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Riannleighiche
Member Username: Riannleighiche
Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2008
| Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:50 pm: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXT1yJScUM&feature=related Found this sentence in a comment tá an amhrán seo galanta "Is the song-this delightful" Is this typical Irish syntax? I know that Irish is a VSO language, so I figured on 'tá an amhrán..', but not on 'seo' being where it is. |
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Student
Member Username: Student
Post Number: 27 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:02 pm: |
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'Sea. Often the adjective comes after the noun. There are notable exceptions, like with the adjective sean (old), e.g. seanfhocal - proverb, literally "old word." |
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 503 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:09 am: |
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To me it kind of sounds like he was more perplexed that the demonstrative adjective "seo" (this) did not negate the use of the word "an" (the). Here's an interesting spin, ye fluent people! Would it ever, under any circumstances be appropriate or correct to say "Tá amhrán seo galanta"? I.e., could that feasibly be translated as "A song that's here is delightful"? |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 624 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:31 am: |
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Sorry, read the question wrong (Message edited by Bearn on August 22, 2008) |
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Smac_muirí
Member Username: Smac_muirí
Post Number: 71 Registered: 06-2008
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:10 am: |
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'Tá amhrán anseo galánta' - ceart a Dhomhnaill. Tharlódh sé. Agus: 'Tá amhrán de chuid na háite seo galánta.' 'Tá amhrán galánta acu anseo.' ' .. san áit seo.' |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 705 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:51 pm: |
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tá an amhrán seo galánta That looks more like a predicate adjective that would call for the copula instead of Tá. Is an amhrán seo galánta. This song is grand. Oops -- maybe not. Christian Brothers puts the subject at the end: Is galánta an amhrán seo. Is ait an mac an saol.
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 4116 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:09 pm: |
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an t-amhrán "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Student
Member Username: Student
Post Number: 29 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:29 pm: |
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quote:That looks more like a predicate adjective that would call for the copula instead of Tá. Looks like I was under the wrong impression that tá could also be used with simple adjectives. Sorry about any confusion. Níor bhris focal maith fiacail riamh
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 4117 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:24 pm: |
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quote:Is an amhrán seo galánta. Nope, we don't say that, even with the 't' inserted before "amhrán". Tá dhá rogha agat: 1) Tá an t-amhrán seo galánta. 2) Is galánta an t-amhrán seo. Version (1) is the most neutral, while (2) is a "marked" variant with semantic stress on the adjective. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 707 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:39 pm: |
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Dennis, Do they both translate "this song is grand?" Is ait an mac an saol.
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 4118 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:43 pm: |
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Yes, but I'd might translate "galánta" differently: elegant, beautiful... "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Riannleighiche
Member Username: Riannleighiche
Post Number: 11 Registered: 05-2008
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:00 pm: |
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What triggers the t- prefixing? Is it phonologically triggered, like the h- before vowels thing? |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 708 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:12 pm: |
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Prefixed T occurs with masculine, singular nouns in the nominative case beginning with vowels. It also occurs with aon and ocht. There seem to be many exceptions to the rules which I don't have committed to memory. Earlier on I made the mistake of writing "an amhrán" which Dennis gently pointed out. Is ait an mac an saol.
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 626 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 12:18 am: |
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t -prefixing is simply the historical result of the changes in the definite article -I suppose you could say that diachronically it is not a prefix at al |
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Riannleighiche
Member Username: Riannleighiche
Post Number: 12 Registered: 05-2008
| Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 05:00 am: |
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>>t -prefixing is simply the historical result of the changes in the definite article -I suppose you could say that diachronically it is not a prefix at all ...elaborate a bit? My linguist sense is tingling. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 709 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 09:04 am: |
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Ní an béarlagair agam, ach...masculine singular nouns beginning with a vowel are not T-prefixed when preceeded by: den don san ag ar as chuig faoi le ó roimh thar trí um The exceptions seem to be the result of a natural tendency toward lenition in most cases. (Message edited by pádraig on August 23, 2008) Is ait an mac an saol.
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 264 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 07:05 pm: |
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quote:...elaborate a bit? My linguist sense is tingling. t-prefix is (etymologically) part of the article (Proto-Irish) "sindos" > (Modern Irish) "an t-" -os in sindos was lenited before vowels, and so pronounced -oh. The vowel -o- in sindoh was omitted, -h had devoiced -d-. So the result was: sindos > sindoh > (s)ind'h > (s)int > an t-. Lars |
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 504 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 11:47 pm: |
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i I suppose you could say that diachronically it is not a prefix at all. In this case, is there any reason why the t is prefixed to the following word instead of suffixed to the article, as would seem to be appropriate? For example, "an-t alt" instead of an "t-alt." |
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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 98 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 12:42 am: |
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It seems to be a general rule of Irish orthography to keep the article invariable where possible. Consider the case of the preposition le, which takes the form leis before it. Historically, this s represents the initial consonant of the article, but the convention is to attach it to the preceding word instead. I think the only reason we write sa(n) is that the original preposition, i, drops out completely. |
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