Tonight while looking at the listings for S4C I was struck by the quality of their programming (which is, as you'd expect from a Welsh language channel, all in Welsh).
Compare this to the drivel offered to us on TG4.
Amongst the usual English-language stuff two titles which I think really epitomise the standard output of these imbeciles stood out: "Shabby go Chic" and "Teenage Cics" (Using fusty, old-fashioned Irish names for these televisual masterpieces would, of course, have turned off all the cool, trendy, young people that TG4 attracts in droves and has turned into devotees of the Irish language!).
Basically, pathetic imitations of the absolute dregs of English-language television.
The vast majority of TG4's output is so stupid, crude and abysmally low-brow that I would be prepared to entertain the thought that TG4 is a conspiracy designed to harm, debase and discredit the Irish language.

People have to decide what they want. They either want:

1) To compromise a bit and promote a watered-down Irish that's polluted with English words and idioms
2) Promote a pure, unadulterated Irish, using Irish words and Irish idioms

Considering that Ros na Rún contains such lines as "Táim ag babysiteáil anocht", and given that Spin 1038 has a show called "Top Fourty Oifigiúil na hÉireann", I think a lot of people are content with watered down Irish.

Really I don't see the point of promoting a second language if you're just gonna pollute it with words from the first language. If somebody said "Cá bhfuil an dog" instead of "Cá bhfuil an madra" in Ros na Rún, nobody would find it a bit strange. That, I find strange.

But if you consider that we have an obese woman heading our health service here in Ireland, it's not all too surprising that we have retards in charge of Irish language promotion.

(Message edited by Tomás_Ó_hÉilidhe on July 29, 2008)

I've heard that they use English words in Irish to make Irish look cool to young people and anglify it to make more young people to speak it, that is just stupid.

S4C has a proper budget.
TG4 doesn't.

You get what you pay for.

Hmm,

When it comes to TG4 I have mixed feelings. There is no question that it is better than nothing, and TG4 has great potential.

But there are things about the channel that I have questions about, maybe someone here can answer for me.

What is the goal of TG4?

If the goal is to encourage the speaking of the language, I would think that they would target more audiences and cater to them. And since a large portion of their shows don't really seem to be targeting younger speakers, I am not certain that is their goal.

But if their goal is to just offer Irish shows, specifically for those who can speak the language...then why do they have English subtitles? One, this counters their goal of encouraging the language, and what good are they to people who can already speak the language?

I love to watch the shows on the web. I do it often, and for myself the subtitles have been wonderful for being able to follow the shows, however, I wonder if I would get more from them if I could not see the subtitles. Perhaps it would force me to learn faster in order to follow the shows I obviously want to watch and follow? Just a thought.

quote:

1) To compromise a bit and promote a watered-down Irish that's polluted with English words and idioms
2) Promote a pure, unadulterated Irish, using Irish words and Irish idioms

I know which option I'd choose and to be honest I simply cannot understand the minds of people who'd choose 1. Usually they'll bring up the fact that languages always import loan-words and change.
No-one denies this or that, in a healthy language, it's a positive thing.
But there's no-way the current inundation of English can be equated with this. Everything from basic vocabulary to pronunciation is being changed wholesale. It is ridiculous to compare the adoption of, for example, 'sagart' from 'sacerdotus' etc and never ending lists of crap like 'bhuel', 'leads', 'jab' etc.
Most people I hear on TG4 seem incapable of uttering one Irish sentence without including the likes of 'so', 'like', 'you know', 'sure' etc etc.

quote:

English words in Irish to make Irish look cool to young people

I've said it before - the idea that polluting the Irish language with a ton of English words (a) Will somehow make it appear "cool" to the young and (b) consequently inspire them to take the time and effort to master Irish is ludicrous.
It is serious people imbued with an interest and pride in their heritage and the desire to right an old wrong who will do this but these people aren't too likely to be impressed or attracted by "Hector-Ghaedhilg".

quote:

S4C has a proper budget.
TG4 doesn't.

True but no excuse. Some of the best television and films ever made have been heavily constrained by budget but with the right people these conditions can actually be a great spur to creativity. Budget has nothing to do with the type of programmes produced. Would, say, a documentary about Aodhagán Ó Rathaille necessarily be expensive? Some filming in his locality, interviews with experts, recitations of his work and a presenter. Pretty basic stuff. This would seem to be beyond the capabilities of the geniuses in charge at TG4 though. Maybe if they could call it "An Coolest File in Éirinn!" they might consider it :)
I'm not saying TG4 has to be all serious documentaries, of course not, but certainly the more trivial stuff should never be the majority of what they make.

quote:

There is no question that it is better than nothing

I would have shared this view for a long time but I don't think so any more. Either fundamental changes to the channel, involving unceremoniously dumping the fuckwits in charge of it now, or scrap it. It's an embarrassment to Irish.

Could what we see happening on TG4 be a reflection of what is happening with Irish in general?

There are steps that a script must go through in order to be performed in front of a camera. First a writer with a grasp of Irish must create the script, then an editor with a grasp of Irish must go through the script for errors, and then the script must be approved by someone with a grasp of Irish to be performed, and then an actor with a grasp of Irish must perform it...

So how do some of the errors that even a newbie like me notice, not to mention the allowance of English words when there are known Irish words, have been allowed to happen?

You would think that at one of these steps, someone would say something? Or are these not really mistakes at all?

Now it is easy to say that "someone" is an idiot and doesn't know what they are doing...but when "multiple people" are constantly doing it, could this be an illustration of contempory Irish in practice?

Na daoine a dhéanann droch-chláracha Gaeilge, dhéanfadh siad droch-chláracha Béarla dá ligfí dóibh. Ní teorainn don tsleamchúis an teanga.
Is mó go mór earnáil teilifís an Bhéarla áfach, agus is géire an iomaíocht inti dá bharr.

