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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (July - August) » Archive through August 02, 2008 » Last: deireannach Vs deiridh « Previous Next »

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Tomás_Ó_hÉilidhe
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Username: Tomás_Ó_hÉilidhe

Post Number: 59
Registered: 05-2008


Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 10:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is there a difference? I had an inkling that "deiridh" is used to refer to the actual last thing, i.e. the thing which was followed by no others, whereas "deireannach" was used to refer to the most recent thing.

For instance:

He gave me his last Rolo. (deiridh)

The last time I saw him he had red hair. (deireannach)

Or are the two words used interchangeably?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 7280
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 06:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is a matter of such dispute as gladdens the heart of certain grammarians....

The distinction you make can be drawn, but need not.

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Tomás_Ó_hÉilidhe
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Username: Tomás_Ó_hÉilidhe

Post Number: 62
Registered: 05-2008


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 09:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sort of like how we use "shall" and "will" interchangeably? (Well I myself never use "shall", but you get the idea!)

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 584
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 09:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One could imagine the difference occurring in a language that separated different types of sequences formally, i.e. one type of ordinality (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) for things from another, such as time (last time, next time, the time before last). Why you would is another story...

It is a good question tho, as I think languages are full of little bits and pieces of proportionality, which can get overlooked. Hell, in grammar books, the use of auxiliaries in the formation of aspect (finished/non-finished) is often ignored completely, eg: 'ní raibh mé ach tar éis a bheith ag ithe mo dhinnéar, nuair tháinig sé isteach agus dúirt sé "Tá na Spin Doctors le bheith ag imirt sa gCommunity Centre anocht"...

sold!

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 813
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ar ghrá an chruinnis...

"Ní raibh mé ach tar éis a bheith ag ithe mo dhinnéir" means "I had only just finished being eating my dinner", and is just about as awkward.

If I had only just sat down to dinner I might say "Ní raibh ach suite chun boird[/dinnéir] agam", or if I had just finished dinner "Ní raibh [an dinnéar] ach ite agam."
If you wanted you could also say "ní raibh mé ach tar éis suí chun boird" and "ní raibh mé ach tar éis mo dhinnéar a ithe" but why make it complicated (and who else's dinner would you have eaten anyway?)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 588
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 11:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"...and is just about as awkward. "

As awkward as what? I was actually just talking about the overlooking of aspect in grammar books, despite it's importance. If you look at O Siadhail's analysis, you can make out that the aspect system was taken wholesale into Hiberno English, which is an indication of how important it was to people. The same thing happens in other contact Englishes (like in Hawaii); aspect prevails over tense

(Message edited by Bearn on July 24, 2008)

sold!

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 814
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 04:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

As awkward as what?


As the English! "Bheith"/"being" in either one is extraneous for the meaning you're trying to convey.

It's not that you can't interpolate bheith into this construction - you can - but then it's progressive (or "continuous"? leanúnach anyway) so the níl...ach will tend to be interpreted differently.
Tá Seán tar éis ól: Seán has drunk.
Tá Seán tar éis a bheith ag ól: Seán has been drinking.
Níl Seán ach tar éis a bheith ag ól: Seán has only been drinking (but there's nothing else the matter with him.)

This topic is not overlooked in grammar books. Are you talking about grammar books, or self-study courses? I don't remember if the Christian Brothers' grammar in English discusses it or not but the one in Irish certainly does.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 589
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 07:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is glossed in the English version (don't have the Irish one).

Didn't mean to add the 'being' in in the first sentence, but I did. ..

The study books don't have them, but grammar books are not coherent in their treatment of them either

sold!



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