Ok, so I would have a few questions concerning the copula.

I've learned that the forms of the copula ar/gur/mara become ab/gurb/marab in front of 3rd person pronouns é/í/iad. But what if the copula occurs before a vowel initial noun? Does a 'b' appear again? For example do you say 'ar' or 'ab' in the following sentence: Ar/Ab ollscoil é Coláiste Mhuire? Also, does 'ní' cause h prefixation as it normally does with 3rd person pronouns?

I was wondering too if a noun in a genitive relation requires the proper pronoun to be repeated in front when used with the copula, eg: 'Is é athair Bhríd an múinteoir' and 'Is iad mná tí na múinteoirí freisin'? Are these two sentences correct?

By the way if this is relevant at all to my questions, I'm studying Cois Fhairrge Irish.

I hope someone can help.
Thanx!

(Message edited by Angmar on July 23, 2008)

Are you sure you don't mean "arb" instead of "ab"? For instance:

Sin an buachaill arb iascaire a athair.
That's the boy whose father is a fisherman.

I think I've seen "arb" used in front of all sorts of vowels, be they nouns, adjectives, what have you.

"ab" is a past tense thing used with adjectives:
Ba í an cailín ba mhó sa rang. She was the biggest girl in the class.
Ba í an cailín ab áille sa rang. She was the most beautiful...

As for "Is é athair Bhríd an múinteoir", well I think you'll see much variation. Depending on the person's mood, they might say:

Athair Bhríd an múinteoir

Copula forms! Go bhfóire Dia orainn go léir! Somewhere, I have a chart I made of the Caighdean Oifigiúil, Cois Fhairrge, and West Muskerry forms in an attempt to keep them all straight. I still have to look them up all the time.

I can tell you that in Muscraí the corresponding forms would be arbh, gurbh, and mararbh and that they are used not only before all vowel-initial words, but also before aspirated f, e.g. Arbh fhear é? Táim cinnte gurbh fhear é!

And, yes, ní prefixes h (at least for some speakers) e.g. Ní hiontach liom go bhfuil an oiread sin ceisteanna agat!

quote:

"ab" is a past tense thing used with adjectives

It is used in Donegal (and maybe in other places) in the present tense, for example:

Ab é tusa a rinn an obair ? (Is it you who did the work?)

I know this might be a silly question, but why not use "An bhfuill tusa a rinn an obair?" What is the use of "Ab/gurb/..."?

"tá" and "is" are two separate words that both translate to English as "is".

"tá" is used mainly with adjectives and adverbs.
"is" is used mainly with nouns.

Is fuinneog í. It is a window.
Tá an fhuinneog mór. The window is big.

If you see a sentence that doesn't have a verb in Irish, then the verb is "is". For instance:

Mise Tomás.
(Is mise Tomás)

A Shieirál,

If you know a little Spanish, it's something like the distinction between ser and estar (and, in fact, like estar tá is derived from a verb whose original meaning is "stand"). I was actually taught to say is mór an fhuinneog í or fuinneog mhór í seo rather than tá an fhuinneog mór because size is an inherent property of the window rather than a temporary state.

Ah, I see. Thanks. :) I rarely use the copula because I suppose I haven't gotten that far in my studies. I had seen it off and on, but I haven't found a good lesson on it.
"is" has what forms total?

Go raibh maith agat, a Dhomhnaillín.

Coinnigh i gcuimhne gur tusa d'iarr sin d'fheiscint!

<http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul3.htm#%dcbersicht>

Hiya,

quote:

I've learned that the forms of the copula ar/gur/mara become ab/gurb/marab in front of 3rd person pronouns é/í/iad. But what if the copula occurs before a vowel initial noun? Does a 'b' appear again? For example do you say 'ar' or 'ab' in the following sentence: Ar/Ab ollscoil é Coláiste Mhuire? Also, does 'ní' cause h prefixation as it normally does with 3rd person pronouns?

Well, since you’re sticking to Cois Fhairrge Irish, my understanding is (1) to use “ar” (ar ollscoil é …?) and (2) to avoid using “h” after "ní” and before nouns (cf. "go mba hamhlaidh dhuit" often surfaces as “go mb’amhlaidh dhuit”, etc.).

By the way, I would recommend buying “Cois Fhairrge: an Deilbhíocht” (morphology) by Professor Tomás de Bhaldraithe, if you are interested in keeping to Cois Fhairrge Irish (and of course, there’s a good number of other grammar/lexicological books on Connemara Irish).

Beir bua agus beannacht!

