So, I can't find a note on this anywhere in anything I've read.

Every single singer or speaker, pronouncing the word 'mná' - 'woman' pronounces the word-medial 'n' as an alveolar approximant (English [r], IPA /ɹ/) so that 'mná' sounds more like /mɹɑ:/. Yet I've seen plenty of other word-medial n's where this isn't the case. Is there a rule that deals with this? Does Irish do this with any other words, or is 'mná' the only one?

(Message edited by riannleighiche on September 07, 2008)

(Message edited by riannleighiche on September 07, 2008)

I think it is a question of dialect.
Connacht & Ulster speakers pronounce it mrá.

Also, I'm nearly sure the same happens with gnó and gnóthaigh.

Also with cnoc/cnoic, according to Learning Irish.

Is fíor sin.

/n/ -> /r/ in this position is a general rule in several dialects, but not the traditional dialect of West Muskerry. Ó Cuív transcribes these words as /mnɑ:/, /gno:/, and /knuk/, respectively. The only exception he records is /kro'hu:r/ for the proper name Conchubhar.

A Riannleighiche, ar chualaís /mrɑ:/ ar bhéalaibh mhuintir na Mumhan, go háirithe muintir Chorcaí Thiar?

>>A Riannleighiche, ar chualaís /mrɑ:/ ar bhéalaibh mhuintir na Mumhan, go háirithe muintir Chorcaí Thiar?

I didn't get 'chualais' or 'bhéalaibh' - were you asking me if my family come from West Cork?

I believe so, yes. The Laheys. =)

"chualaís" = "chuala tú"
"bhéalaibh" = "bhéil"

Is í an cheist atá mé ag cur ort ná seo: Have you yourself heard /mrɑ:/ from speakers of Munster dialects? You say that "every single speaker" uses this pronunciation, but my sources tell me otherwise.

"Every single singer or speaker, pronouncing the word 'mná' - 'woman' pronounces the word-medial 'n' as an alveolar approximant (English [r], IPA /ɹ/) so that 'mná' sounds more like /mɹɑ:/"

That is an English r, so it is odd they recalled to do it correctly in one way, yet erred in another...

>>Have you yourself heard /mrɑ:/ from speakers of Munster dialects? You say that "every single speaker" uses this pronunciation, but my sources tell me otherwise.

I apologize, I was generalizing a bit too much. I have heard mostly musicians pronounce it this way - Liam Ó Maonlai, Lasairfhiona, and Sínead O'Connor. I assumed it was the standard.

>>That is an English r, so it is odd they recalled to do it correctly in one way, yet erred in another...

I'm not clear what you're saying here. I put the English grapheme [r] in square brackets, and the IPA symbol in slashes /IPA/

(Message edited by riannleighiche on September 08, 2008)

"Liam Ó Maonlai, Lasairfhiona, and Sínead O'Connor."

Neither are natives. An alveolar flap in this context is correct; the English r is wrong

Lasairfíona Ní Chonaola is a native speaker from Inis Óirr.

Liam Ó Maonlaí is a fluent speaker from Dublin, but will have been influenced by the song as well.

Sinéad O'Connor is not a fluent speaker.

The data set is somewhat small...

I'm only going on the non-natives as per either the clip or what I know of them. In this case sample size is not important, as we are not trying to find out what is the norm by investigation

Nuair a dúirt mé nach raibh go leor sonraí ann, is at tagairt don ráiteas seo a bhí mé, seachas aon ní a lean é

quote:

Every single singer or speaker, pronouncing the word 'mná'

Is mór idir triúr agus "Every single"

tchím do phointe

Yeah, I generalized too much. I apologize.

Lasairfhíona is a native and if she sometimes pronounces her r's as in English, it's just an exception (in some cases, especially at the end of words in songs, people may pronounce the r's as in English).
Sinéad O'Connor is no native speaker and as far as I know, Liam Ó Maonlaí is not either (or maybe he's one of these "native speakers" who have been raised up by non-native speakers... so his Irish may have been influenced by English).

In Gaeltacht speakers pronunciation, mná is pronounced [mʷɾˠæ͂ː] in Donegal, [mɾˠɑ̝ː] in Connaught and [m(ə̆)nˠɑ̝ː] in Munster.

Ní cainteoir dhúchais í Sinéad O'Connor, gan amhras! Sílim nach bhfuil mórán Gaeilge aici, agus nuair a chluinim lena hamhrán i nGaeilge cúpla meancógaí sa fhuaimniú a chuala mise.

Sinéad O'Connor degrades the human stock, let alone any language she cares to speak

Ní cheil, a Bhearn. Inis dúinn a bhfuil do bharúil fúithi. :)

Tá gob mór orm ar maidin inniu!

quote:

agus nuair a chluinim lena hamhrán i nGaeilge cúpla meancógaí sa fhuaimniú a chuala mise.

Níos mó ná "cupla" : gortann a fuaimniú mo chluasa. Ghníonn sí na meancógaí céarna agus a ghníos an chuid is mó do na páistí scoile : in áit fuaim Ghaeilge úsáideann sí an fhuaim Bhéarla is cosúla léithe. Millteanach.

Nach tusa an trua Mhuire.

Táim ag obair as láimh a chéile le hEilvéisigh agus le Gearmánaigh agus le hIodálaigh agus le daoine nach iad agus déarfaidh mé rud leat: níl duine amháin acu nach mbíonn a fhuaimniú féin is a bhlas féin aige ar an mBéarla is teanga oibre chomhchoitianta dhúinn. Dá mbeadh cluais chomh híogartha sin ormsa 'ní mhairfinn beo mí' mar a deireann an t-amhrán.

Ach ní úsáideann siad fuaimeannaí na Gearmáinise nó na hIodáilise in áit achan fhuaim Bhéarla, dar liom.
Agus tá duifear eadar blas a bheith agad agus Gaeilg a dh’fhuaimniú fá mar ba Bhéarla a bheadh ann...

Úsáideann go deimhin, cuid mhaith acu, nó ní fhéadfainn a rá go dearfa arb é "achan fhuaim" é, ach an formhór mór ar aon nós. Insint na fírinne is beag suntas a thugaim dá gcuid foghraíochta agus gramadaí más maith dona iad, mura gcuirtear ceist áirithe orm. Cumarsáid agus comhluadar atá uainn agus sin a bhíonns againn.

I would like to take exception to some of the remarks made about our Sinead. Im sure she makes mistakes with her renditions of songs in Irish but I dont think that's the point. A lot of these songs were thought to irish kids in school in fact to many irish people it was their first contact with the language. We sang em warts and all(forgive the quote).Resonance. There is a saying "Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are!" Damien Dempsey, Donal Lunny, The dude from spear of destiny! A singularly interesting artist in a sea of dross!

The remarks had nothing to do with her rs!