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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (July - August) » Archive through August 02, 2008 » Noun Learning Stategies « Previous Next »

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 366
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 04:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One of the great things about this site is that we have a wide range of speakers. From the newbie to the native, there is a wealth of knowledge here.

So I would like to hear from all levels of fluency on this matter. I think that nouns are one of the more difficult aspects of Irish. So I was wondering if people here would share their strategies for learning nouns?

I was looking through the various Irish learning courses I have here and I have noticed that they all seem to follow a pattern for covering nouns:

1) Introduce Noun Gender

2) Introduce Nominative Singular

3) Introduce Nominative Plural

4) Introduce Genitive Singular

5) Introduce Declensions

But is this really the best way? Or just a pattern that people have sort of gotten into when making courses?

I am wondering if it is it better to just try and learn the rules as you go? Or is it better to first master the rules of declension before you even start to see Irish nouns?

Myself, I believe it is better if you can master the rules first. I say this because some courses expose students to a lot of words before they get into how to use them. This leaves a student trying to learn the rules, while at the same time going back and try to relearn the noun with its proper declension.

This is very frustrating I think.

To overcome this, a typical flashcard of mine looks like this:

bronntanas (m1)

nom. an bronntanas na bronntanais

gen. an bhronntanais na mbronntanas

I think a beginner should know both the singular and plural of the nominative and genitive for every noun they know. But for me, the easiest way to do this is to know how to completely decline a noun in a given declension. This requires the mastery of the declensions first.

For instance, if I were designing a course, I would take the approach of learning by declension instead of learning by case with nouns:

1) Introduce Noun Gender

2) Introduce Cases (what they are)

3) Introduce First Declension

4) Introduce Second Declension

5) Introduce Third Declension

6) Introduce Fourth Declension

7) Introduce Fifth Declension


But I am curious how others approach the learning of nouns?

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 804
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 05:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To me noun declensions are convenient for discussing the language, not so much for learning and using it. I'd say don't waste too much time on them. They don't matter themselves, the pattern they describe is what matters. Similar words decline in similar ways, so once you get your head wrapped around what constitutes a "similar word" you'll be sorted. My approach to that was just to keep looking words up in the dictionary (their genders, genitives and plurals, not which declension they were) until eventually the rules soaked into my head. I learned to predict them more or less accurately, and more or less stopped having to look them up.

Then one day I went back and actually read the section in the Christian Brothers about declensions and what belongs in which. Click! Light bulb time! (Oh, so that's your "fourth declension", is it - words that don't change in the genitive? And they're almost always masculine, you say? Why, I guess they are, come to think of it.) The rules made sense because they were describing things I already knew.

I never did sit down and learn them as rules though, and so to this day I'm not sure I could reel off all five. If you asked me to decline a random noun right now, I'd just do it. If the noun was one I hadn't seen before, I'd simply think of another noun that ends similarly and decline the new one the same way; I wouldn't stop to associate the noun with a number from one to five and apply a set of rules pertaining to that number.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 369
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 05:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well that's sort of what I do also.

I have been learning the patterns by constantly writing and learning the singular and plural for the nom. and gen. as I encountered new words.

And after I learned the patterns, I started associating the patterns with the declensions. And as you said, "light bulb" time ;-)

But if one learns the patterns with the declensions right off, perhaps this could speed up the learning process?

There is no question that most people do not want to sit down and learn a bunch of rules when it comes to languages. People want to start speaking from day one. But, I have noticed that when people have a negative attitude to learning grammar rules, it is not because they don't want to know the rules, it's because they cannot understand the rules. Linguists, like all scientists, like to complicate things with techno-babble that only they or the really smart can decipher ;-)

I think if declension patterns can be put into simple terms, this strategy might be more effective than the case orientation which seems to be how the courses I have here have taken...just a thought.

How about those who suffered through Irish classes in Irish schools? How do they teach new words? What were some of the methods used?

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Sieirál
Member
Username: Sieirál

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 09:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think the theory of the flash card that has every form of a noun is probably the best one. Although, verbs could not be done the same way, as that would be one big card. And even some nouns have adjectives that they become and things like that. Sometimes it may be too much for one card. :) But it is a good idea to just learn the forms and then try and piece it together with the rules along the way.

If you learn the rules without words, you won't know examples of what they are meaning...and if you learn words without rules, you will only know what you memorize.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member
Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 54
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 04:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The advantage to learning patterns as you go instead of memorising declensions by brute force at the outset is that it prepares you for the variation you will encountre. Irish allws considerably more latitude in plural formation than other languages I know. Or, to quote Dillon and Ó Cróinín:
quote:

Many nouns have alternative plural forms: áiteanna and áiteacha are both common as plural forms of áit "place". In general, it may be said that plural forms in Irish are much freer than in English. As pl. of óráid, óráidí, óráideanna, óráideacha, óráidíocha would all be understood, and none of them would be shocking to a native speaker.


(A chainteorí dúchais, an bhfuil geit bainte asaibh?)

Just today, when responding to Student, I had a moment of hesitation when pluralising alt. Ailteanna was my first guess (and that of at least a few others as well, judging from the Ghits), but I wasn't sure so I checked the "official" usage and found ailt. Nevertheless, Google altanna and you'll find literally thousands of hits from from all manner of sites. (Altacha seems not to be used, perhaps to avoid confusion with the plural of altach "articulated".)

Compare this to English, where using a plural like "articli" or "articlen" would extremely unusual indeed, or German, where Artikeln (except in the dative!) or Artikler would be the mark of a non-native speaker. If you've learned your declensions by osmosis, altanna for ailt shouldn't throw you; otherwise, you may be left wondering why this strange new word isn't in your dictionary!

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 372
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 10:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

My noun cards usually look something like this:

bronntanas (m1)

an bronntanas na bronntanais
an bhronntanais na mbronntanas



My verb cards usually look something like this:

tiomáin (1)

thiomáin
tiomáineann
tiomáinfidh
ag tiomáint



Now are these the only things needed to be known, absolutely not. However, I think these cover a good base for myself at a lower level of Irish.

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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 585
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 09:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Your (extra) article is sticking out of your noun phrase!

sold!

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 373
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 10:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Extra article? I am not following you?

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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 587
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 11:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sorry, they were just lists of words in declension patterns. Should have read them, not just glossed

sold!



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