The following comments relate to standard Irish.

quote:

For example do you say 'ar' or 'ab' in the following sentence: Ar/Ab ollscoil é Coláiste Mhuire?

Neither of those.
'Arbh ollscoil é Coláiste Mhuire?' = 'Was Coláiste Mhuire a university?'

quote:

Also, does 'ní' cause h prefixation as it normally does with 3rd person pronouns?

Not with nouns.
'Ní ollscoil é Coláiste Mhuire.' = 'Coláiste Mhuire isn't a university.'

quote:

'Is é athair Bhríd an múinteoir' and 'Is iad mná tí na múinteoirí freisin'? Are these two sentences correct?

The first one is fine:
'Is é athair Bhríd an múinteoir' = 'Bríd's father is the teacher.'

The second example doesn't make sense and I'm not sure what meaning was intended:
'The teachers are also housewives' = 'Is mná tí (iad) na múinteoirí freisin.'
'They are also the teachers' housewives.' = 'Is iad mná tí na múinteoirí iad freisin.'

"Ar ollscoil é Coláiste Mhuire?" = Is Coláiste Mhuire a university? (CF)

That sentence sounds a little unnatural to me, I'd have said "Tá Coláiste Mhuire ina ollscoil".

Tá Coláiste Mhuire ina hollscoil, with an h maybe?

"h" for feminine:

his apple = a úll

her apple = a húll


"Coláiste" is masculine.

But I think it depends not on the gender of coláiste, but on the gender of ollscoil in that sentence, right?

Tá XXX ina choláiste
Tá XXX ina hollscoil

Well I'd say:

Tá Síle ina cailín

instead of:

Tá Síle ina chailín

even though cailín is masculine, which is why I'd say "ina ollscoil".

quote:

"Coláiste" is masculine

Not in all dialects.

quote:

Tá Coláiste Mhuire ina ollscoil

This one sounds odd to me, I think the most natural way to say it is "Is ollscoil [é/í] Coláiste Mhuire".

Wow many replies!

quote:

Are you sure you don't mean "arb" instead of "ab"?
I think I've seen "arb" used in front of all sorts of vowels, be they nouns, adjectives, what have you.

"ab" is a past tense thing used with adjectives:

hmmm... well I've never seen the form "arb" so far in my studying. Perhaps this is dialectal but then again I'm only a beginner. Also, as for "ab" being a past tense it isn't in this case. According to Ó Siadhail these are the forms of the present tense copula:

Is mé an dochtúr "I am the doctor"
Ar mé an dochtúr? "Am I the doctor?"
Nach mé an dochtúr? "Am I not the doctor?"
Deir sé gur mé an dochtúr "He says that I am the doctor"

So you see, what I'm really talking about here are present tense copula forms. I haven't even yet covered the past tense ones in my studying.

quote:

Well, since you’re sticking to Cois Fhairrge Irish, my understanding is (1) to use “ar” (ar ollscoil é …?) and (2) to avoid using “h” after "ní” and before nouns (cf. "go mba hamhlaidh dhuit" often surfaces as “go mb’amhlaidh dhuit”, etc.).

So from what I can understand, "ar" and "gur" remain the same in front of a vowel initial noun and there is also no h prefix with "ní". Is that correct for the present tense?

The first one is fine:
'Is é athair Bhríd an múinteoir' = 'Bríd's father is the teacher.'

The second example doesn't make sense and I'm not sure what meaning was intended:
'The teachers are also housewives' = 'Is mná tí (iad) na múinteoirí freisin.'
'They are also the teachers' housewives.' = 'Is iad mná tí na múinteoirí iad freisin.'

I was simply wondering here whether nouns in genitive relation were considered definite because in my book it says that definite nouns must be preceded by the appropriate pronoun when used with the copula (eg: Is é an fear sin an sagart, Is í Cáit mo bhean.) My example 'Is iad mná tí na múinteoirí freisin.' was meant to mean 'The housewives are also the teachers'. I’ll admit it’s a bit of an odd sentence, but again my only question here was whether or not my usage of ‘iad’ was correct.

Now, I would have one more question. Are adjectives pluralized/inflected at all with the noun they modify when they are emphasized in copulative sentences.

For example, the adjective is emphasized in the following sentences:

Is deas an duine é "he is a nice person"
Is deas(a?) na daoine iad "they are nice people" (Does deas pluralize here to deasa??)

Thanks for all your replies!!

(Message edited by Angmar on July 31, 2008)

'The housewives are also the teachers' = 'Is iad na mná tí na múinteoirí fresin.'

Only attributive adjectives that directly following the noun they qualify show agreement.