What's the etiquette regarding language use for this forum? Recently I've noticed quite a few threads where the author has posted a message entirely in English...only for some people to reply in Irish only. The ones I'm referring to don't seem to be addressed to any user in particular (for example, another advanced user who can actually converse in Irish)..but are just thrown out there for whoever happens to be
reading...usually smack in the middle of the thread...often this results in other advanced users replying in Irish from there on in...thus disrupting the thread. Doesn't this just exclude others? Wouldn't the OP just post in Irish only if they were able to...or Irish *AND* English? The primary purpose of language is communication. Mutual understanding. It seems very inconsiderate to reply in a language that some of the people having the discussion are unlikely to understand. A language should never be used as a linguistic totem pole or as a means of excluding people.

At the very least, people posting in Irish to threads that start out entirely in English should post a translation or brief summary to go along with it...the same should apply to the Irish only forum or threads that start out in Irish only. Barging in with English isn't fair either.

Seem reasonable?

This is an evergreen topic.

There is usually a good reason why follow ups change language; and there is a reason for the lack of translation - laziness mostly!

What's the etiquette regarding language use for this forum?
"... go mbeadh do chuid teachtaireachtaí múinte agus bainteach leis an nGaeilge." Sin an méid agus is leor liom an méid sin.
There aren't any defined etiquette rules for language switching here, and I'd just as soon not create any.

Wouldn't the OP just post in Irish only if they were able to...or Irish *AND* English?
Hmm. You assume that people who are able to post in Irish will prefer to post in Irish. If so, well, I think that's your phenomenon explained right there, and no need to go assuming the worst about people's motives.

I like to speak Irish, so I do when I can - that is, when it doesn't interfere unduly with communication. I reckon you're the same way, but maybe have a lower "unduly" threshold.

Seem reasonable?
Sure, be my guest. It certainly doesn't seem unreasonable - reasonable people can draw the line different places - and so if that's what you want to do yourself I'm all for it.

I don't assume the worst. I just assume people who post entirely in English aren't capable of carrying on a discussion in Irish.

The most recent example wasn't a thread created by me, but there have been plenty of threads that I started...only to have people reply with "A Dhanny..." followed by two or three paragraphs of Irish and nothing but.

Since you replied, I'll use you as an example of irish interjecting into an establish English thread.

The "Tee Jee Four" thread
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/33795.html?1219671019

Original post entirely in English. Followed by another 7 in English only. Most of the replies running to half a dozen paragraphs. You jump in with an Irish only reply. That's then almost immediately followed up by two more rather lengthy Irish only responses.

How does that not "interfere unduly with communication"? As a beginner, I can't understand any of those replies in Irish and that's frustrating because it was developing into a good discussion. (which thankfully reverted back to English later on)

I guess you could ask for responses in English only, and if the discussion moves to another language, you might conclude that it signals the end of the discussion for you, Danny.

I understand your plight, a chara (see?) and there are as many arguments to support mixing the languages as there are to oppose it.

I have come to view the Irish as an opportunity.

quote:

Wouldn't the OP just post in Irish only if they were able to...or Irish *AND* English?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Passive skills are virtually always stronger than corresponding active skills, particularly when the pair in question is reading and writing. It's far easier to make sense of a word used in context than it is to think of the same word spontaneously when composing a post. The same goes for grammar. You may not be able to remember always when mutations are required or which tense you need, but it's trivial to recognise them when they're being used. On so on.

I would personally love to post entirely in Irish here, but I simply can't afford to spend that much time on composition and still say all that I would like to. This doesn't mean I can't read responses in Irish and, moreover, that I don't appreciate receiving them, as they help me build my vocabulary and otherwise improve my reading comprehension. If ever I don't understand what someone has written, there's no reason why I can't ask for clarification and, as a last resort, a translation. Have you ever had someone refuse to oblige you, Danny, when you've made such a request?

At the end of the day, this is a board for learning Irish. Everyone who posts here is assumed to have some knowledge of the language, however basic, and--more vitally--interest in expanding this knowledge. Given that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a given poster to at least give it at go at reading responses in Irish before requesting an English gloss.

(Gabhaidh mo leithscéal as easpa na Gaeilge san iontráil seo. Táim ag gealladh go mbead ag úsáid a thuillidh an chéad uair eile.)

I don't assume the worst.
I guess I don't see what was up with the "totem pole"/"means of excluding people" sentence then. I took that to be the result of speculation on the possible unsavory motives of Irish-only posters. What was it really?

I just assume people who post entirely in English aren't capable of carrying on a discussion in Irish.
As Domhnaillín says, that's not a very good assumption, and the thread you mention is a case in point. I know what sort of Irish the original poster on that thread has, and he was well able to read what I posted. In fact, so was nearly everyone who'd joined the discussion before me.

Look, I can't communicate with the world and its mother who may be lurking on a thread and I don't aim to.

