Given a general tendency for Protestantism to champion localism in many countries, is there a case for that a widespread conversion to Protestantism in Ireland would have acted as a bulwark against the spread of English, or to use a counter argument, would it have in fact sped it up?

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Given a general tendency for Protestantism to champion localism in many countries

Sin claonadh, an ea? An féidir leat samplaí a thabhairt?

Am I allowed to respond in English?

It would have sped it up, in my opinion. Most Protestants in Ireland never spoke Irish natively. Certainly some Scots "dissenters" did (if you consider it Irish Gaelic due to the mutual intelligibility amongst many of the dialects at the time of the Ulster Plantations, for example), but most didn't.

Most of the so-called Old English/Normans became Gaelicised. In fact, many never adopted English...making the switch from Norman French to Irish generally by the late 14th century. And they were largely Catholic too.

In the end, it was the bulk of the Catholic population which decided to abandon Irish anyway. Parts of the country haven't been predominantly Irish speaking since the late 1600s.

The Irish intelligentsia at the time of the reformation was inclined towards reform. What might have happened if the Tudors and the Roundheads didn't start an racist backlash is an interesting question, but hard to predict.

If Gaelic Ireland had embraced reform, there would still have been tensions with the feudal nature of Tudor rule.

The Battle of Kinsale might still have happened.

But it might not - and a Protestant, Gaelic ruling class might have emerged.

But this is all speculation.

I seems to me that Protestantism did not preserve Scots Gaelic, after all, the campaign to convert came from the anglophone Lowlands, the Welsh situation was different: the language was aided by the Noncomforming churches as well as a Welsh Bible. The Welsh language still declined to 15-20% of the population. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer (in English) was imposed on Cornwall and was probably instrumental in the decline of Cornish. The very un-Gaelic orthography of Manx is based on a Protestant translation of the Bible and, if you are familiar with the spelling probably don't wonder why it died out. Scots Gaelic survived in Barra, S. Uist and Benbecula - all Catholic areas. The Bretons are Catholic and have the largest number of speakers of any Celtic language, even though it has been discouraged by the secular French government. And lastly, even though the language declined among Irish Catholics they were still the majority of Gaeilgeoirí.

I would tend towards what Aonghus has said. Ireland was always booty to be exploited, sooner or later, by the oligarchy in power in England. It was a question of the stronger military entity satisfying its need for power and wealth irregardless of language and religion. The indigenous landowners would have been driven out in any case, no matter what language they spoke, or religion they professed.

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Am I allowed to respond in English?

Arbh fhéidir go fiú go mbeifeá in ann d'fhreagairt ar aon dóigh eile?

Lads, cop yeirselves on, and don't start this again. Domhnaillín why not use simpler Irish and Danny, try to meet half way -civil war does us no good. There is value in answering in each langauge

IMO, no form of christianity ever did much good to preserve old languages and culture as it spread...

A Bheirn, cad é an Ghaelainn a bheadh simplí go leor go bhféadfadh sé í a thuiscint? Bhaineamair triail as gach éinní agus é gan fhreagair riamh.

I have to disagree with you, Curious Finn.
At least in Ireland, much of the old lore was preserved by Christian scribes.

And the translations by Reformers of the Bible wewre important in forming the modern written languages of many European languages.

Tugaim faoi deara gur thuig sé an 'aontaím leat' úd a chaith Ormondo leis, nuair ab éigean dó. Ní hionadh liom nár thuig sé an chuid eile, mar tosaitheoir a bhí ann go fóill nuair a d'imigh a spéis. Ach ba chóir go mbeadh frásaí simplí mar sin ar a chumas pé scéal é

An fiú do theanga féin a shimpliú ar mhaithe lena leithéid a ghríosadh, sin í an cheist. B'fhéidir é, má mheas tú é a bheith inghríosaithe chor ar bith.

Aontaighm le Aonghus, about translations and writing down of legendry helping cultures/languages, ta an ceart aige.

Agus ta an ceart ag Bearn, lets get along and leave petiness out of this, we are all grown here, as far as I know.

Beir bua agus beannacht

You are probably right in this, Aonghus, perhaps Ireland did benefit in a way or another. And we too did get a reformed and unified official language, but only after Michael Agricola thought "That who knows human mind, must know Finnish language". Before that, the church institution promoted other languages... OTOH, it also played its role when Finland was being tossed between Sweden and Russia, perhaps also to our benefit. But there are cases in the past where religion (not only christian, though) has been used as a tool of exploitation and destruction.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on November 05, 2008)

Ceist hipitéiseach faoi chineál ábhair a bhfuil cúiseanna casta dothuartha go deo ag baint lena fhorbairt stairiúil. Ní féidir a lán a rá faoi.

