1. Is the letter F pronounced or silent in first conjugation verbs in the future tense?
tógfaidh, brisfidh

2. Same question for:
conditional = thógfainn, thógfaí, ní thógfadh, an dtógfadh

3. What's the difference between ar mhaith leat agus ba mhaith leat?

4. Which is proper usage:

(a) A chara, an ndéarfaidh tú an altú roimh bhia, le do thoil?

nó

(b) A chara, an ndéarfadh tú an altú roimh etc.?

5. And what about those F's? Pronounced or silent?

(Message edited by pádraig on September 02, 2008)

(Message edited by pádraig on September 02, 2008)

3. What's the difference between ar mhaith leat agus ba mhaith leat?

There are other uses that come into play with direct and indirect clauses, but if the two phrases above are used in the principal part of the sentence then:

Ar mhaith leat? = Did you like?

Ba mhaith leat. = You liked -or- You would like.

Ba mhaith leat? = Would you like?

Fanaimis go (n?)daingniú.

FRC-GRMA



(Message edited by student on September 02, 2008)

Ba mhaith leat? = Would you like?

I thought "ar mhaith leat" was "would you like".

Ar mhaith leat cupán tae?
Ba mhaith liom, grma.

quote:

1. Is the letter F pronounced or silent in first conjugation verbs in the future tense?
tógfaidh, brisfidh

It depends entirely on the variety. In West Cork, this f is pronounced /h/, e.g. brisfidh /'brʲiʃhigʲ/[*]. It coalesces with voiced stops, e.g. tógfaidh /'to:kəgʲ/.

IIRC, the f is completely silent in Cois Fhairrge, but unfortunately I don't have Ó Siadhail handy for confirmation.

quote:

2. Same question for:
conditional = thógfainn, thógfaí, ní thógfadh, an dtógfadh

Again, this is /h/ in West Cork except (1) in the second-person singular, e.g. thógfá /ho:g'fa:/, and (2) in the impersonal, e.g. thógfaí /'ho:g'fi:/. It's also pronounced /f/ in the future impersonal, e.g. tógfar /'to:gfər/

quote:

3. What's the difference between ar mhaith leat agus ba mhaith leat?

Interrogative vs. indicative.

quote:

4. Which is proper usage:

(a) A chara, an ndéarfaidh tú an altú roimh bhia, le do thoil?

nó

(b) A chara, an ndéarfadh tú an altú roimh etc.?

For a polite request, I would prefer the conditional, exactly as in English. Neither is "improper" however.

quote:

5. And what about those F's? Pronounced or silent?

Again, YMMV. In West Cork, they would be ndéarfaidh /'niarhəgʲ/ and ndéarfadh /'niarhəx/.

[*] Pronunciation of slender dh/gh as /gʲ/ in final position is also a Munster trait.

A chara,

''Ba mhaith leat? = Would you like?

I thought "ar mhaith leat" was "would you like".

Ar mhaith leat cupán tae?
Ba mhaith liom, grma.''

You don't need to answer with ''liom'' it is more natural just to say ''Ba mhaith'' or ''Níor mhaith'' if you don't want the tea.

Here's Ó Siadhail on those elusive f's:

quote:

Undoubtedly, the sounds /f/ and /h/ in the future morpheme are closely connected and, as might be expected, there is a deal of variation in the dialects (see Ó Buachalla, 1985). In several Cork dialects (Berehaven, West Carbery, East Carbery) /f/ rather than /h/ occurs in personal forms and in Cois Fhairrge both /f/ and /h/ are found in the impersonal forms, e.g. brisfear /b'r'is'f'ər/ ~ /b'r'is'hər/ (~ /b'r'is'ɑ:r/) 'one will break'. On the other hand, /h/ is virtually invariant in the future in Donegal. [Modern Irish, p. 176]

Regarding Cois Fhairrge forms, he says elsewhere (p. 81), "In the west of Connemara, /h/ is not removed medially. However, in Cois Fhairrge (and the Aran Islands) the removal of broad th /h/ is needed in almost all positions except word-initial position." This would yield tógfaidh /'to:kə/ and brisfidh /bʲrʲiʃi/ for the Cois Fhairrge pronunciations. Other varieties (e.g. Donegal) seem to share the devoicing but differ in other details such as the final vowel, e.g. tógfaidh /'to:ki:/.

