I know I've asked this before but I'll ask again since I didn't find the reply I got satisfactory enough.

So my question would be what is the difference in meaning between "deá-" and "maith" if there is any at all? The same goes for "droch-" and "dona" which both seem to mean 'bad' in English (at least according to LI). Aside from the fact that "deá-" and "droch-" are prefixed adjectives what differentiates them respectively from "maith" and "dona" if anything at all? Are they perhaps synonyms, which would mean that they could be used interchangeably to qualify the same noun? For example would it be both correct to say "deáchailín" and "cailín maith" to mean in English "a good girl"?

Also bear in mind that I'm only a beginner...
Thanks!

When I hear "deáchailín", I think "pleasant girl".

Recte: dea- (gan an síneadh fada)

Is suimiúil an cheist í seo.

Ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil freagra críochnúil air.

quote:

Aside from the fact that "deá-" and "droch-" are prefixed adjectives what differentiates them respectively from "maith" and "dona" if anything at all?

Idiom, I suspect.

Some phrases lend themselves to prefixing, others do not.

Níl a fhios agam maith olc nó dona.

quote:

Idiom, I suspect.

Is dócha, ach ba shuimiúil an rud é liosta sách fada de na dea-anna agus na droch-anna a chur le chéile féachaint an bhfuil aon semantic commonality le brath orthu. Group project eile?

B'fhiú go mór sin a dhéanamh, a Dennis mar tá an t-ábhar an-suimiúil. Is deacair ciall 'droch' a fhuascailt i samplaí áirithe. Smaoiním ar 'Drochsheans go dtiocfaidh sé anois' ('He's unlikely to come now') Táimid i bhfad ó 'olc' sa sampla sin. Ciallaíonn 'droch' 'with evil intent' i samplaí eile: 'Thug sé drochiarraidh orm' ('He meant to do me harm').

An bhfuil aithne agat ar mhac léinn bocht a d'fhéadfaí a chur ag sclábhaíocht air?

Slán is beannacht
Antain

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sampla ollmhór ag teastáil uainn. Má tá patrún le feiceáil idir dea- agus maith, is féidir nach mbeidh níos mó ná scór comhfhocal le dea- ag teastáil agus scór eile le maith. Buille faoi thuairim is ea an uimhir seo, ar ndóigh, ach is féidir linn tosú leis an méid sin.

Seo iad na dea-anna atá liostáilte san fhoclóir Collins Pocket Irish agus iad gorm, agus comhfhocail eile nach iad ó FGB, agus iad clóite i ndearg, 25 cinn acu ina n-iomláine (más féidir liom comhaireamh a dhéanamh i gceart!):

Ainmfocail:

dea-bhéasa
dea-bholadh
dea-chaint
dea-chlú
dea-scéal
dea-thoil
(ar an) dea-uair
dea-aigne
dea-ainm
dea-bhean
dea-bheart
dea-bheatha
dea-bhlas
dea-chomhairle
dea-chomharsa
dea-dhuine
dea-iompar
dea-theist
dea-thogáil

Aidiachtaí:

dea-chroíoch
dea-chumtha
dea-mhéineach
dea-mhúinte
dea-bheo
dea-lámhach

An chéad rud a thug mé faoi deara ná na haidiachtaí. Tá gontacht iontu nach bhfuil le fáil sna leaganacha timchainteacha a bhfuil "maith" iontu. Mar shampla: duine dea-chumtha vs. duine a bhfuil cuma mhaith air.

Maidir leis na hainmfhocail, céard a cheapann sibh maidir le dea-bhlas vs. blas maith, agus dea-dhuine vs. duine maith?

I'm sorry, I'm having a lot of trouble following what is being said here in Gaeilge. You see, unfortunatly I'm still quite a beginner at the language. Would it be too much to ask to but the explanations in Béarla?

Thank you !

(Message edited by Angmar on August 07, 2008)

(Message edited by Angmar on August 07, 2008)

quote:

the explanations in Béarla?

Béarla? We hates it, we does! ;-) On n'a pas de réponse nette pour toi -- pas encore en tout cas -- et c'est pour ça qu'on discute la question entre nous maintenant.

quote:

Maidir leis na hainmfhocail, céard a cheapann sibh maidir le dea-bhlas vs. blas maith, agus dea-dhuine vs. duine maith?