Mar eolas ón earnáil neamhspleách:

... Is amhlaidh go síleann King go bhfuil iomaire an-deacair á threabhadh ag an earnáil neamhspleách léirithe trí chéile ar na saolta seo. “Níl go leor oibre ann do chomhlachtaí neamhspleácha léirithe agus tá na buiséid á maolú. Tá athrú tar éis teacht ar na cineálacha cláracha atá ag teastáil ó na craoltóirí chomh maith – tá go leor truflaise amuigh ansin; cláracha stíle maireachtála agus a leithéid. Tugaim 'an earnáil spleách' ar an earnáil neamhspleách. De bhrí go bhfuil líon beag craoltóirí sa tír seo, más mian leat cláracha a dhéanamh, beidh ort a bheith ag déileáil le RTÉ. Nuair le RTÉ an liathróid agus an pháirc agus gach rud eile, bíonn sé deacair.” ...
http://www.beo.ie/?page=agallamh_beo&content_id=663


Go bunúsach, airgead, airgead, airgead! Ní dhéanfaidh daoine saol oibre ná cláir as a seasamh fealsúnachta amháin nuair nach dtig leis an duine a bheith beo ar an aer! Dá mb'fhéidir leis an duine maireachtáil ar an aer, thiocfadh linn go léir seasamh de leataobh sa saol agus cláir a sholáthar dóibh le craoladh 'ar an aer', de dhéantús dream daoine a bhí beo 'ar an aer'.

Tuigim duit a James ach ní i mBaile na hAbhann atá socrú na faidhbe seo, measaim.

Chaill sinn in Éirinn duine aislingeach amháin go hAlbain (mar a ndéanfaidh sé éacht leis an teilifís úr thall ar a laghad ar bith).

Sé an feall ná go bhfuil ar TG Fóir fograíocht a mhealladh.

Mar a dúirt George Orwell (i Keep the Aspidistra Flying) sé dearca lucht fógraíochta ná "that people are swine and advertising is te rattling of the swill bucket" - mar sin, is fusa fógraíocht a dhíol nuair atá sé le craoladh le linn clár truflaise.

Ba cheart do TG Fóir a bheith ar nós an BhBC nó go deimhin Radio na Gaeltachta - go iomlán stát mhaoinaithe, agus cosc iomlán ar fhógraíocht agus urraíocht.

Oh yes I was listening to Hector Irish on TG4 the other day, is it just me that notices it that he speaks Irish with a thick English accent, he speaks Irish like he would speak English...

I think the Irish Language is far too much polluted with english words to the point that in future we may have a creole language. It irritates the hell out of me listening to TG4 or RnaG and people using "you know" in every sentence.

I learned Irish pure unadulterated Irish whats the point in learning the correct words and vocab when a half/english half irish language is spoken.
My Irish teacher sees nothing wrong with this saying thats the way in the Gaeltacht and they are native speakers I cant understand that view.

Why cant we borrow words we need from Manx eg Corrán Buí for Banana or Welsh Poppety Ping for microwave instead of mo mhicrowave or mo bhicycle or babysitéail?

TG4 should get rid of english subtitles and have Irish subtitles on english langauge programmes.I think a lot of brill programs like CU Burn, The Running Mate, Seacht Lá have been made but TG4's raison d'etre of being an Irish langauge station has disappeared.

Ceist duit féin é cé mhéid ghéilleann tú dó.

Scríobh Ciarán Ó Coighligh gearrscéal deas faoi - tá sé i "Troigh ar an dtairne"

Aye I know a few that do this all the time they say ''you know'' ''like'' all English fillers all the time while they are speaking Irish, whenever people do this in Irish it hurts my ears...

Maybe people should start putting filler guides in Irish resources! :-)

quote:

is fusa fógraíocht a dhíol nuair atá sé le craoladh le linn clár truflaise.

Sílim-se gur cuma le lucht fógraidheachta an saghas cláir le n-a linn a thaispeántar a bhfógraí (during which their ads are shown). Tá suim acu i méid na ndaoine a bhfeicfidh iad.
An rud é nach féidir le clár bheith rathamhail muna bhfuil sé fá rudaí suaracha fánacha amaideacha? Tá súil agam nach bhfuil sin fíor. Táim cinnte dá n-athróchfaí an saghas clár ar TG4 go rachadh méid an lucht faire síos go sealadach - na daoine ar mhaith leo an truflais - ach tharraingeochfaí lucht faire nuadh níb fhearr eile.

quote:

I was listening to Hector Irish on TG4 the other day

His Irish is crap. There's no crime in someone not having great Irish (my own is far from perfect :) )but (A) He speaks like that intentionally and (B) surely a certain level of fluency should be necessary for someone to actually be on the air presenting an Irish-language programme.

quote:

My Irish teacher sees nothing wrong with this saying thats the way in the Gaeltacht and they are native speakers

Your teacher is a gobshite. I think the case for excusing and accepting every degeneration of our language because "that's how they do it in the Gaedhealtacht" is long over. As well as restoring the number of Irish speakers, the quality of the language needs some serious restoration too. If not where does it end? If the inhabitants of the Gaedhealtachtaí end up speaking English all the time do we declare that that’s Irish because that’s how people living there speak in their day to day lives?! Maybe the old trick of spelling it in an Irish dress will be used again – “Heileó, Aidhm spícing Aighris!”:)

quote:

Corrán Buí for Banana or Welsh Poppety Ping for microwave instead of mo mhicrowave or mo bhicycle or babysitéail?

I don’t see any harm with ‘banana’ after all it's an exotic item which we couldn’t possibly have a native word for. As long as words like this aren’t all taken in through English complete with English pronunciation and stress. As for Microwave etc, we do have words for them but lazy people don’t bother. It’s the old problem – Irish tongue, English brain.

"Welsh" "Poppety Ping" as something to be annexed because it's "not English?" ...

Sweet Jesus.

Tá mé i ngrá leis an suíomh seo!
An-greannmhar!

"Irish Tongue, English Brain"
"Poppety Ping - Sweet Jesus"


Seo maith an cuimhneamh é.
"TG4 should get rid of english subtitles and have Irish subtitles on english langauge programmes".


(gabh mo léithsceil mar níl mo Gaeilge ró-mhaith)

"Why cant we borrow words we need from Manx eg Corrán Buí for Banana or Welsh Poppety Ping for microwave instead of mo mhicrowave or mo bhicycle or babysitéail?"


because everybody who speaks it and virtually everybody learning it is also/already fluent in english.