If memory serves me correct, after a time, the RCC in Ireland did work to discourage insistence on the Irish language for fear that being seen as "other" and "resisting" anglicization would bring down the wrath of the crown again...the central concern was securing the free practice of Catholicism in Ireland (souls before tongues). Thus there was stress on the "loyalty" of Catholics and their capacity to be good british subjects.

But the protestant church there was a national church (an offshoot of the national church of england), and part of an effort to squeeze the gael out of the Irishman, and secure them as willing (or at least docile) british subjects...either way, the language was going to get the shaft.

Nearing and after independence, however, the RCC (the Christian Brothers in particular) did do things to preserve and encourage the language, but only after much of the damage was already done...

"A Bheirn, cad é an Ghaelainn a bheadh simplí go leor go bhféadfadh sé í a thuiscint? "

Níl a fhios 'am...ach níl aon brabach againn bheith ag troid ar Dhaltaí.

B'fhearr liom dá mbeadh gach duine anseo ag foghlaim Gaeilge freisin, ach níl an cás sin. Is mó thuirim go bhfuil an áit go leor dalba is féidir go bhfuil gach barúil féideartha agus fáilte anseo, i dteanga ar bith, má bhíonn sí bainteach leis an nGaeilg.

Nach bhfuil muid i gcuman?

Nach raibh tú ag foghlaim Gaeilge Uladh a Bhearn?

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Scots Gaelic survived in Barra, S. Uist and Benbecula - all Catholic areas.

It's also interesting to note that the most vibrant Scottish Gaelic speaking area today is largely Presbyterian, if i recall correctly. (Eilean Leòdhais...the Isle of Lewis in the Hebrides....)

Article here:
Volume 13: Eilean Leòdhas: An Taobh Siar & Nis (Isle of Lewis: Westside & Ness)

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The area between Shawbost and Ness on the Atlantic side of Lewis is traditionally seen as a major stronghold of Gaelic. Since 1981, however, this situation has slowly declined despite some commendable educational activities focussing on the communities of Lionel and Borve. Ness as the northernmost part of Lewis still remains a comparatively strong part of the "Gaelic-speaking heartland" but deterioration tendencies are clearly seen in Westside especially in Arnol and Bragar.

http://www.linguae-celticae.org/dateien/Gaidhlig_Local_Studies_Vol_14_Am_Bac_An_ Rubha_Ed_II.pdf

http://www.linguae-celticae.org/GLS_english.htm


The Irish Language in County Down is a fascinating article by Ciarán Ó Duibhín which devotes some time to the issue of Protestant speakers in the region.

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/oirthear/down.doc

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The Presbyterian Church, with its strong Scottish connections, had no reservations about the use of Gaelic. The Belfast Synod of 1710, for example, sent out six ministers and three probationers to preach in Irish all over Ulster. Interestingly, they also arranged that congregations who wanted Irish-speaking ministers ‘are to exchange members with those who can speak Irish

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Public preaching may be directed to any and all sections of the population, but the use of Gaelic inside Protestant churches can only mean that a large part of those particular congregations were Gaelic speakers. Were they planters who came from Scotland already speaking Gaelic; or planters who came speaking English but adopted the language of the natives; or Irish-speaking natives who converted to Protestantism in the early days of the plantation? It is probable that all three explanations are involved.

"Nach raibh tú ag foghlaim Gaeilge Uladh a Bhearn?"

Is fiu i ngach canuint, gan dabht. Togha agus rogha me i gcuige Chonnacht, da bhri sin, spota beag laidir im chroi leis an teanga sin, ach thug me cuairt ar na daoine i nGleann Finne dhá shamhradh seo caite, agus is maith liom á gcaint mar sin

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Aonghus: The Irish intelligentsia at the time of the reformation was inclined towards reform.

That's very interesting. Where did you get that information?

I'm afraid I can't give you chapter and verse; I read it somewhere. But consider that Bedell only commisioned the Bible translation; others did the actual work.

Also, I think the intelligentsia of Europe was interested in Reform (and the Church badly needed it) - even though major figures like Erasmus eventually didn't break with Rome; and at the beginning it was a religuous movement everywhere before it became complicated with politics.

Nowhere more so in these islands - the title "Defender of the Faith" still used by the English Monarch was granted by the Pope to Henry the VIII - for a book he wrote condemning Luther....

Bedell was not the primary translator but he did have an active role in editing. I can hunt up the details tonight.

One good book on this stuff (although it's a history book, he doesn't do counterfactuals) is "I bPrionta i Leabhar" by Nicholas Williams.

(Message edited by Abigail on November 06, 2008)

Ah Bearn you are from Connacht? I thought you from Antrim...

Ive often wondered if Ireland would have become Protestant if it hadn't been for English interference. Scotland did, although it was very much based in the Lowlands of course.