Ok, so according to LI one can say mo charrsa to say ' my car' with a contrastive meaning and mo charr féin 'my own car' to emphasize possession. Now, I was wondering can both contrast and emphatic forms be used at the same time with the possessive adjectives as they are with certain pronominal constructions (eg: tusa thú féin)? I'm figuring it would look somethink like this mo bhordsa féin or 'mo bhordsa mé féin to say my own table'. Is this kind of construction possible at all with the possessive adjectives?

Also, Ó'Siadhail writes mo chuidsa for 'mine'. However, I would think it should be written mo chuidse because of the preceding slender consonant. What is the correct spelling and is the s pronounced slender at all? Perhaps this is a dialectal thingy again?

Thanks!

It's a dialectal thingy. The standard, as you say, is "mo chuidse."

Sure, you can use both at once - "mo charrsa féin", "mo bhordsa féin." Not very common but it can be done. What you wouldn't say is "mo bhordsa mé féin."

As for their usage, it's not quite as simple as contrast vs. possession but I haven't hit on a better way to explain it! Suggestions welcome.

It's quite difficult to express actually.

"Féin" conveys an idea of identity, particularity, uniqueness. I can't think of an equivalent in English, but it's a lot like "mismo" in Spanish and can be used in many of the same constructions:
'nosotros mismos' = 'sinn féin'
'hoy mismo' = 'inniu féin'
'en Irlanda misma' = 'in Éirinn féin"

While the emphatic suffix and "féin" can both be applied to a noun ('mo leabharsa féin') it isn't common, probably because the sense is a bit redundant: if the book is yours and not anyone else's then it's pointless to say that it's particularly yours. Would anyone say 'mi libro mismo' - it sounds peculiar to my ear? "Mi libro' seems to say it all.

But the combination is quite common with verbs ('deirimse féin' = 'yo mismo digo') because there are really two related ideas involved: I rather than anyone else say it, and I do so apart from anyone else.

Hope this is of some help.

Thanks Abigail and Grumpy Old Fogey!

quote:

What you wouldn't say is "mo bhordsa mé féin."

Well, I thought it might have been the right way to say it since accoding to LI on says mise mé féin but not mise féin.

quote:

While the emphatic suffix and "féin" can both be applied to a noun ('mo leabharsa féin') it isn't common, probably because the sense is a bit redundant: if the book is yours and not anyone else's then it's pointless to say that it's particularly yours. Would anyone say 'mi libro mismo' - it sounds peculiar to my ear? "Mi libro' seems to say it all.

Hmmm... this quite resembles French! In French though you would use the word 'même' in most of the examples you gave in Spanish and the word 'propre' when used with possessive adjectives. So, your example 'mi libro mismo' which I believe means 'my own book' can be said in French as 'mon propre livre' and is a frequently used form. You also can say 'aujourd'hui même' which is the meaning I think of 'hoy mismo'. Anyway, I know very little about Spanish and French is my mother tongue. Maybe someone who knows both Gaeilge and French well can give their further knowledge on the ressemblance between féin and même.


Thanx again!

mé -me
mise -me
mé féin -myself
mise mé féin -myself

bord -table
mo bhord -my table
mo bhordsa -my table
mo chuid bord -my tables [gen pl]
mo bhordsa féin -my table
mo bhordsa mé féin. ????

"mo bhordsa féin." Not very common but it can be done. What you wouldn't say is "mo bhordsa mé féin."

The last example is perhaps overkill

quote:

mo bhordsa mé féin

I am my own(emphatic) table?

Yes sir! [gives little punch to the air] My very own little table!

:D haha, that's halarious!

That pretty much answers all of my questions although the exact function/meaning of contrastive forms is still a bit mysterious to me. I guess it's just one of these things I will start picking up the more I learn and the more I'm in contact with the language. Emphatic usage however seems more obvious in meaning to me. I imagine that is probably due to the fact that I have a near equivalent in both the languages I speak. Anyways thanks for the help!!!

Slán!

Depending on what dialect of English you speak, you might be able to draw a one-to-one connection between emphatic forms in English and Irish.

For instance, I myself live in Dublin and I speak sort of workingclass/middleclass English. For me, I pronounce "you" as "ye", but when I'm emphasising it I say it as "you". For "him", I say "um", but again I'll say "him" if I'm emphasising.

So... if, in a given context, I were to pronounce "you" as "you", then that means I'd be saying "tusa" in Irish.

For instance, let's say I'm walking through a pub and a friend of mine taps me on the shoulder, I might turn around and say:

Oh hey, didn't see ye there, how are ye?! == Conas atá tú?

This time, let's say someone has said "How are ya doing?" to me, and this is my response:

Oh I'm grand thanks for asking, and how are you?! == Conas atá tusa?

There comes an instant when you just twig emphatic forms in Irish. It happened in a split second for me, and ironically it happened during my oral Irish example for the leaving cert. The examiner asked me about a road traffic accident, and I had to describe what I done and what the driver did, and I found myself coming out with "mise" and "seisean". I wasn't long before I was saying "agamsa" instead of "agam", or "ceapaimse" instead of "ceapaim", or "mo rangsa" instead of "mo rang".

I'm not sure if you'll get the hang of emphatic forms from reading books and stuff, I think you really have to use them yourself in free-flowing speech.

Just one other thing, there's no concrete rules for using emphatic forms. Different people express themselves in different ways, so there might be times when one person would use an emphatic form and another person wouldn't. That said though, I think there definitely are times when an emphatic form (or perhaps a normal form) is definitely called for, and anything else might sound odd.

how are yiz?/howar yiz duwen?
and how are you?

A very good example, I think. Bulaí fir!

Just one other thing, there's no concrete rules for using emphatic forms. Different people express themselves in different ways, so there might be times when one person would use an emphatic form and another person wouldn't.

In the few episodes of Paddywhackery that I've watched, Peig Sayers seems to use emphatics pretty routinely.

Domhnall O hA