If I have enough Irish to express myself (maybe with a little effort) and if the person or group I'm primarily addressing has enough Irish to understand me (again, maybe with a little effort) then I consider communication in Irish reasonable and - given that's why we're all here anyway - preferable. I bet you do too.

So that leaves the gray areas. What do a roomful of Irish speakers do when one English speaker walks in? Reasonable people disagree on that one too.

Here's what I think happens at this forum:

1. Someone makes a posting in English about some subject of the Irish language. The question is answered very accurately by one of the experienced members of this forum. Sometimes, a learner like myself tries to answer the question, and if necessary, a more experienced member helps with corrections.

2. Now here come's the exciting part: the tread expands from the original question into areas that are of interest to intermediate and advanced learners. Many of us learners struggle to understand what is being said. The more we struggle, the better we get at Irish.

3. There's always the safety net. I've never seen anyone here refused a translation of what was written in Irish. I think the more experienced members do an excellent job, all voluntarily which makes it even more appreciated, of helping learners understand what is being written in Irish.

4. Further note on the safetly net: sometime in the past we instituted the practice that learners could take a try at translating, when requested, what was written by the more experienced members in Irish. I think we had a consensus that we would allow learners to make that important struggle translating on their own for a 24 hour period, then the other learners could jump in and attempt translation.

All in all, I think this is a wonderful place to learn Irish. There are many reasons why I feel this way, and one of them happens to do with the way the more experienced members not only provide excellent Irish postings for us to struggle with, but they're always there to help in case it's needed.

Le meas,

Student of Translations

Tha na Gaidheil gu nadurra air a bhith a' bruidhinn na Beurla nuair a tha neach gun Ghaidhlig nam measg. Chanadh cuid gun robh buaidh mhor aig seo air crionadh a' chanain agus gu e cho deonach is a bha na Gaidheil oidhirp a dheanamh gus a' Bheurla a bhruidhinn a tha a' fagail na Gaidhlig anns an staid a bheil i an-diugh.

A Dharach, Now you're going into Scottish Gaelic. :) I can read a bit but the differences between Irish and Scottish keep me from getting some understanding from the words. But it's good that you're learning Irish too, if that's what you're on Daltai to do. Perhaps you could put a translation for us?

Go riabh maith agat, a Dharach! :)

If someone who is clearly not proficient asks a question in an Bearla then they should get an answer in Bearla that satisfies what they wanted. After that people have the right to speak whatever they like. The problem is that sometimes the clearly new person will ask some innocent question, clearly without much knowledge and no one will answer them i mBearla and the person is left confused and unanswered in their questions and unsure of the world. That seems like an unkind way to mannage, as though the people wondering about translations are worthless and should be ignored which I don't feel is fair, after all that is how interest in An Gaeilge is generated in many and if they are ignored then what will they think? I know some of yourselves do not care about such folk but if that is the case then you don't need to write when they are looking for an answer. Wait until they have it before you move the thread on i nGaeilge le do thoil. Common courtacy is a virtue remember.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Riona, a chara,

I think you've done an excellent job of expressing how the newer members must feel at times. But I also think, as I've mentioned above, that the experienced members here are a much appreciated source of knowledge for us learners and that we need to strike a balance between the needs of all learners.

Part of that balance has been best described in what Abigail wrote above:

quote:

If I have enough Irish to express myself (maybe with a little effort) and if the person or group I'm primarily addressing has enough Irish to understand me (again, maybe with a little effort) then I consider communication in Irish reasonable and - given that's why we're all here anyway - preferable.

Abigail's remark highlights the essence of this forum, that is, to communicate in Irish. We all need to do that, from the absolute beginner to the advanced learner. We also need to struggle with communicating in Irish; it's the best and fastest way to becoming proficient in Irish. If that means the beginner has to open the dictionary and look up words, so be it. If it means that when a beginner asks for a translation that we intermediate members need to jump in and help, so be it.

So, I think that the answer to how we improve this forum's effectiveness lies with the intermediate members taking on some of the responsibilities of helping the beginners here. The experienced members are already doing more than their share of promoting the Irish language here at this forum. Let's be on the look out for when we see an opportunity to help with the beginners' questions, whether it's ensuring that there original question has been answered or it responding to translation requests when needed.

Le meas, Mac Léinn aka Student.

P.S. How's the singing coming along? You know we're all looking forward to hearing your first sean-nós piece!

(Message edited by student on August 25, 2008)

A Mhic Leinn, I fear you misunderstood me a tad bit. I simply mean that when someone brand spankin' new shows up wanting something that clearly denotes that they are new to the language they should be answered in An Bearla _first. After that people should be able to talk about what they like in the language they like. Obviously after the question by the newcomer has been answered everyone can do what they wish, just make sure that newcomer gets what they came for if possible and then have at it, in whatever teanga you like.