I want to see as much "authenticity" preserved as possible, but preserving authenticity as the language dies for lack of speakers is penny wise and pound foolish.

Irish NEEDS the english speaking kids who mostly don't give a damn to learn it, use it, and raise their future children with it. If that doesn't begin to happen in droves in the next generation or two, then Irish goes away.

Irish needs to cater to young english speakers...it's unfortunate, but Irish is in a precarious situation, and needs to draw speakers from its native country, who are all english speakers with ingrained english-slang. vocalized pauses like "you know" and "so" are done almost without thinking about it. it is perfectly natural that they seep into the language as it racks up more fluent english speakers in its ranks - as is english slang - similar to the pervasiveness of "okay" around the world and "ciao" in countries that neighbor Italy.

I have been wanting to jump into this topic for a while now, but I don't know how to phrase what I want to say properly. No matter how I go about it, it is probably going to sound hypocritical so...

I do not really think it is a bad thing to allow some, and might I stress the word "some", English to bleed over. It only makes sense that an English speaking Ireland is going to lean that way to begin with. If the majority of Ireland is going to approach Irish with an English speaking mindset, then perhaps English can be used to actually strengthen Irish by allowing a new comfort level for Irish speaking? Just a thought, not a statement.

Welsh, Manx, and Gàidhlig were brought up as possible sources for the borrowing of words. While I understand the idea of wanting stay with "Celtic stock" the reality is that these languages are just as guilty of borrowing from English and then adjusting them to fit their languages.

My biggest complaint with TG4 is that they like to use English words when there are known Irish words. For instance, there was an episode of Aifric where they were talking about pets. The boy "Maidhc" (don't know if that's the character's name or his real name but it was him) says "Níl horses agam."

Are you kidding me!

I see nothing horribly wrong with allowing English in as long as we make it fit Irish. Perhaps, if we enforced the spelling rules for Irish we might be able to sugar-coat the pill? Are they still English words? Yes...but this way they come in a sugary "Irish" coating that might sit better on the tongue, or at least make it easier going down the throat...

Again just an idea, not a statement.

quote:

because everybody who speaks it and virtually everybody learning it is also/already fluent in english.

Yes that's a fact. So what? Irish has to change to suit the language of the learners??
A handful of crappy English words don't make the learning of Irish particularly easier. Syntax, inflections, pronunciation, initial mutation etc etc etc are all still there to be dealt with, hugely more difficult than simply memorising vocabulary. Unless, of course, we dump them also to make it easier for the poor, delicate learners.

quote:

I want to see as much "authenticity" preserved as possible, but preserving authenticity as the language dies for lack of speakers is penny wise and pound foolish.

The language isn't dying for being too authentic. It's dying because every sphere of our lives is dominated by English. So, according to you, the solution is to allow another yet aspect of our culture, our native tongue itself, to be infiltrated by English aswell?

quote:

Irish NEEDS the english speaking kids who mostly don't give a damn to learn it, use it, and raise their future children with it.

You've just said it. They don't give a damn and how you could possibly think that splattering our beautiful language with English filth is going to make them change their minds, take up learning the language and go on to become good speakers is beyond me. ("Wow! I've just heard someone say "Tá mé fuckin' pissed-off leis" on TG4!!! Irish is, like, sooo cool!! Where's the nearest library?")

quote:

ingrained english-slang. vocalized pauses like "you know" and "so" are done almost without thinking about it

It they learned French would they go off to France and speak with their "you know"s and their "well"s etc? No of course they wouldn't. So why is it acceptable in Irish? I think someone suggested above having a list of Irish "filler" words and making them more widely known would be a good idea. I think the reason people (learners anyway)use them so frequently is that they are a common part of all speech but as informal, colloquial aspects of a language they aren't usually taught too early so people get into the habit of falling back on the English equivalents.

quote:

It only makes sense that an English speaking Ireland is going to lean that way to begin with

I don't agree that it's an inevitability that Irish must be polluted with English because that's the language of those learning it. It takes will, on the part of the teachers and students to ensure this doesn't happen. People have gotten into the habit of being too lax on this subject - "It will do", "It doesn't matter". No, It does matter. It's in our hands, all of us learning and supporting this language - do we want to restore our ancient and once illustrious national tongue or do we want a pathetic creole?

quote:

While I understand the idea of wanting stay with "Celtic stock" the reality is that these languages are just as guilty of borrowing from English and then adjusting them to fit their languages

I think if there are perfectly good Celtic words in any of these languages, particularly Scottish Gaelic, that can supply a term for some concept that's lacking in Irish then surely it makes more sense to draw on them than go looking elsewhere? I don't see what the fact that these languages (unfortunately for them) borrow heavily on English has to do with it.

quote:

The boy "Maidhc" (don't know if that's the character's name or his real name but it was him) says "Níl horses agam."

Find a stout tree and get some rope. Were gonna have us a hangin'! :)

what are the Irish "filler" words? I remember in French all you had to do was say "uh..." with a french accent and it was correct... not very inventive, but easy to remember. Are there many fillers?

Dáithí

It is true that both Cymraeg and Gàidhlig have a slightly larger vocabulary base than Gaeilge does in terms of more words with direct correlations to English words...

But how does this pollute Gaeilge any less? We are still introducing foreign words (and yes they are foreign words even if they are of Celtic sources) to Gaeilge.

In my opinion, it's like saying that it is better to dump refined oil into water, than it is to dump crude oil into the water.

In the end, it's still polluting the water, just to a lesser degree.

The problem is going to continue, if not get worst, unless people are willing to start taking more regulatory efforts towards the language. People laugh at French's "L'Académie française," but given the current state of Gaeilge...could it really hurt to try something like this?

Now I know that there are many educated people here who get sick in the stomach at institutions like this, but while people sit and talk about the problems, the problems aren’t fixing themselves.

The only comparison I can think of to describe how I see the current regulatory strategies concerning the Irish language is two seasoned firefighters standing in front of a burning building while it burns and do nothing about it because they are debating the best course of action, who has the better idea, and why...

