I hope I’m not too much of an annoyance with all my questions.

Anyway, so my first question has to do with the numbers used with nouns. In my book Learning Irish, it says that for the numbers from 11 to 19, the lenited form dhéag is used after a vowel ending noun. Now I was wondering does ‘déag’ also lenite after a noun which is spelt with a final consonant but with a vowel pronounced ending? For example, would you say ‘trí mhadadh dhéag’ or ‘trí mhadadh déag’ for 13 dogs?

Does the word scóir, as in example cheithre scóir ‘80’, lenite a following noun? I would have assumed so because it is a noun ending in a final slender consonant but I don’t know.

Now for my last question, could a sentence like ‘tá sé dhá bhualadh’ equally both mean ‘he is being hit’ and ‘he is hitting himself’? What if I said ‘tá sé dhá bhualadh féin’ what would that mean? I’m thinking that last sentence would probably carry the reflexive meaning of ‘he is hitting himself’ but I’m unsure of this. Unfortunately, although being a great book, Learning Irish sometimes cuts short in grammatical explanations.

Thank you very much in advance for your kind help!

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Now for my last question, could a sentence like ‘tá sé dhá bhualadh’ equally both mean ‘he is being hit’ and ‘he is hitting himself’? What if I said ‘tá sé dhá bhualadh féin’ what would that mean

Déarfainnse:
Tá sé (dh)á bhualadh = He's being hit / He's hitting himself (e.g. Seán is hitting Séamus)
Tá sé (dh)á bhualadh féin = He's hitting himself

Lars

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Now I was wondering does ‘déag’ also lenite after a noun which is spelt with a final consonant but with a vowel pronounced ending? For example, would you say ‘trí mhadadh dhéag’ or ‘trí mhadadh déag’ for 13 dogs?

I find the spoke language takes charge in matters like this. For instance, I instinctively say "an honest man" instead of "a honest man". Now since we learn to speak before we learn to write, I don't see how it could have came to be that people wouldn't lenite "déag" after "madadh"... but then again I'm always open to correction if some native/immersed speakers would like to chime in!

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Does the word scóir, as in example cheithre scóir ‘80’, lenite a following noun? I would have assumed so because it is a noun ending in a final slender consonant but I don’t know.

I get the feeling it wouldn't, because only the 10 decimal digits tend to lenite, e.g.:

fiche bord
tríocha buidéal
céad geansaí
míle punt

...but of course again I'm open to..

quote:

Now for my last question, could a sentence like ‘tá sé dhá bhualadh’ equally both mean ‘he is being hit’ and ‘he is hitting himself’? What if I said ‘tá sé dhá bhualadh féin’ what would that mean? I’m thinking that last sentence would probably carry the reflexive meaning of ‘he is hitting himself’ but I’m unsure of this. Unfortunately, although being a great book, Learning Irish sometimes cuts short in grammatical explanations.

This one really wrecked my head and it was impossible to get a straight answer out of anyone. Anyway, just from hearing/reading people use the construct "á bhualadh", I've seen that it has both meanings. For instance:

A Sheáin stop ag bualadh do dhéarthar, ná bí á chrá!
Seán stop hitting your brother, don't be annoying him! (We actually say "don't be annoying him" in Dublin, I'm not sure if other dialects of English do)

And then you have cases such as:

Bhí mé ag féachaint ar na hoibrithe nuair a bhí an bóthar á thógáil
I was watching the workers when the road was being built

For some who's not immersed in the language, this can be really frustrating to get a handle on. It really seems like the most ambiguous construct you'd ever come across, but people use it and get away with it. Maybe they even make nice puns out of it, who knows?

And then of course you have the "self action" or whatever you wanna call it:

Tá sé á ithe féin = He's eating himself

From the Jack London translation:
"Bhí stáblaí móra ann, agus dhá chloiginn déag eachlach eadar fhir agus ghasraí ag freastal ionnta",

""don't be annoying him""

In the country, yes, but more frequently 'don't be at him' (ag a chra??)

Another side note is on 'a dheanamh' vs 'á dheanamh' (sorry no fadas on this work machine: the former is for an infinitive (as you expect in Irish with verbal nouns) and the latter is when you have an object:
ba cheart duit do cheachtanna a dheanamh
Taim á dheanamh!