I've picked the next five songs I'm putting up, the Two Coneelys is in that set but they havn't been recorded yet. I'll let everyone know when they get recorded and uploaded and you can listen to my singing of Irish and decide whether you like it or not. If that goes over well then I will put something up completely i nGaeilge for the third set, I do sets of five songs.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Riona,

Will you have English translations to go along with your singing in Irish??? Just Kidding!

Thanks for clarifying your point above - I think your remarks above, in both postings, go along way in advocating the position of the beginners amongst us - maith thú!

A couple more observations, more or less random:

Domhnaillín is spot on about passive vs. active skills. When I address someone in Irish, it's because I think they'll be able to read it - not necessarily to reply in kind. Replies in English, broken Irish or mixed English/Irish are fine. (Replies in the latter two are especially fine! Is maith an rud an cleachtadh.)

Summarizing long posts in English sounds like a good idea but in my experience it rarely works as intended. Instead of using the abstract to determine whether a long post is worth their time, what happens is that people ignore the post completely and respond to the abstract - and then you spend the next three posts explaining how that's an oversimplification really, and what you actually meant was ___.

quote:

A Mhic Leinn,

Maith an cailín!!

Agus aontaím leat gur cóir freastal ar cheisteanna na n-original posters ar dtús, nuair is féidir é.

I reckon that if a poster posts in English you reply to them in English, if a poster posts in Irish they get a reply in Irish.

On IGT, even if you write a thread in Irish you always get English replies, I don't know why; everyone speaks English together. This is what I like about Daltaí I always see people using Irish together.

Hmmmm....seems like I've heard this song being played before...

Agus cloisfear arís é. Agus arís. evergreen atá ann!

An topaic shíorghlas í, nach ea? An bhfuil sé ceart, le bhur dtoil.

FRC-GRMA

(Message edited by student on August 26, 2008)

Sea, gan amhras. Cosúil leis an tóir síoraí ar Bhéarlachas i gcaint na nDaoine!

>>Agus aontaím leat gur cóir freastal ar cheisteanna na n-original posters ar dtús, nuair is féidir é.

A h-Abigail..

"And you agree with my view to attend to the concerns/issues of the original posters first, whenever possible?" - did I translate that right?

(Message edited by riannleighiche on August 27, 2008)

Aontaím leat = I agree with you

Go díreach!
aontaím leat gur cóir - "I agree with you that it is right/proper"
Tá an chuid eile go breá.

(Dála an scéil, ní cóir "h" a chur roimh ghuta sa tuiseal gairmeach: "a Abigail" seachas "a hAbigail.")

Some good points raised on both sides of the "argument".

I'm curious how you'd define "when it doesn't interfere unduly with communication" though...if the example I gave doesn't fall into that category.

Since the majority (the vast, vast majority I'd say) of people on this forum are more proficient in English than they are in Irish, responding to an English thread with Irish only immediately increases the chances of beginners being excluded. Which is why a brief summary alongside would be preferable. It's not an outrageous request.

"On IGT, even if you write a thread in Irish you always get English replies, I don't know why; everyone speaks English together. This is what I like about Daltaí I always see people using Irish together."

Agreed. That's unfortunate too.

Daltaí is much better if you actually want to discuss issues facing the language or new Irish language media etc. IGTF is good if you want to browse through hundreds upon hundreds of tattoo requests or cheesy poems.

quote:

.... if you want to browse through hundreds upon hundreds of tattoo requests or cheesy poems.

Sílim go gcuir ár rialacha sa chomhaireamh a bheith cúirtéiseach le fóram eile.

FRC-GRMA

This is an outrage! How dare you post in Irish only! Translate that sentence, led' thoil.

;p

quote:

Sílim go gcuir ár rialacha sa chomhaireamh a bheith cúirtéiseach le fóram eile.

FRC-GRMA

Ní thuigim an abairt sin. Abair arís é, led thoil, i slí eile.

Riail #1: Bí cúirtéaiseach le 'chuile dhuine.

An dtuigeann tú anois, a Mhúinteoir?

Tuigim! GRMA.

No offence intended to anyone, but this forum is in English AND in Irish, according to the Title or Heading, so I can't see why a thread can't have either or both languages. If someone posts a reply which includes a sentence or a phrase that someone else doesn't understand, be it in Irish or English, it only needs a polite follow-up request for a translation. There's no need for embarrassment or shame at having to ask, after all, this is 'Daltaí', not The UN. It's surely understood that the forum is for all Irish language enthusiasts, learners as well as fluent speakers.

Seanfhear

Aontáim leat, a Sheainfhear, agus maith thú.

Indeed, I suggested posting bilingually at the very beginning of the thread. It's just an issue of common courtesy. I guess I got tired of trying to decipher replies in Irish to threads I started in English.

I'll go back to the threads in question and request translations.