Deacair a rá gan comhthéacs. Ach is dóigh liom go bhfeadfadh difríocht céille a bhieth ann idir dea-dhuine agus duine maith.

Dúirt Dennis:

quote:

Béarla? We hates it, we does! ;-)

Tá sin aisteach á bhreithniú gurb aoibhinn leat focail Bhéarla a úsáid, "group project" mar shampla. Is fuath liom an leithéid "Ghaoluinne" sin.

''Is fuath liom an leithéid ''Ghaoluinne'' sin''

Cha dtuigim cad chuige go bhfuil daoiní ag scríobh ''Gaolainn'' is é mo bharúil go bhfuil sé mícheart, nuair a bhím ag caint i nGaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne scríobhaim ''[b]Gael[/b]ainn'' siocair tosaíonn sé le ''Gael''.

In ainm Chroim.
Cá bhfuil bhur n-acmhainn grinn?

Maidir le Gaoluinn/Gaelainn, tá an dá leagan ann.
Agus cinn eile, fosta. Gaolainn, abair.

quote:

Is fuath liom an leithéid...

Tuigim duit, a Thomáis, agus is idir shúgradh is dáiríre a scríobhaim rudaí mar sin. Agus is duine leisciúil mé uaireanta, atá sásta "teachtaireachtín i nGaeilge agus beagáinín den Bhéarla tríd" (i gcead do Cháit Ní Dhuibhir) a scríobh ó am go ham.

Ach anois, tá an cheist a chuir Angmar faoinár mbráid fós. An bhfuil samplaí agaibh de dea-X nach féidir a athrú go X maith?

i.s. Má tá fonn ort sárú an riail in "teachtaireachtín" a phlé, oscail snáithe nua, led thoil.

Arrgh. Sárú na rialach.

OK, céard faoi na péirí seo:

dea-scéal (some good news) vs. scéal maith (a good story)

dea-ainm (one's good name) vs. ainm maith (a good name, e.g. a good choice of a name for a child, pet, etc.)

dea-ghlór (a kind word) vs. glór maith (a good voice)

Ag labhairt ar mo shon féin mar fhoghlaimeoir seachas mar chainteoir dhúchais, fuair mé tuiscint don difríocht idir "dea" agus "maith" go simplí ó éisteacht le daoinibh. Mar shampla, is minic a chuala mé "dea-scéal", agus sin an t-aon fháth amháin a ndeirim "dea-scéal".

D'aontóinn le hAonghus, is "cor cainte" atá ann.

9 posts above the original poster asked on this, the Irish AND English discussion board if the responses could be given in English as his Irish was not sufficient to follow the conversation.

This was his post, his question...

9 posts later you guys are still bantering back and forth as gaeilge. That's just plain rude. There's no other word for it.

Dennis...I expect it from you.

Aonghus...that's not like you at all.

This is a site for LEARNERS!!!! Accomodate them!!

You people rant and rave about how the language is dying but when learners come here to austensibly LEARN they get marginalized by the fluent/native speakers.

Now James leave it, no need for another fight on here.

I'm not trying to start a fight. It's just frustrating to me to see so many people who express an interest in learning get marginalized.

Let's be honest...Angmar asked..point blank, in no uncertain terms:

Would it be too much to ask to but the explanations in Béarla?

Apparently, the answer to that for some it "yes...it would be too much. I can't bother myself with responses in English. I understand you're new to the language but I'm really above all of that "as bearla" stuff. Sorry..."

If this were the "Irish Only" section or if we were attending an immersion seminar then I would say "go for it"..."don't give him an inch"..."As Gaeilge or nothing". But it isn't the "Irish Only" section and it's not an immersion seminar. It's a forum about learning.

If we are as serious about saving this language as we say we are, we owe it to ourselves and the language to nurture new learners at every opportunity not marginalize them and overwhelm them with what they don't know.

Dennis replied to Angmar, (admittedly in French), explaining that the reason we hadn't answered his query is that we didn't have an answer, and that we were discussing it among ourselves.

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=20&post=71755#PO ST71755

There ARE no explanations to give in English yet, because we are not sure if there is any rule, or whether (as I said above) it is purely a matter of idiom.