Sorry misread -the first part is not important

Mh’anam go bhfuil togha ceisteanna agat, a chara! Chaithfinn rud beag taighde a dhéanamh. I dtaca le “déag” agus ainmfhocla a chríochnaíonns le guthaí sa gcaint ach leitreochaí consain sa scríbhinn: ní móide go mbeifeá sa mícheart agus tú ag tíocht leis an bhfuaimniú. Níl ann ach tuairimíocht. Sé sin “trí mhadadh dhéag” a mholaimse (ach os a choinne sin – ós i gConamara atá muid – tá somplacha go leor in aghaidh na rialach a bhfuil bunús foghraíocht léithe – cuir i gcás, “francaigh mhóra” a bheadh acubsan sa taobh úd tíre).

Maidir le ainmfhocal i ndiaidh “trí scóir”, tá chuile chosúlacht ann nach séimhítear é, agus is féidir idir an t-iolra agus an t-ainmneach uatha a chur air: “trí scóir bliain” agus “trí scóir blianta”. Le fírinne, insna foinsí de Ghaeilge Chonamara a mbainim úsáid mar thagairt astu, deabhal sompla a bhfuair mé den fhoirm “scóir” roimh ainmfhocal (agus is iomú cás a bhfuil a leitheidí de “sé scóir is ceann” ann). Ceapaim féin go ndéanfaí trácht ar shéimhiú i lorg “scóir” dhá mbeadh sé sin ann.

Le meas

Go raibh maith agaibh! I really appreciate all your interesting replies to my (boring) questions.

quote:

Now since we learn to speak before we learn to write, I don't see how it could have came to be that people wouldn't lenite "déag" after "madadh"

I would have thought so myself, and it really seems like the most natural outcome and déag should lenite, ach níl mé cinnte an bhfuil an ceart agam?

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I get the feeling it wouldn't, because only the 10 decimal digits tend to lenite

Another, reason why I would be lead into thinking that scóir should lenite a following noun is because, as is said in my book, it lenites the word déag as in example 'trí scóir dhéag'

quote:

Mh’anam go bhfuil togha ceisteanna agat, a chara! Chaithfinn rud beag taighde a dhéanamh[...]leitheidí de “sé scóir is ceann” ann). Ceapaim féin go ndéanfaí trácht ar shéimhiú i lorg “scóir” dhá mbeadh sé sin ann.

I feel very sorry to be asking this Peter but as mo chuid Gaeilge still quite at the beginner level I have the hardest time ever trying to guess what your are saying. Would you or anyone kindly resume what he said above? Damn Béarla!!! One day hopefully I'll be able to write and speak as Gaeilge.

quote:

Tá sé (dh)á bhualadh = He's being hit / He's hitting himself (e.g. Seán is hitting Séamus)
Tá sé (dh)á bhualadh féin = He's hitting himself

tigim anois!

quote:

I feel very sorry to be asking this Peter but as mo chuid Gaeilge still quite at the beginner level I have the hardest time ever trying to guess what your are saying. Would you or anyone kindly resume what he said above? Damn Béarla!!! One day hopefully I'll be able to write and speak as Gaeilge.

No problem! I just feel like writing in Irish, especially answering in Connemara Irish to someone who studies this variety.

Indeed you’ve got great questions! I had to do a little bit of research. As regards “déag” and nouns ending in vowels in speech but consonant letters in writing, it is unlikely that you will be wrong if you follow pronunciation. It is only guesswork. That is, I suggest “trí mhadadh dhéag” (however, on the other hand – if we are speaking about Connemara – there are a lot of examples against the rule based on pronunciation – e.g., they would say “francaigh mhóra”).

As for nouns following “trí scóir”, it is highly likely that they do not get lenited and it is possible to use either plural or nominative singular: “trí scóir bliain” and “trí scóir blianta”. To tell the truth, in the sources of Connemara Irish that I use for reference, I haven’t found a single example of the “scóir” form before a noun (in many cases there are things like “sé scóir is ceann” 121). I actually believe that they would have mentioned lenition following “scóir” if it really was there.

Go raibh maith agat, a Pheter!

I really appreciate you translating back the text and answering my pointy questions. As for your explanations, they seem to make the most sense, and I'll stick to them.

I must admit though that it's pretty incredible that there doesn't seem to be any resources that addresses the problem of “trí mhadadh d(h?)éag”. I know it's a minor problem but I have the impression that this only goes to show how the Irish language lacks good teaching resources. I mean, one day I really hope to speak Gaeilge fluently, but how am I to that if there aren't any good books or materials out there who fully address in depth all aspects of Irish grammar? Sometimes, learning Gaeilge really feels like an endless painstaking struggle. All the same, it's a fight I'm willing to take all the way!