Also, while in the ideal world we can concern ourselves about the manner in which something is done, in the real world when something seriously needs to be done, it doesn’t really matter how it is done as long as the job gets done. Like the old saying goes, “History is the only real judge, and it judges just as harshly for inaction as it does for action.”

quote:

But how does this pollute Gaeilge any less? We are still introducing foreign words

Intentionally taking in needed terms is not the same as the pollution from English that's currently going on. Foreign? Technically yes but as close to our own language as we can get.

I think an Irish equivalent of L'Academie Francaise would be a great idea. Provided it was staffed by the right people of course.

Irish does have something like it...

Foras na Gaeilge

However, the problem is that for all their hardwork, they are failing to achieve their charter because of poor budgeting and lack of Irish support.

Look at their listed functions as outlined by their charter:

The functions of Foras na Gaeilge:

• promotion of the Irish language

• facilitating and encouraging its use in speech and writing in public and private life in the South and, in the context of Part III of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, in Northern Ireland where where is appropriate demand;

• advising both administrations, public bodies and other groups in the private and voluntary sectors;

• undertaking supportive projects, and grant-aiding bodies and groups as considered necessary;

• undertaking research, promotional campaigns, and public and media relations;

• developing terminology and dictionaries;

• supporting Irish-medium education and the teaching of Irish.

"Poppety Ping"

Cute, in a Welsh way, but maybe not suited to the aesthetics of Irish, maybe

Corrán buí is lovely, tho!


"Irish NEEDS the english speaking kids who mostly don't give a damn to learn it, use it, and raise their future children with it."

How and why would people who don't care do that, or maybe you mean those who don't care now, once they have it, might teach it to their kids when they are parents, and care more?


"Níl horses agam."

Well you might close the book at that stage...


"I see nothing horribly wrong with allowing English in as long as we make it fit Irish."

Those that would, would never fit them into the native syntax in the first place, as they don't know -remember my experience last year -none of the higher level class could use relative sentences i.e. they could not sling two clauses together where the second added more information about the first. Those sort of people won't worry about purity arguments -sure they can't even communicate.

'Corrán buí' for 'banana' would meet with derision from Irish-speakers, and rightly so. For a start, it's a common placename - there's a 'Corrán Buí' in the Mayo Gaeltacht of Ceathrú Thaidhg, for example. Do its residents live in a banana? 'Banana' is well-established among Irish-speakers (se Seán Mac Mathúna's book of the same name). If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Loanwords aren't the problem, but rather the wholesale borrowing of English syntax and the imposition of English pronunciation and idiom.

Couldn't one debate that the reason some people are using "the wholesale borrowing of English syntax and the imposition of English pronunciation of idiom" is that they are ultimately trying to get to the English loanword or idea they want to convey?

I agree that loanwords by themselves are nothing serious. All languages use foreign lonewords with little threat to them, however, could it be a threat to Irish? Could the allowance of a lot of English loanwords be a trigger to an English speaking mind to keep things English?

quote:

Irish does have something like it...

Foras na Gaeilge

It's hardly the same is it. And isn't one of their functions to help promote that "Ulster-Scots" nonsense.

quote:

Couldn't one debate that the reason some people are using "the wholesale borrowing of English syntax and the imposition of English pronunciation of idiom" is that they are ultimately trying to get to the English loanword or idea they want to convey?

People are brought up learning through English, being entertained through English, their entire interaction with the world at large is ENTIRELY through English so it's hardly a surprise that communicating in Irish has become for them nothing more than translating their English thoughts, knowledge, experience etc etc at the point of speech.
This isn't good enough. No language can last like this. We need more and better Irish media, definitive Irish reference and educational works - why not even an encyclopaedia? the Israelis managed it with "Encyclopaedia Hebraica" - and, most crucially: gradually but definitely move ALL education back to being entirely through Irish.

Most of modern Western culture and enrichment of Western languages was founded on translations of the works of the classical world during the Renaissance and from this base modern learning was built.
Irish, unfortunately, didn't get the chance for it's own definitive translations and the consequent adoption of terms from them which have been so important to other European tongues.
As long as our access to this world of modern, universal knowledge is through the filter of English people will continue to see English as it's true language and attempts at expressing it through Irish as simply awkward translation.



(Message edited by James_Murphy on August 03, 2008)

The only difference I see between Foras na Gaeilge and L'Académie Française is that the French people accept their L'Académie Française as a true governing authority while most people treat Foras na Gaeilge with a "Whatever, who the hell do you think you are." mentality.

I think there would be a complete 180 if the Irish government, were to give Foras na Gaeilge the authority to label things Irish or not. For instance, give them the ability to create a complete (or at least to the best of their ability) modern dictionary and say if it isn't in here, it's not Irish at the moment. Of course this dictionary would have to be re-vised and updated regulary but that simple action alone could put a serious halt on some of the English we are encountering with the medias.

Would this mean that people are going to stop, no. Would this change and possibly help to enforce the arena of professionalism that TG4, RnaG, the education system, and the Irish workforce are having to work in, absolutely.

Lads, has the penny dropped yet? This is just another example of how a minority (Gaeltacht) is treated by a majority (Galltacht).

Many of the above points were discussed in a PDF from a symposium circulated a few months ago. In one of the papers, a native linguist from Conemara pointed out numerous errors in the new official coins, and was of the opinion that the language was effectively moribund.

The response to this on the internet? People argued against it and dismissed it out of hand; before admitting they had not even read the paper, despite a link provided for their benefit...

Foras na Gaeilge does not have anything like the Role of The Academie.

It's main role is to spend government by grant aiding various projects.

It has no normative role at all that I know of.

quote:

the new official coins,

Which new coins?
They've put up nice new street-name signs in my home town - the town crest in the middle with Irish to the left and English on the right. The problem is some of the Irish versions are absurdly wrong. The most basic of mistakes often. I cant fathom how it happened, who was responsible for coming up with the Irish versions?
"Cnoc na Bóthairín" is one example that comes to mind. Pathetic, but "who cares, no-one will notice" would be the mindset of these imbeciles.

"Foras na Gaeilge, the body responsible for the promotion of the Irish language throughout the whole island of Ireland, was founded on the second day of December 1999.