It is appropriate that the discussion be Irish, and as I've said before I am too lazy to translate all my posts.
Also, if I did, I'd be robbing intermediate learners of the chance to hone their skills...

Scríobh Dennis:

quote:

dea-scéal (some good news) vs. scéal maith (a good story)

dea-ainm (one's good name) vs. ainm maith (a good name, e.g. a good choice of a name for a child, pet, etc.)

dea-ghlór (a kind word) vs. glór maith (a good voice)

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil tú ag teacht gar dó. Tá an cuma air go cruthaíonn "dea-" & ainmfhocal ciall ar léith, nach bhfuil chomh soiléir ag ainmfhocal + maith.

An cheist ná: an gnás ata ag feidhmiú anseo, nó gramadach! i. an bhfuil sé i gcónaí fíor.

Tá péire réimír eile ann chomh maith so- agus do-

soiscéal	the gospel
dea-scéal	good news
scéal maith	a good yarn

Angmar, je crois qu'il y aurait toujours un différence en sens, peut être petit, entre "dea", "maith" et "so-" ou "droch-", "olc", "do-"

Mais je ne crois qu'il y a des réglés pour ça.

Whenever I have a few hours to spare and I wish to stretch my mind beyond what I think are the borders of sanity, I pose a question to the Daltai gang in my broken Gaeilge. Then I brace myself, dictionaries and grammar texts at hand to set about the task of translating the rapid-fire responses I get. I have learned a lot, doing this.

On the other hand, when I just want a simple, straight-forward, sympathetic explanation from someone whose sole wish is to help me learn Irish, I turn to the folks at the Philo-Celtic Society.

http://www.philo-celtic.com

They also sponsor a series of courses for beginners based on Progress in Irish on Yahoogroups.com.

I'm as close as I'll ever be, following our internal discussion (GRMA, a Aonghuis agusa Thomáis!) , to sorting out dea- / droch- versus maith / dona. Here's the best I can come up with:

1) There are some words with dea- and droch- attached, which you'll find as separate headwords in the dictionary, which have developed very specific meanings, such as the example of "dea-scéal" above, or "drochbraon" which actually means "an inherited character flaw", although literally "a bad drop".

2) At first I theorized that these adjectival prefixes are less productive -- less freely used -- than "maith" and "dona". But then I examined my own speech and realized that I apply dea- and droch- to nouns fairly often. I think this is especially true of droch-. I'll say "drochaimsir" (bad weather), which has its own entry in FGB, but I'll also produce things like "drochbhéile" (a bad meal) and "fíor-dhrochbhéile" (a really bad meal).

3) I rounded up the usual suspects (Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí, Stair na Gaeilge, Cruinneas Gramadaí agus Corrfhocal Eile, etc.) but none of them had any advice or explanation. There may be something specific written somewhere on this topic, but I don't know where. This may just be one of those things you just a feel for as you acquire the language.

Thank you, Gentlemen. I couldn't follow the Irish nor the French and the English has been helpful to me.

Go raibh mile maith agaibh.

Le meas,

James

मुझे आशा है कि अशिष्ट मैं नहीं कर रहा हूँ , लेकिन,

Although I can understand some French, I wonder how other members can follow a thread when there are multiple languages being used to communicate. I suppose those who don't understand any French are at a total loss. But wait, there's hope - Google Translate! Just go to http://translate.google.com/translate_t

- enter the sentence you need translated and choose the original language and the desired language. For example, in a posting above there is the following French sentence:
Mais je ne crois qu'il y a des réglés pour ça.

I tried Google Translate and here's what I got:

But I do think there has settled for that.

Not perfect, but it might help those members who don't understand French to follow along.

मुझे आशा है कि इस जानकारी में मदद करता है,

Le meas, विद्यार्थी

P.S. If you want to know what I wrote in Hindi above, just cut and paste the text into Google Translate.

विद्यार्थी, a chara,
Tá áthas orm go bhfuil Hindi agat. Yeh bhaashaa mujhe bahut pasand hai, magar MaiM devanaagarii lipi meM yahaaM nahiiM likh saktaa huuM. Kyaa aap ne samjhaa ki maiM ne uupar french meM likhaa kyoMki Angmar ko french aatii hai? (Taitníonn an teanga seo go mór liom, ach ní féidir liom Devanâgarî litreacha a scríobh anseo. Ar thuig tú gur scríobh mé i bhFraincis thuas toisc go bhfuil Fraincis ag Angmar?)