Thanks Trigger for the correction; "ar mhaith leat" usually means "would you like?" I think it also can mean "did you like?"

Confirmation/correction welcomed.

(Message edited by student on September 03, 2008)

Tá an ceart agat, a Mhic Léinn. The copula only has three sets of forms: past, non-past, and subjunctive. The "past" form is also used for the conditional, so ar mhaith leat? is ambiguous out of context.

Go raibh maith agat a Dhomhnaillín,

Estudiante de Irlandés, aka Mac Léinn

Go raibh maith agat a chairde.

Anois: Are references to Donegal Irish synonymous with Ulster Dialect?

Which of the three -- Ulster, Munster, or Connacht is Cois Fhairrge?

"Donegal" is synonymous with "West Ulster" in Ó Siadhail's usage. He concentrates on living Irish varieties and so doesn't discuss the historical Ulster dialects.

Cois Fhairrge is in the Connemara Gaeltacht. It's a Connacht variety, but differs in some respects from other Connacht varieties. The pronunciation taught in Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish is that of Cois Fhairrge, which is the only reason I mention it specifically.

A Phádraig, cé acu córas foghraíochta atánn tú ag foghlaim?

Cois Fharraige is a sub-dialect of Conamara Irish, just like Muskerry and Corca Dhuibhne Irish in Munster.

As far as I know there is different pronunciation in the Aran Islands, than to mainland Conamara.

I don't know that I've ever come across "ar mhaith leat" other than as a question.

Student, I did not correct you I was quoting the post above.

My message is with out the ('')

Trigger, I considered your comment above as very helpful in me understanding the correct use of "ar mhaith leat" and so wanted to thank you for your help, so thanks again for the help.

As far as I know there is different pronunciation in the Aran Islands, than to mainland Conamara.

There are also differences within the Aran Islands. To quote Ó Siadhail again, "In very broad terms it can be said of the Aran Islands that Inishmore and Inishmaan are very similar to Cois Fhairrge while Inisheer shares some features with Clare." (Ibid, p. 4). As we've seen above, Cois Fhairrge already differs in some important respects from other Connemara varieties. And Clare is somewhat transitional between Connacht and Munster in the same way that Mayo is between Connacht and Ulster. That is, some of the generalisations that Ó Siadhail makes about "Ulster Irish" will also apply to Mayo varieties (particularly Erris), but others will not.

That is very interesting and thanks for writing it out a chara, what is the name of this book which has this quote in by Ó Siadhail?

Mayo Irish is very identical to Donegal Irish, I'd say that there is more Donegal words used within Mayo than Conamara. But they still use ''Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú'' in Mayo, according to the Linguistic Atlas this is how they pronounce ''Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú'' in Mayo:

Toormakeady: cé' chaoi 'bhfuil tú? [kʲe χɪ wɤlˠ tˠu]
Acaill: cé' chaoi 'bhfuil tú? [kʲe χɪː wɤlˠ tˠu]
Carrowteige: cé' chaoi ’bhfuil tú? [tʃexɪ wɤlˠ tˠu] or [kʲexɪ...]

That is another interesting point that there is different pronunciation from island to island on the Aran, this is similar to other islands, before Irish passed away in Acaill ''déanamh'' use to be pronounced [deánú].

Ó Siadhail, Micheál. Modern Irish. (Cambridge : Cambridge University Press, 1989)

Scriobh Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg:
A Phádraig, cé acu córas foghraíochta atánn tú ag foghlaim?

Tá mé ag foghlaim fuaimnigh Uláidh, ach ní ócáid go leor a cluinstin é agam. Éistim le Blas ar BBC na hÉireann.

Cé acu acmhainní eile a mbaineann tú úsáid astu? Is dóigh go bhfuil níos mó ar fáil gan stró ná a shíl mé.