In the Good Friday Agreement, it was stated that a North/South Implementation body be set up to promote both the Irish language and the Ulster Scots language. Under the auspices of this body, Foras na Gaeilge will carry out all the designated responsibilities regarding the Irish language. This entails facilitating and encouraging the speaking and writing of Irish in the public and private arena in the Republic of Ireland, and in Northern Ireland where there is appropriate demand, in the context of part three of the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages.

The staff of Bord na Gaeilge, An Gúm (Publishers), and An Coiste Téarmaíochta (Terminology Committee) and their activities have all been transferred to the new body.
Foras na Gaeilge has a role in advising administrations, North and South, as well as public bodies and other groups in the private and voluntary sectors in all matters relating to the Irish language. They will also be undertaking supportive projects and grant-aiding bodies and groups throughout the island of Ireland.


The functions of Foras na Gaeilge:

• promotion of the Irish language

• facilitating and encouraging its use in speech and
writing in public and private life in the South and,
in the context of Part III of the European Charter
for Regional or Minority Languages, in Northern Ireland where where is appropriate demand;

• advising both administrations, public bodies and other groups in the private and voluntary sectors;

• undertaking supportive projects, and grant-aiding bodies and groups as considered necessary;

• undertaking research, promotional campaigns, and public and media relations;

• developing terminology and dictionaries;

• supporting Irish-medium education and the teaching of Irish."

http://www.gaeilge.ie/foras/default.asp?catid=13


" Le rôle de l’Académie française est double : veiller sur la langue française et accomplir des actes de mécénat.

La première mission lui a été conférée dès l’origine par ses statuts. Pour s’en acquitter, l’Académie a travaillé dans le passé à fixer la langue, pour en faire un patrimoine commun à tous les Français et à tous ceux qui pratiquent notre langue.

Aujourd’hui, elle agit pour en maintenir les qualités et en suivre les évolutions nécessaires. Elle en définit le bon usage.

Elle le fait en élaborant son dictionnaire qui fixe l’usage de la langue, mais aussi par ses recommandations et par sa participation aux différentes commissions de terminologie.

La seconde mission — le mécénat —, non prévue à l’origine, a été rendue possible par les dons et legs qui lui ont été faits.

L’Académie décerne chaque année environ soixante prix littéraires.

Mention particulière doit être faite du grand prix de la Francophonie, décerné chaque année depuis 1986, qui témoigne de l’intérêt constant de l’Académie pour le rayonnement de la langue française dans le monde.

L’Académie attribue aussi des subventions à des sociétés littéraires ou savantes, des œuvres de bienfaisance, des aides à des familles nombreuses, aux veuves, aux personnes défavorisées ou qui se sont distinguées par l’accomplissement d’actes de dévouement ainsi qu’un certain nombre de bourses. (Bourses Zellidja, Neveux, Corblin, Damade)."

http://www.academie-francaise.fr/role/index.html

The Académie is France's official authority on the usages, vocabulary, and grammar of the French language, although its recommendations carry no legal power — sometimes, even governmental authorities disregard the Académie's rulings. The Académie publishes a dictionary of the French language, known as the Dictionnaire de l'Académie française, which is regarded as official in France. A special Commission composed of several (but not all) of the members of the Académie undertakes the compilation of the work. The Académie has completed eight editions of the dictionary, which have been published in 1694, 1718, 1740, 1762, 1798, 1835, 1878, and 1935. It continues work on the ninth edition, of which the first volume (A to Enzyme) appeared in 1992, and the second volume (Éocène to Mappemonde) in 2000. In 1778, the Académie attempted to compile a "historical dictionary" of the French language; this idea, however, was later abandoned, the work never progressing past the letter A.

As French culture has come under increasing pressure with the widespread availability of English media, the Académie has tried to prevent the anglicisation of the French language. For example, the Académie has recommended, with mixed success, that some loanwords from English (such as walkman, software and email) be avoided, in favour of words derived from French (baladeur, logiciel, and courriel respectively). Moreover, the Académie has worked to modernise French orthography. The body, however, has sometimes been criticised for behaving in an excessively conservative fashion. A recent controversy involved the officialisation of feminine equivalents for the names of several professions. For instance, in 1997, Lionel Jospin's government began using the feminine noun "la ministre" to refer to a female minister, following the official practice of Canada, Belgium and Switzerland and a common, though until then unofficial, practice in France. The Académie, however, insisted on the traditional use of the masculine noun, "le ministre," for a minister of either gender. Use of either form remains controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise#Functions

I don't know, it looks like they are claiming to share similar responsibilities with their respective languages. I know that there are French people here at this site, perhaps they can further explain the role of the Academie?

L'Académie Française is a buffer. In this era of mass bleeding-over of English into French, it seems their primary mission is to mint newly-created "official French equivalents" of words that never naturally occurred in French. Obviously, terms pertinent to technology are the primary targets.

Irish faces vastly bigger problems than French. We should gladly say "an superconductor" or "an voicemail" or "an software" so long as the rest of the sentence is at least grammatically still recognizable Celtic. It's a question of triage-style prioritization.

We need to finish the damn heart transplant before we start agonizing over the face lift and boob job.

And... here's yet another post I've managed... as Béarla.

Sigh

"Which new coins?"

When I find the PDF I will quote what he said

I recall a new street named after a guard in the paper, and it had a lenited initial sc cluster (sonething like scoil as 'schoil' etc)...

"Pathetic, but "who cares, no-one will notice" would be the mindset of these imbeciles."

Simple -nobody knew. Ask 100 Irish people, how many would know the error?

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on August 05, 2008)

x y z

quote:

A handful of crappy English words don't make the learning of Irish particularly easier. Syntax, inflections, pronunciation, initial mutation etc etc etc are all still there to be dealt with, hugely more difficult than simply memorising vocabulary.

On a side note (and as someone who has learned to speak a half dozen languages) I disagree entirely with the notion that vocabulary is the easiest part of language learning. A wise friend of mine once said something along the lines of "I've seldom been in a situation where I didn't have the grammar I needed, but I'm always short of words." Think how many hundreds of words it takes to have even the simplest of conversations. Compared to learning them all, memorising a table of initial mutations is the work of half an hour.