Pádraig,

What tends to happen is that an apparently simple question by a beginner actually sparks off (as it did in this case) a deep discussion, which beocmes interesting in itslef for the participants.

People being lazy, (speaking for myself) will respond as the answer comes to mind, in the langauge in which it comes to mind. For fluent speakers, that will be Irish.

No disregard or disrespect is intended.

Of course, some of us also like to actively reduce the online dominance of English - which is why I will respond to a query from a German speaker in German, or in (broken) French to a French speaker.

I forget that other people might be interested, so being pulled up from time to time, as James did, is no harm.

Focal an lae - do James:

Níl in uasal agus íseal ach thuas seal is thíos seal

(Translation on Wednesday, unless someone beats me to it!)

Ádh mór.

Gabh mo leithscéal a Dennis, ach níl fhios agam go scríobh tú i bhFrancís, ach is maith liom an teanga sin.

A Aonghuis, an é sin cosuil le "Níl íseal ná uasal ach thíos seal agus thuas seal."

Conas deitear "I cheated?"

FRC-GRMA

विद्यार्थी, aka Student.

Tá.

I cheated = rinne mé caimléireacht/seitéireacht

The "word for word" doesn't sound correct so I'll paraphrase for contextual intent:

"One is not noble or ignoble, but up for while and down for while."

Ignoble is not a word used much anymore but for the sake of rhythm, I chose to use it.

Input??

Go raibh maith agat, a Aonghuis! I can always use these lessons!

Maith thú! Agat.

"dea-scéal (some good news) vs. scéal maith (a good story)
dea-ainm (one's good name) vs. ainm maith (a good name, e.g. a good choice of a name for a child, pet, etc.)
dea-ghlór (a kind word) vs. glór maith (a good voice)"



A Dhennis, tuigim. Is suimiúil é seo. Tá ciall glic ann.

First of all, thank you all for replying and especially Dennis for making it all clearer (the Béarla was indeed appreciated and so was the French).

I find it quite surprising that there seems to not be anything documented on this. Is it because Irish Grammars tend to be lacking in grammatical explanations?

Anyways, so from what I can see it seems as though these adjectives would be used in somewhat of an idiomatic way. In a certain given context to specifically say something you would simply use one adjective but not the other. So basically this is just a question of feeling the language and knowing when to use which according to the desired meaning.

Eh bien, comme tu sembles l'avoir dit Dennis, je vais probablement acquérir toutes ces nuances de sens et d'usage au fur et à mesure que j'apprends la langue.

Honnêtement je trouve que l'Irlandais est une langue difficile à apprendre, en tout cas pour moi. Pourtant, elle ne cesse de me surprendre et de me fasciner par sa complexité et son "originalité" face aux autres langues Indo-Européennes. J'aime cette langue et j'ai vraiment la ferme intention d'apprendre, espérons-le un jour, à la parler parfaitement. Ainsi, je me joins à la lutte pour sa survie! Tout n’est pas perdu!

I’m tired now and my bed is calling me so…
Slán go fóill!

oh I think the definitive grammar has yet to be written...if ever. One area such as lenition has more features than covered in grammar books, but mention is not always given (think obair baile vs obair bhaile)

quote:

Is it because Irish Grammars tend to be lacking in grammatical explanations?

Do you mean semantic explanations?

quote:

Ainsi, je me joins à la lutte pour sa survie!

Fáilte romhat!

quote:

quote:

Is it because Irish Grammars tend to be lacking in grammatical explanations?

Do you mean semantic explanations?

Talk about a can of worms you really don't want to open!

Aontaim, a Dhomhnaillín.

"Talk about a can of worms you really don't want to open!"

Well, somethings like aspect, I think, are better done thru that line, as are things like the modus and related elements:

Indicative: I am here
Question: Where's that?
Response: Here in the kitchen
Comment: As usual!
Command: Come out now!
Conditional: I would, if that fecker i'd leave me alone...
Subjunctive: And he might, were you to stop eating all the pies!