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I mean, one day I really hope to speak Gaeilge fluently, but how am I to that if there aren't any good books or materials out there who fully address in depth all aspects of Irish grammar?

By talking to fluent speakers. It's the only way to become fluent in a living language in any case.

quote:

By talking to fluent speakers. It's the only way to become fluent in a living language in any case.

But there are not many fluent Irish speakers this near to the Urals, and I'm pretty sure it's not much better up in the Rockies.

My expedient, nay, my solution to the problem: listen to RnaG and (agus tosnaíonn an aisling…) read the verbatim transcripts regularly made available on the website. Now, I don't know who actually began producing these transcripts, but they are comprehensive, including what we would call in Irish a "Gluais". Explanations regarding grammar and other such subjects are thrown in when deemed appropriate.

The very wise people in Foras na Gaeilge came, once upon a time, to the conclusion after spending decades and millions building half-way houses for invariable dereliction that they should maybe spend a wee fraction of that money and expend a miniscule amount of that energy on one very effective method.

It was an immediate success! And a great help to learners, re-learners and permanent refreshers (tautologically speaking: 99% of Gaeilgeoirí outside the Gaeltacht) who had the basics or who were reasonably good - or even better.

Tens of thousands of the aforesaid duly began to listen to podcasts of Nuacht a hAon and such like while simultaneously reading the excellent transcripts. They discovered that week by week they were comprehending more and more and, driven on by the constant encouragement of success, they bridged that most important of gaps in the learning process of any language on the way to eventual fluency in speech (and then rode off into the evening sunset): they had become fluent comprehenders of the spoken word and fluent comprehenders and practitioners of the written word.

It was rumoured years later that in the ensuing decades various Ministers for Gaeltacht Affairs would wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night at the thought that “The Transcript Breakthrough” (as it was known by then) had never been devised.

And, mind you, it wasn’t only love of the Irish language and the fears, in retrospect, for its inevitable extinction without “The Transcript Breakthrough” that put those Ministers for Gaeltacht Affairs into a cold sweat. You see, the whole thing had become so successful that by then the designation “Ministers for Gaeltacht Affairs” was equivalent to…

...(?)

Where are the transcripts? I can't find them on the Nuacht a hAon page.

"Sometimes, learning Gaeilge really feels like an endless painstaking struggle"

It is, and your reasons are very sound

quote:

listen to RnaG and (agus tosnaíonn an aisling…) read the verbatim transcripts regularly made available on the website.

quote:

Where are the transcripts? I can't find them on the Nuacht a hAon page.

Neither can I.

And I'm still waiting for Bonnie Prince Charlie.

(Message edited by ormondo on November 02, 2008)

Is le Godot atá mise ag fanacht.

Dála an scéil, cén Ghaeilge atá ar "rapture", an rud atá in ainm a theacht gan rabhadh a fhágfaidh a lán carranna gan tiománaithe?

(Message edited by dennis on November 03, 2008)

Sin ceist mhaith.
N'fheadar - níl aithne agam ar aon soiscéalaí den aicme sin go bhfuil Gaeilge aige.

Má fhéachaim air seo:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rapture

Cad déarfá le "An Deastógáil"? (c.f. an ceathrú rúndiamhair glórmhar)

http://www.catholicireland.net/pages/index.php?nd=135#anpaidrin

B'fhearr liomsa gan an focal sin a úsáid, gan an dá rud a mheascadh le chéile. San Assumption Convent in Manila a fuair mo mháthair a cuid meánoideachais, ní sa Rapture Convent. ;-)

Tá mé ag fanacht le Bilbo. Feic!

http://www.waitingforbilbo.com/

Mise leis! Actually, is leis An Hobad atáimse ag fanacht. Féach:

http://www.evertype.com/gram/hobad.html

Tuigim duit.

Ach cén moladh atá agatsa? Tá na focail ar chomhchiall.

Maidir leis an Hobad, cá bhfios.

quote:

Ach cén moladh atá agatsa?

Níl a fhios agam. Ní mise an duine is fearr chuige sin, is dócha. Is baolach go gcumfainn rud éigin Pratchettesque! Hmmm.... fan go bhfeice mé.... ;-)

Feicim go bhfuil Néal ag de Bhaldraithe ar an gciall eile de Rapture

Néaltógáil, mar sin?