At least with inflections and such there are consistent patterns. Irregularities are confined to a relatively small and closed set of inherited words (for instance, basic kinship terms) whereas new coinages and borrowings are almost always assimilated to the least marked declensions. (How many Irish loans from English have "strong" plurals rather than simply taking an ending like -acha, -anna, or -í?) Similarly, there are only a finite number of ways to order the constituents of a sentence.

Wordforms, on the other hand, are entirely arbitrary. There's nothing about the sound and appearance of the words madadh, gé, and uan which tells you that these are the names of animals as opposed to, say, kitchen utensils or descriptive verbs. You either know what these words mean or you have to look them up. (Context only goes so far in disambiguating a sentence like "Is tá na huain ag ól an bhainne". And God help you if there are two content words in there you don't happen to know.)

(Gabhaidh mo leithscéal nár scríobhas i nGaelainn é seo, ach do bheadh fiannaíocht air sara mbeadh sé críochnaithe agam dá lorgfainn na focail go léir de réir mar ba ghá.)

I think the whole matter was summed up quite nicely with Níl horses agam. You have complete saps thinking they're speaking Irish.

Nuair a bhi me sa siopa indiu, chuala me duin' eicint a' radh 'ta me a' goil go dti an town '

quote:

Nuair a bhi me sa siopa indiu, chuala me duin' eicint a' radh 'ta me a' goil go dti an town '

Well it might have taxed his feeble, little brain too much to remember the long, complicated, obscure Irish word for 'town'.

"They've put up nice new street-name signs in my home town - the town crest in the middle with Irish to the left and English on the right. The problem is some of the Irish versions are absurdly wrong. The most basic of mistakes often. I cant fathom how it happened, who was responsible for coming up with the Irish versions?
"Cnoc na Bóthairín" is one example that comes to mind. Pathetic, but "who cares, no-one will notice" would be the mindset of these imbeciles."


Ar inis tú an comhairle áitiúil fésna botúin ar na fógra id bhaile a James? Ba chóir duit litir a scríobh dod pháipéar áitiúil. B'fhéidir go gceartóidís na botúin....

Good discussion.

"Much of what passes for Irish language broadcasting on TG4 and RTE is presented by non-native speakers who insist on pronouncing Irish with English phonology, English syntax and idiomatic conventions. The two best-known are Hector and Manchán, two of TG4’s most popular ‘stars’. However, the killer of all this is that people keep saying that they love these programmes because they can follow the Irish. That speaks volumes. If the truth be told, if these people were to speak English the way they speak Irish, they would be ridiculed and severely condemned."

- Dr Feargal Ó Béarra, NUI Galway

That might be the linguist who is of the opinion Irish is moribund. Anyway, I think a paper is in a PDF I wanted

Tha BBC Alba a' toiseachadh air 19-09-'08

http://opus.kobv.de/ubp/volltexte/2007/1568/pdf/celtic_languages_in_contact.pdf

Page 260.

Bualaí fir!

This was what I was looking for:

"The latest example I came across is the term
for dental hygienist, i.e. sláinteolaí déadach. Now of course anyone who has
heard of Fearghus Déadach or Dubhdhéadach will know that the word déadach
means ‘having teeth’.3 So sláinteolaí déadach actually means a toothed hygienist.
What we should expect is sláinteolaí fiacla with the noun fiacail being used to form a genitive plural with adjectival force. But as this concept does not exist
in English it will not be found in Irish"

Sea, ach....

Smeara fiacla - toothpaste.

Ach:

déad [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
fiacail; cár fiacla.

Foirmeacha Dírithe :
déadach [aidiacht den chéad díochlaonadh]

So I think the analysis to prove Béarlachas is once again strained.

http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=d%C3%A9adach

Creidim go ndèanann an suìomh seo dochar do chùis na Gaeilge.

Spéisiúil a Spailín.

Feicim an méid sin abhus anois is arís ceart go leor. Thagair Dennis don dobrón agus don ghruaim as éadan a bhí le brath ar an gclár nuair a d'fhill sé abhaile as Éirinn. Thug sé cuntas maith an t-am san chomh maith ar an dóigh a bhraitheann sé scéal na teangan faoi láthair.

Tá roinnt ball ar an gclár so an-luite le cíoradh ceantracha Gaeltachta, i mBéarla ar ndóigh, nó fiosrú faoin bhfágálach feosaí gan Bhéarla áit éigin san iar-Ghaeltacht.

Tá léachtóireacht tosaithe anois ar shnáithe eile chomh maith a chiallaíos gur béasaí an Béarla agus gur borb an Ghaeilg gan a achoimriú Béarla a bheith leis. Ach meallfar an duine sin le himeacht ama. Ní miste a thuiscint go dtagann gach cineál duine isteach anseo agus dá ilghnéithí sinne inár nglacadh leo is ea is fearr é.

Níor mhiste sinn thú a bheith linn agus measaim gurbh fhiú duit fanacht thart agus breathnú cad é an dóigh a dtiocfadh leat féin a ghabháil i bhfeidhm ar chuid den dream san a mheasair a bheith ag déanamh an dochair.

Chaitheas sé uair an chloig in éineacht le roinnt eile ag glanadh gaelscoile inné faoi choinne na bliana nua scolaíochta. Sílim go bhfuil an t-iarann te ach sinn a bhuaileadh sách láidir go ceann fiche bliana is beidh scéal againn. Cuid díobh san a tháinig leis an scoil a ghlanadh, d'fhéadfaí a mhaíomh nach raibh an dearcadh rófhollán acu i leith na Gaeilge. Rud éigin a mhothaigh siad a thug orthu a ngasúr a sheoladh chun na gaelscoile agus a thug orthu triall isteach leis an bhfolúsghlantóir iad féin le gabháil i mbun a ghlanadh. Ní fhéadfaidís a mhíniú ná a inse duit céard é. D'fhéadfaí a rá fúthu fiú amháin, nach raibh a ndearcadh i leith na Gaeilge ach cineál ann as. Caithfimid gach duine 'ann as' a bhuachaint go ceann fiche bliain.

I was able to follow this interesting discussion until this point:

Could someone please translate/summarize the following passages? I can read all the rest but the following, mostly in the middle of the discussion. GRMA for any help!

