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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (September-October) » Archive through September 19, 2008 » New one on me « Previous Next »

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Liam_fitz
Member
Username: Liam_fitz

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 08:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I just read a "new" rule that I hadn't seen before on a website tonight.

"Note that in any dialect, you never pronounce the "g" in "ag" if it's followed by a consonant."

This was backed up by audio clips of "native" speakers.

In the courses I've been using, "ag" has always been pronounced...pretty much as "egg", with the "g" clearly audible.

The wife and I started classes last week thru our local Conradh na Gaeilge chapter. The instructor is teaching from "Progress in Irish", and lesson 1 has "ag" throughout, and she was clearly pronouncing the "g" when demonstrating.

Just when I think I am starting to get a grasp of this language, there seems to always be another obscure twist to confuse me.

Can anyone validate or debunk this one?

TIA
Liam

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member
Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 517
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 12:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit, a Liam.

The g is indeed routinely omitted before verbal nouns beginning with a consonant. Since you're using Progress in Irish, check out this site which contains audio of all the chapters (thanks to the good folks at the Philo-Celtic Society):

http://www.philo-celtic.com/PII/Progress.htm

I'll leave it to the native speakers to say whether the omission of the g is a regional thing; I certainly don't know. I can only tell you that it is done and I've heard it done by speakers from more than one region.

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 266
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 02:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ag before verbal nouns is rather a particle than a real preposition.
So it is pronounced differently and very lax, compared with the preposition before other nouns.

Ag with verbal nouns is more or less totally silent after vowels and before consonants ("Tá sé ag teacht."), only "uh" between consonants ("Tá Liam ag teacht.") and its "g" is only audible before vowels ("Tá sé ag ól").
Ag as a true preposition is pronounced /eg´/ in all positons ("ag Liam").

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on September 14, 2008)

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Liam_fitz
Member
Username: Liam_fitz

Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 05:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Not sure how I missed it before, but this subtlety would make a huge difference to native ears!

Tá mé ag rince.
I am at the dance.

Tá mé ag rince.
I am dancing.

Thanks!

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 745
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 02:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Wouldn't 'I am at the dance' require a definite article, and wouldn't that make the more or less articulate G unnecessary?

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 7520
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 02:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sea, ach céard faoi "Táim ag rince" (at a dance!)

Cé mhéad gramadoirí a bhíonn ag rince ar mionphointe gramadaí?

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Suaimhneas
Member
Username: Suaimhneas

Post Number: 425
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 12:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Note that in any dialect, you never pronounce the "g" in "ag" if it's followed by a consonant."

In Corcha Dhuibhne native speakers use "ag baile" for "at home" but add a vowel sound after the "ag" so that it sounds like "aige baile". The G is pronounced.

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Ormondo
Member
Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 03:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Do I detect here a certain snobbery among the various dialects? The Munster dialects, for example, are less "guttural". Does that mean they are less pure? What about Iarla O Lianard's diction?

I know that the native speakers north of Galway feel discriminated by the the way the Caighdeán was manufactured and probably rightly so to a good extent. But with only 60,000 native speakers still existing, is it not a pity to make things worse by internal strife?

By the way, Alba, the new Gaelic television station, starts transmission this week. In a way it's a pity that not more cooperation exists between Gaeilge and Gaeidhlig with regards to coordinating orthography and neologisms and the like so that they don't drift unnecessarily further apart. After all, ní neart go cur le chéile!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member
Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 04:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Do I detect here a certain snobbery among the various dialects? The Munster dialects, for example, are less "guttural". Does that mean they are less pure?


Cé leis an béal go bhfuilir ag cur na fhocal san isteach ann?

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Ormondo
Member
Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 05:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl ach ach suim agam i gceisteanna teangeolaíochta agus faisnéis ag teastáil uaim!

Nach gceadaítear a leithéid de cheist a chur agus a chíoradh gan imreas a spreagadh?

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member
Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 166
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Deir tú go bhfuil mórluachach ann anso, ach ní hé an aon sampla amháin a chuiris faoinár mbráid ach t'aireagán féin!

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Ormondo
Member
Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 02:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhia na bhFeart, an focal faobhrach, an focal míchuí sin agam!

Maith dom m'fhiach, mar a mhaithimse do m'fhéichiúnaithe...

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member
Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 170
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Téigh, a mhic, agus ná peacaigh de bhreis!

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Ormondo
Member
Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 03:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

D'ainneoin gur éigean atá peaca eile ar mo ghustal agam ach an géarfhoclachas...

déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall!

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.



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