/dominant (ie: still lasting) in the following areas:

Donegal: Gaoth Dobhair, Rann na Feirste, Oileán Thoraigh, Gort an Choirce
Mayo: Ceathrú Thaidhg (Mayo Gaeltacht almost gone)
Galway: Carna, Ros an mhíl, An Cheathrú Rua, Ros Muc, Leitir Mór, and Oileán Árann (An Spidéal to a certain extent)
Kerry: Dún Chaoin, Baile na nGall, Baile An Fheirtéaraigh
Cork: Cúil Aodha, Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh
Waterford: Gone
Meath: Rath Chairn to a certain extent

Areas where Irish is thriving for example, the Gaeltacht Quarter in West Belfast.

(Message edited by Trigger on November 06, 2008)

(Message edited by Trigger on November 06, 2008)

Mholfainn do chách an cheist a fhágáil faoin mbeirt is mó i ngá a cíortha.
B'fhéidir le Dia go gcorfaidh siad a chéile ar an dóigh sin, in áit an saol mór is an domhan donn a bhuaireamh leis mar scéal gan dealramh.

Trigger a chara,

I am not asking about the state of Irish per se...more about the method one uses to view the state of Irish.

I mean imagine this:

You are with a group of young children and one of them asks you "Why don't the Irish speak Irish?"

It is an simple question with a complicated answer. How do you break down such a complicated subject into something they can understand?

The manner in which you choose to answer that question will tell you many things about your personal views of the current situation.

quote:

"Why don't the Irish speak Irish?"

You're right. It is complicated and hard to deconstruct.

But I think you have to break down the decline of Irish and the shift to English into at least two distinct periods. Say...1600-1800AD and 1800 onwards. Although things that happened before the 17th century can't be discounted, either.

For the period before 1800, I can think of nothing better than "A pocket History of Gaelic Culture" by the Cork author and playwright Alan Titley. It's a fascinating read that devotes a lot of time to the language and the power struggles which ultimately lead to its decline.

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=4585

For the period after 1800, Díchoimisiúnú Teanga Coimisiun na Gaeltachta 1926 ("the 1926 Gaeltacht Commission report", Cois Life, Dublin, 2002) is an excellent BILINGUAL book by John Walsh from Fiontar, Dublin City University. What I enjoyed most about this book is that it includes all the original transcripts...based on the dozens of meetings and 100 interviews of Irish speakers which were carried out. It's the people in their own words given their own take on the state of Irish over eighty years ago. If only more of the Commission's recommendations had been implemented from the start!

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1840

Both of these are available at Litríocht.com, which is based near Baile na nGall, in the heart of the west Kerry Gaeltacht (Chorca Dhuibhne).


Personally, I believe it was this sense that emmigration was inevitable that ultimately lead to the rapid language shift that occurred around the time of the Great Famine. Remember that well over a million native speakers were alive in 1851 when the census was taken. It's generally agreed that the returns for the language section represent an underestimate. But as many people expressed to the Gaeltacht Commission, what use was Irish to them if they had to leave for England or America?

quote:

I do not think it is fair, and I claim strongly that that is the reason the people are turning so much to English that they have very little benefit to reap from the use of the Irish language. In fact they regard it as a badge of backwardness, slavery and poverty. The people are anxious to get out of the rut and they fail to see why they should keep on speaking Irish when there is nothing to be gained by it. It is not fair treatment to have higher education so far removed from the people of the Gaeltacht.

- Pádraig Mac Seáin, múinteoir, An Caiseal, Gleann Cholm Cille, Co. Dhún na nGall, 02.07.1925 p.83

quote:

The teachers are emigration agents. We are teaching for America...If the parents thought there would be a livelihood at home for their children they would use Irish as freely as they did thirty or forty years ago.

- Máire Ní Mhainín, múinteoir, Baile an Fheirtéaraigh, Co. Chiarraí, 01.10.1925 p. 76

quote:

In some Irish-speaking districts they want to throw away Irish as far as they can...They have written to the teachers saying they don't want their children to be taught at all...They know Irish themselves and they never gained anything from it. They feel that if the children knew more English they would get on better.

- An tAthair Tadhg Ó Cúrnáin, An Dromaid, Co. Chiarraí, 07.07.1925 p. 76


I think it all goes back to the overthrow of the "Gaelic Order" in the 16th and early 17th century, followed by the mass exodus of the top Ulster Gaels and their families in the "Flight of the Earls". Some might call it an abandonment.
For those who had Irish as their first (or more commonly, in those days) ONLY language, they were now in a position of utter weakness which would only get worse as time went on (Cromwellian resettlement, dispossession, Ulster Plantations, Penal Laws, famines, horrible economic conditions leading to mass emmigration to largely English speaking countries etc).

