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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (September-October) » Archive through September 03, 2008 » Question regarding "if" « Previous Next »

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 501
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 01:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má bhíonn Máirtín ann, bíonn Cáit sásta.
If Máirtín is there, Cáit is (normally) pleased.

Mara bhfuil tusa sásta, ní bheidh mise sásta.
If you are not satisfied, I will not be satisfied.

My question concerns the negative form, mara, which Ó Siadhail translates as "if...not, unless."

I actually have a number of questions but it would probably be most productive if I can first ask, is there any reason why the term "má ní" is avoided in favor of "mara"? Or, is "má ní" acceptable as a more precise statement?

GRMA!

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 57
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 03:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

+ > Má = if;
- > Mura (Mara) = if not.

Níl 'má ní' (mhír dhiúltach) ceart in am ar bith a Dhomhnaill.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 255
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 12:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"má ní" had developed to "muna", "mara" in the past (Old Irish).

Lars

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 615
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 09:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Usually in these sorts of circumstances, it looks like the r is from 'ro'

sold!

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 623
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 10:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Looking at the history of a form can help fix it in memory.
For example: from bí (habitual) we can derive do bhí (past) and do bhíod(h) (imperfect). From the root 'be' one can get beid(h) and then do bhead(h).

I read once that the Irish conditional developed from the future, and the imperfect from the preterite. The subjunctives are a little different, but easily derived too. 'Wait till I (will) see' in the present (fan go bhfeice mé) and the past subjunctive is ultimately derived from the past too. Reminds me of HE 'if that fell on you'/'if it came down on you' (if that were to fall upon you)

Maybe this is a psychological thing -I had a student write this, when asked to imagine trading places with his parents: "If I am trade places with my parents, I will go to Las Vegas", where one might expect 'if I were to...I would...'

His example illuminated a few functional aspects I had not considered, so I think looking at the history of parts of the language can be useful



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