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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (September-October) » Archive through September 03, 2008 » Word order question « Previous Next »

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Riannleighiche
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Username: Riannleighiche

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXT1yJScUM&feature=related

Found this sentence in a comment

tá an amhrán seo galanta

"Is the song-this delightful"

Is this typical Irish syntax? I know that Irish is a VSO language, so I figured on 'tá an amhrán..', but not on 'seo' being where it is.

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Student
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Username: Student

Post Number: 27
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

'Sea. Often the adjective comes after the noun. There are notable exceptions, like with the adjective sean (old), e.g. seanfhocal - proverb, literally "old word."

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 503
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To me it kind of sounds like he was more perplexed that the demonstrative adjective "seo" (this) did not negate the use of the word "an" (the).

Here's an interesting spin, ye fluent people! Would it ever, under any circumstances be appropriate or correct to say "Tá amhrán seo galanta"? I.e., could that feasibly be translated as "A song that's here is delightful"?

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 624
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sorry, read the question wrong

(Message edited by Bearn on August 22, 2008)

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 71
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

'Tá amhrán anseo galánta' - ceart a Dhomhnaill. Tharlódh sé.

Agus:
'Tá amhrán de chuid na háite seo galánta.'
'Tá amhrán galánta acu anseo.'
' .. san áit seo.'

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 705
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

tá an amhrán seo galánta

That looks more like a predicate adjective that would call for the copula instead of Tá.

Is an amhrán seo galánta.
This song is grand.

Oops -- maybe not. Christian Brothers puts the subject at the end: Is galánta an amhrán seo.

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4116
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

an t-amhrán

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Student
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Username: Student

Post Number: 29
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

That looks more like a predicate adjective that would call for the copula instead of Tá.



Looks like I was under the wrong impression that could also be used with simple adjectives. Sorry about any confusion.

Níor bhris focal maith fiacail riamh

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4117
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Is an amhrán seo galánta.

Nope, we don't say that, even with the 't' inserted before "amhrán". Tá dhá rogha agat:

1) Tá an t-amhrán seo galánta.

2) Is galánta an t-amhrán seo.

Version (1) is the most neutral, while (2) is a "marked" variant with semantic stress on the adjective.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 707
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dennis,

Do they both translate "this song is grand?"

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4118
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, but I'd might translate "galánta" differently: elegant, beautiful...

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Riannleighiche
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Username: Riannleighiche

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What triggers the t- prefixing? Is it phonologically triggered, like the h- before vowels thing?

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 708
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Prefixed T occurs with masculine, singular nouns in the nominative case beginning with vowels.

It also occurs with aon and ocht.

There seem to be many exceptions to the rules which I don't have committed to memory.

Earlier on I made the mistake of writing "an amhrán" which Dennis gently pointed out.

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 626
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 12:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

t -prefixing is simply the historical result of the changes in the definite article -I suppose you could say that diachronically it is not a prefix at al

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Riannleighiche
Member
Username: Riannleighiche

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 05:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>t -prefixing is simply the historical result of the changes in the definite article -I suppose you could say that diachronically it is not a prefix at all

...elaborate a bit? My linguist sense is tingling.

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 709
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 09:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní an béarlagair agam, ach...masculine singular nouns beginning with a vowel are not T-prefixed when preceeded by:

den
don
san
ag
ar
as
chuig
faoi
le
ó
roimh
thar
trí
um

The exceptions seem to be the result of a natural tendency toward lenition in most cases.

(Message edited by pádraig on August 23, 2008)

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 264
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 07:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

...elaborate a bit? My linguist sense is tingling.


t-prefix is (etymologically) part of the article
(Proto-Irish) "sindos" > (Modern Irish) "an t-"
-os in sindos was lenited before vowels, and so pronounced -oh.
The vowel -o- in sindoh was omitted, -h had devoiced -d-.
So the result was: sindos > sindoh > (s)ind'h > (s)int > an t-.

Lars

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 504
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 11:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

i I suppose you could say that diachronically it is not a prefix at all.

In this case, is there any reason why the t is prefixed to the following word instead of suffixed to the article, as would seem to be appropriate?

For example, "an-t alt" instead of an "t-alt."

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 98
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 12:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It seems to be a general rule of Irish orthography to keep the article invariable where possible. Consider the case of the preposition le, which takes the form leis before it. Historically, this s represents the initial consonant of the article, but the convention is to attach it to the preceding word instead. I think the only reason we write sa(n) is that the original preposition, i, drops out completely.



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