Alan Titley covers this in the chapter entitled "Fragmention and Retreat" in the book I mentioned above.

quote:

I'd say that Irish is still strong/dominant (ie: still lasting) in the following areas:

quote:

Cork: Cúil Aodha, Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh

Depends on your definition of strong. Cúil Aodha certainly does seem like the strongest Irish speaking area left in Cork. But compared to what and when? If I recall correctly, the number of daily speakers as of the most recent census was in the 25-30% range while the number of households with school aged kids was similar. In Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh it was more like 10-15% for both. Irish certainly isn't dominant today and hasn't been for a long time in either locale, if we believe what Brian Ó Cuív stated in 1949. (The Cork gaeltachtaí and, especially dialects, were his specialty)

quote:

Today Census Returns may lead unthinking people to believe that great strides are being made in the preservation of our language, but the facts are that Irish is no longer the every-day language of even one electoral division in Counties Cork, Waterford, or Clare ; that in Kerry the only area where it is extensively used is the western part of the Dingle Peninsula ; while in Galway, Mayo and Donegal, the districts where Irish is ordinarily used have been greatly reduced.

This coming from a man who devoted so much of his time traveling throughout county Cork taking note of the speech of people, both in the official gaeltacht of the time, and in places where it had effectively died out in the previous decades. That said, I'm surprised he would say that Irish wasn't the dominant language in even a single electoral division in Waterford. I thought An Rinn would have been very strong in those days. Anyway, that's his opinion and one which shouldn't be taken lightly.

A Danny,

LOL...do you have young children? I am not certain that is the approach or answer the average child is going to be able to handle. ;-)

However, I am happy to see that we have similar feelings about the history of the language up to the modern period. And it would also seem that you tend to take a chronological look at the language when thinking about how it found itself in the state it is.

So perhaps a comparison from your perspective would be something like:

"Irish is like a child who goes to war, and comes home different?"

If this is how a person would feel about the language, how would a person with this perspective of the language be labeled? Would they have a negative or positive outlook for the language?

While at first it might seem negative to most people. A person with this outlook might not see it that way. To them they are not being negative but realistic to the problem.

Do_chinniúint,

Oh yeah, I forgot about the children bit. Hehe. But I've been asked about my stints in Ireland and people often ask about accents and/or the language. Most have heard of this thing called "Gaelic" but they tend not to know anything about it. It's like this mysterious thing lost in the mists of time or something. Some certainly do wonder why most Irish people don't speak Irish. Others were unaware of the language at all and simply thought that Irish people have always spoken their own brand of English.

quote:

how would a person with this perspective of the language be labeled? Would they have a negative or positive outlook for the language?

Well, I mean, CLEARLY I'm a basement-dwelling monster who gets his kicks from dumping all over Irish on the "Internets". I peddle in negativity, death and agony (as one poster put it).

;p

But seriously...

I agree with what you're saying. I do believe I'm being realistic, as opposed to unnecessarily pessimistic. My views have been shaped by a combination of reading up on the relevant topics (the history of the language, the gaeltacht, census returns, SLG returns, sociolinguistic studies, various books and articles), chatting to Irish speakers during my travels, as well as over one month total travel time in different gaeltachtaí, and an additional two months living in Dún Chaoin in Kerry.

I didn't go into it assuming that Irish was ____________.

I think ones outlook also depends on which camp you fall into re: the Gaeltacht. Some consider its survival to be paramount above all else while I think others believe the future of the language lies in Ireland's urban areas and that the gaeltacht is now a secondary issue in this day and age.

quote:

It is the Gaeltacht, above all else, that gives the language its authority as a national undertaking and the destruction of that Gaeltacht will herald the final and ultimate destruction of that authority.

Also..

quote:

If we argue, however, that it is the Gaeltacht that gives the entire language movement its moral right to promote the language on a national scale then if that Gaeltacht disappears, are not Irish speakers - despite their funding, their numbers and their legal protections - little more than the enthusiasts for Manx or Cornish, people who seek to revive a language that has no native speakers?

- Pól Ó Muiri

http://www.drb.ie/more_details/08-09-21/look_west.aspx

(He goes on to say that the future of the Gaeltacht is not sealed, so don't assume the worst. And Manx actually has a new generation of bilingual native speakers thanks to the all-Manx school on the Island. They now number in the dozens.)

An síor scrúdu iarbháis ar an nGaeilge ar siúl arís?

The Cork Gaedhaelthachtaidhe were important, even vital, to the survival of good Irish, as they were the only areas where standard Irish was spoken as a matter of course. The collapse of those areas has left Cockney Galway as the best option for the survival of Irish.