Na daoine a dhéanann droch-chláracha Gaeilge, dhéanfadh siad droch-chláracha Béarla dá ligfí dóibh. Ní teorainn don tsleamchúis an teanga.
Is mó go mór earnáil teilifís an Bhéarla áfach, agus is géire an iomaíocht inti dá bharr.
====

Mar eolas ón earnáil neamhspleách:

... Is amhlaidh go síleann King go bhfuil iomaire an-deacair á threabhadh ag an earnáil neamhspleách léirithe trí chéile ar na saolta seo. “Níl go leor oibre ann do chomhlachtaí neamhspleácha léirithe agus tá na buiséid á maolú. Tá athrú tar éis teacht ar na cineálacha cláracha atá ag teastáil ó na craoltóirí chomh maith – tá go leor truflaise amuigh ansin; cláracha stíle maireachtála agus a leithéid. Tugaim 'an earnáil spleách' ar an earnáil neamhspleách. De bhrí go bhfuil líon beag craoltóirí sa tír seo, más mian leat cláracha a dhéanamh, beidh ort a bheith ag déileáil le RTÉ. Nuair le RTÉ an liathróid agus an pháirc agus gach rud eile, bíonn sé deacair.” ...
http://www.beo.ie/?page=agallamh_beo&content_id=663


Go bunúsach, airgead, airgead, airgead! Ní dhéanfaidh daoine saol oibre ná cláir as a seasamh fealsúnachta amháin nuair nach dtig leis an duine a bheith beo ar an aer! Dá mb'fhéidir leis an duine maireachtáil ar an aer, thiocfadh linn go léir seasamh de leataobh sa saol agus cláir a sholáthar dóibh le craoladh 'ar an aer', de dhéantús dream daoine a bhí beo 'ar an aer'.

Tuigim duit a James ach ní i mBaile na hAbhann atá socrú na faidhbe seo, measaim.

Chaill sinn in Éirinn duine aislingeach amháin go hAlbain (mar a ndéanfaidh sé éacht leis an teilifís úr thall ar a laghad ar bith).
=====

Sé an feall ná go bhfuil ar TG Fóir fograíocht a mhealladh.

Mar a dúirt George Orwell (i Keep the Aspidistra Flying) sé dearca lucht fógraíochta ná "that people are swine and advertising is te rattling of the swill bucket" - mar sin, is fusa fógraíocht a dhíol nuair atá sé le craoladh le linn clár truflaise.

Ba cheart do TG Fóir a bheith ar nós an BhBC nó go deimhin Radio na Gaeltachta - go iomlán stát mhaoinaithe, agus cosc iomlán ar fhógraíocht agus urraíocht.
====

Sílim-se gur cuma le lucht fógraidheachta an saghas cláir le n-a linn a thaispeántar a bhfógraí (during which their ads are shown). Tá suim acu i méid na ndaoine a bhfeicfidh iad.
An rud é nach féidir le clár bheith rathamhail muna bhfuil sé fá rudaí suaracha fánacha amaideacha? Tá súil agam nach bhfuil sin fíor. Táim cinnte dá n-athróchfaí an saghas clár ar TG4 go rachadh méid an lucht faire síos go sealadach - na daoine ar mhaith leo an truflais - ach tharraingeochfaí lucht faire nuadh níb fhearr eile.
=====

Spéisiúil a Spailín.

Feicim an méid sin abhus anois is arís ceart go leor. Thagair Dennis don dobrón agus don ghruaim as éadan a bhí le brath ar an gclár nuair a d'fhill sé abhaile as Éirinn. Thug sé cuntas maith an t-am san chomh maith ar an dóigh a bhraitheann sé scéal na teangan faoi láthair.

Tá roinnt ball ar an gclár so an-luite le cíoradh ceantracha Gaeltachta, i mBéarla ar ndóigh, nó fiosrú faoin bhfágálach feosaí gan Bhéarla áit éigin san iar-Ghaeltacht.

Tá léachtóireacht tosaithe anois ar shnáithe eile chomh maith a chiallaíos gur béasaí an Béarla agus gur borb an Ghaeilg gan a achoimriú Béarla a bheith leis. Ach meallfar an duine sin le himeacht ama. Ní miste a thuiscint go dtagann gach cineál duine isteach anseo agus dá ilghnéithí sinne inár nglacadh leo is ea is fearr é.

Níor mhiste sinn thú a bheith linn agus measaim gurbh fhiú duit fanacht thart agus breathnú cad é an dóigh a dtiocfadh leat féin a ghabháil i bhfeidhm ar chuid den dream san a mheasair a bheith ag déanamh an dochair.

Chaitheas sé uair an chloig in éineacht le roinnt eile ag glanadh gaelscoile inné faoi choinne na bliana nua scolaíochta. Sílim go bhfuil an t-iarann te ach sinn a bhuaileadh sách láidir go ceann fiche bliana is beidh scéal againn. Cuid díobh san a tháinig leis an scoil a ghlanadh, d'fhéadfaí a mhaíomh nach raibh an dearcadh rófhollán acu i leith na Gaeilge. Rud éigin a mhothaigh siad a thug orthu a ngasúr a sheoladh chun na gaelscoile agus a thug orthu triall isteach leis an bhfolúsghlantóir iad féin le gabháil i mbun a ghlanadh. Ní fhéadfaidís a mhíniú ná a inse duit céard é. D'fhéadfaí a rá fúthu fiú amháin, nach raibh a ndearcadh i leith na Gaeilge ach cineál ann as. Caithfimid gach duine 'ann as' a bhuachaint go ceann fiche bliain.
====

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=20&post=71552#PO ST71552

My point was that advertising is not good for quality, and I would like to see TG4 being a real public broadcaster - completely state funded.