Tabhartais don Bhéarla ón nGearmáinis is iad na focail nó leagain chainte cosúil le "Weltschmerz" (pian saoil) agus "Götterdämmerung" (crónú na ndéithe) agus iad in ann staideanna éagsúla a léiríú níos beaichte ná na focail chomhfhreagracha gaolmhara i mBéarla.

Ach, a Dhia na bhFeart, ní leor an méid atá ann go dtí seo chun an staid sin a léiriú a "néaltógtar" daoine éagsúla isteach ann nuair a bhíonn siad ag cíoradh síorbháis na Gaeilge. Is gá, dár ndóigh, ceann eile a fháil ar iasacht.

Is é an ceann atá aimsithe agam dó ná "Untergangsektase". Cad é an Ghaeilge ar sin?

Riastradh turnaimhe

nó

Meathriastradh

seans

Ciallaíon "riastradh" go bhfuil lucht an turnaimh casta agus as a riocht, is dócha, agus lúcháir an mheatha orthu.

(Cad mar gheall ar "lúcháir mheatha"?)

Ar an taobh eile, tá bua an fhocail aonair ag "meathriastradh".

Cén Ghaeilge atá ar taphophile?

Seo focal deas: comhairíoch. Tá sé in FGB. Lucht comhairíochais iad, is dócha.

Sin é go díreach! Comhairíochas. Is é comhairíochas a bheadh i gceist nuair a théann an comhairíoch thar cuimse leis na comhairithe agus an rud go léir is mó mar chaitheamh aimsire ná mar dhualgas aige.

Is é an phríomhaidhm ag an taphophile agus é i mbun na taphophilia (baininscneach, an ea?) ach Lustgewinn a bhaint amach as, nach ea?

Agus is é Lustgewinn ceann de na focail nach bhfuil na leaganacha éigin a fheictear i mBéarla dó i ngar do bheith sásúil. Diúltaíonn WordReference.com fiú aistriúchán ar bith a thabhairt dó.

"Sultsochar" atá againn sa Ghaeilge, nó a bhíonn againn - nuair a bhainimid úsáid aisti.

Focla maithe iad! GRMA.

My little brother is six now and he is clever and I love him dearly. He has been told by me that not everyone in Ireland speaks Irish, just some people. When the day comes and he asks me why this is I'll probably simply say that the Irish just don't understand how important and wonderful their language is and so many of them don't speak it and that is sad. It may not be a technical answer replete with historical references and exact quotes from scholars but it will be something that Raven will understand. So I suppose that is an answer to your question, a Dho chiniuint.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Dála an scéil, Ríona Raven = Fiach , a well established personal name in Ireland.
Also Bran but nowadays that is usually used for dogs, not people!

A Riona,

once upon a time, many years ago, a nasty current swept me out over a mile from the Clare coast. Exhausted, I thought to myself: What's the point of swimming, I'm exhausted and I'm going down anyway. But I swam, and swam... (and I didn't dare not to).

Agus anois, na blianta fada dár gcionn? Bhuel, tá an Ghaeilge fós ag stealladh amach asam!


Faoi mar a dúirt Barack Obama:

"Yes, we can!"


(Agus faoi mar a dúirt Aonghus:

"Cinnte, féadaimid!")



If Raven is taught some Gaeilge, then he will understand.

Seasaigí an fód, beir bua agus beannacht

A chairde,

I try with him, he knows a couple of things and he's used to hearing things but I'm afraid he is crummy at languages since he has a bad habbit of not paying attention and not listening well. But we'll keep trying. My mother and her husband were able to adopt him in June after him living with us since Feb. of 2006 when he was taken from his mother because of neglect. Since we'd known him since he was born it was a fairly easy transition to go from visiting us to living with us and he's happy that now I'm his real sister and that he can be with us for always. I couldn't ask for a better little one to love, especially since I'm not going to have any of my own so he gets all the affection I have. I do wish he had better language retention skills though. :) :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

Ó tharla Fiach agus Ríona a bheith i SAM, ní bheidh an comhairíochas ag cuir isteach air!

attempt: Since it happens that Fiach and Riona live in the States there won't be ... services put in place like those that are inside (Eire)????

Doesn't seem right, especially since there is an exclamation mark and what I came up with doesn't seem worthy of exclaiming but that is the best that me and my FP can muster at present.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

ní bheidh an comhairíochas ag cuir isteach air!

You need to look higher up in the thread.
"comhairíochas" is the practice of excessively attending funerals - i.e. given way to doom & gloom about the language.

Oh, okay, GRMA, now that you mention it I do see it up there.

Beir bua agus beannacht