Mar eolas ón earnáil neamhspleách:

... Is amhlaidh go síleann King go bhfuil iomaire an-deacair á threabhadh ag an earnáil neamhspleách léirithe trí chéile ar na saolta seo. “Níl go leor oibre ann do chomhlachtaí neamhspleácha léirithe agus tá na buiséid á maolú. Tá athrú tar éis teacht ar na cineálacha cláracha atá ag teastáil ó na craoltóirí chomh maith – tá go leor truflaise amuigh ansin; cláracha stíle maireachtála agus a leithéid. Tugaim 'an earnáil spleách' ar an earnáil neamhspleách. De bhrí go bhfuil líon beag craoltóirí sa tír seo, más mian leat cláracha a dhéanamh, beidh ort a bheith ag déileáil le RTÉ. Nuair le RTÉ an liathróid agus an pháirc agus gach rud eile, bíonn sé deacair.” ...
http://www.beo.ie/?page=agallamh_beo&content_id=663


Achoimre:

... King reckons that the independant producers are getting a hard time of it of late.
They don't have enough work and their budgets are lessening. Broadcasters have changed the type of program they're looking for also - there's no shortage of trash out there; lifestyle ... I call the independent sector 'the dependent sector'. As there is a small number of broadcasters in this country, you shall have to deal with RTE if you want to produce a program. As RTE has the ball and the pitch and all else, it's hard ...




Go bunúsach, airgead, airgead, airgead! Ní dhéanfaidh daoine saol oibre ná cláir as a seasamh fealsúnachta amháin nuair nach dtig leis an duine a bheith beo ar an aer! Dá mb'fhéidir leis an duine maireachtáil ar an aer, thiocfadh linn go léir seasamh de leataobh sa saol agus cláir a sholáthar dóibh le craoladh 'ar an aer', de dhéantús dream daoine a bhí beo 'ar an aer'.

Tuigim duit a James ach ní i mBaile na hAbhann atá socrú na faidhbe seo, measaim.

Chaill sinn in Éirinn duine aislingeach amháin go hAlbain (mar a ndéanfaidh sé éacht leis an teilifís úr thall ar a laghad ar bith).

Achoimre:

Money, m., m., basically, as people don't make a working life nor a program out of their philosophical view of the world alone as one has to earn and eat. Were one able live on nothing we could all spend time to provide programs and broadcast them on air, they're having been made by people who live 'on air'.

I understand, James, but feel that the problem is not really in B. na hAbhann.

We lost one visionary to Scotland, where he shall at least perform some miracles with the new tv station.





Spéisiúil a Spailín.

Feicim an méid sin abhus anois is arís ceart go leor. Thagair Dennis don dobrón agus don ghruaim as éadan a bhí le brath ar an gclár nuair a d'fhill sé abhaile as Éirinn. Thug sé cuntas maith an t-am san chomh maith ar an dóigh a bhraitheann sé scéal na teangan faoi láthair.

Tá roinnt ball ar an gclár so an-luite le cíoradh ceantracha Gaeltachta, i mBéarla ar ndóigh, nó fiosrú faoin bhfágálach feosaí gan Bhéarla áit éigin san iar-Ghaeltacht.

Tá léachtóireacht tosaithe anois ar shnáithe eile chomh maith a chiallaíos gur béasaí an Béarla agus gur borb an Ghaeilg gan a achoimriú Béarla a bheith leis. Ach meallfar an duine sin le himeacht ama. Ní miste a thuiscint go dtagann gach cineál duine isteach anseo agus dá ilghnéithí sinne inár nglacadh leo is ea is fearr é.

Níor mhiste sinn thú a bheith linn agus measaim gurbh fhiú duit fanacht thart agus breathnú cad é an dóigh a dtiocfadh leat féin a ghabháil i bhfeidhm ar chuid den dream san a mheasair a bheith ag déanamh an dochair.

Chaitheas sé uair an chloig in éineacht le roinnt eile ag glanadh gaelscoile inné faoi choinne na bliana nua scolaíochta. Sílim go bhfuil an t-iarann te ach sinn a bhuaileadh sách láidir go ceann fiche bliana is beidh scéal againn. Cuid díobh san a tháinig leis an scoil a ghlanadh, d'fhéadfaí a mhaíomh nach raibh an dearcadh rófhollán acu i leith na Gaeilge. Rud éigin a mhothaigh siad a thug orthu a ngasúr a sheoladh chun na gaelscoile agus a thug orthu triall isteach leis an bhfolúsghlantóir iad féin le gabháil i mbun a ghlanadh. Ní fhéadfaidís a mhíniú ná a inse duit céard é. D'fhéadfaí a rá fúthu fiú amháin, nach raibh a ndearcadh i leith na Gaeilge ach cineál ann as. Caithfimid gach duine 'ann as' a bhuachaint go ceann fiche bliain.

Mar achoimre:

Interesting Spailpín. I notice such here occasionally. Dennis mentioned the gloom to be felt here recently and he gave a good description of how things really are with the language at present. Some members are very prone to teasing out Gaeltacht matters, in English of course, or chasing up a faint monoglot somewhere. Pronouncment has begun on another thread as to English being more refined than Irish when (the latter) is unaccompanied with a summary in English. But that person shall be won over in time. One must understand that every type of person may drop in here and the more open we are in our accomodation, all the better.

We would like you to stay and I believe it would be worthwhile that you should hang around and see how you yourself may affect some of those you deem to be doing harm.

I spent six hours along with others cleaning a school yesterday. We have a 20 yr. chance to make things happen. Some of those helping out in the school may not have any great depth of linguistic conviction about Gaeilge. It's just something they had a gut feeling about which made them send their child to a gaelscoil. Such brought them along with the vacumcleaner to help out. We must win over all those who are just lukewarm over the next 20 yrs.



As that's so long, you may forgive any discrepancies. Níl mé a ghabháil á ghrinniú lena cheartú.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh! Thanks for taking the time to translate it.


"We lost one visionary to Scotland"

Who? I've heard a bit about that channel recently.

"Dennis mentioned the gloom to be felt here recently and he gave a good description of how things really are with the language at present."

Link?

Do chéad fáilte.

Alan Esselmont. Watching a documentary on Joe Steve Ó Neachtain within the last hour I saw him, much younger, sitting in the crowd in a flash back to An Cheathrún Rua about 20 years ago. Thosaigh sé le Telegael - he started with T, having left lecturing in UCG at the time and moved to Teilifís na Gaeilge at the start. Bhí a chroí san áit cheart agus rinne a dhícheall don bhealach úr - being well motivated, he did his best for the new station.

Beidh Dennis féin in ann teacht air níos fusa ná mé - Dennis may find that thread sooner than I would. Feicfimid linn - we'll see.