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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (July - August) » Archive through July 11, 2008 » Translating a text and can't find a word in dictionnary... « Previous Next »

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Niamh83
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Username: Niamh83

Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 05:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,

Wondered if anyone could help. I am translating an old Medieval tale from French into Irish and I am missing the word for "manuscript". Focloir says: "lamhscribhinn" but that's "manuscript" as in "written by hand", I am looking for a word for the actual manuscripts where you'd have found the histories of monastries, transcriptions of Gregorian Chants, etc. As this is quite fundamental to my story, it is sort of important I find the right word, or at least, convey the right idea in a not too stylistically heavy way (I'll then have to learn this story for a comhortas in Ireland, so it has to be kept failry simple). Anyway, thanks for your help! Adh mor. Niamh. :.)

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 548
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 08:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Niamh, A Chara:

Don't you think "written by hand" conveys the way in which Medieval transcriptions were recorded? Until the invention of the printing press that's how history and literature were recorded as well as reproduced.

I don't have another word for you but I thought I'd give my perspective. Sometimes the writer is too close to the subject. From a potential reader's perspective, I would fully understand and appreciate the meaning of lamhscribhinn. As one who has a rather elementary understanding of Irish, I would intuitively translate lamhscribhinn as "written by hand."

Just my two cents worth.

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.
Fáilte roimh cheartú, go deo.

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Míshásta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 08:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

'Manuscript' means a document or book written by hand.

"Lámhscríbhinn" plural "lámhscríbhinní" is the word you want.

Wait for confirmation from more learned contributors.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 782
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 10:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"lámhscríofa" - manuscript, handwritten (an adjective)
"lámhscríbhinn" - manuscript, a handwritten document (a noun)

Compare to "clóscríbhinn", which is a typed or printed document, and "bunscríbhinn" which is an original document.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4030
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 12:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Úsáidtear an giorrúchán LS uaireanta, ar nós MS i mBéarla.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 339
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 02:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Have you considered other words than "manuscript?"

At first when you descibed what you are looking for, the first words that popped into my head were things like chronicles, documents, or just plain records.

The nitty bitty of it is that "manuscript" is devrived from Latin's "manu scriptus." Which literally means "written by hand." So in that case, "lámhscríbhinní" would be quite on the mark.

But if you are looking more for a word with the meaning of a historical record of something, I suggest looking at these types of words.

chronicle = croinic
chronicles = croinicí

document = doiciméad
documents = doiciméid

old document = seandoiciméad
old documents = seandoiciméid

record = taifead
records = taifid

old record = seanthaifead
old records = seanthaifid

These are just suggestions.

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4033
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 04:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

old record = seanthaifead
old records = seanthaifid

Tá rud éigin mícheart anseo. Cad é?

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 340
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 09:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Do you mean in terms of how I wrote it...or...the word "taifead" itself?

When I look up "record" I get a whole list of possibilities...but I thought maybe this word would be the first option that meant "record" in terms of documentation?

I know that "sean" doesn't aspirate a "d" but I wasn't certain if that applied to "t" also?

If you meant the words "taifead" and "taifid"...I took them straight from An Foclóir Beag.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on July 06, 2008)

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4034
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 11:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I know that "sean" doesn't aspirate a "d" but I wasn't certain if that applied to "t" also?

Bingo. :-)

The DeNTaLS rule is at work here. When two words are joined into one compound word, the second word is normally lenited. But a dental consonant at the end of the first word will block lentition of any dental at the beginning of the second word.

"DeNTaLS watch each other's backs."

sean + bróg > seanbhróg

Ach:

sean + duine > seanduine
sean + teach > seanteach


mall +briathrach > mallbhriathrach (slow-talking)

Ach:

mall + triallach > malltriallach (slow-moving, sluggish)


cos + muintir > cosmhuintir (proles)

Ach:

cos + tinn > costinn (footsore)


agus mar sin de.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 341
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 07:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I see what you mean now. Cool, GRMA Dennis a chara.

So for the record ;-)

record = taifead
records = taifid

old record = seantaifead
old redords = seantaifid

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Tomás_Ó_hÉilidhe
Member
Username: Tomás_Ó_hÉilidhe

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 01:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

But a dental consonant at the end of the first word will block lentition of any dental at the beginning of the second word.

I ngach canúint?

Bhí mé ag smaoineamh cad a thabharfaí ar "Institute of Technology" as Gaoluinn?

Institiúid Theicneolaíochta

Institiúíd Teicneolaíochta ?

Tá 's agam go ndeirtear "bean dheas" mar sin nílim cinnte.

Dosna cainteoiríbh dúchasachaibh inár measc, cad a déarfádh sibh?

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 474
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 01:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní "Institiúid Theicneolaíochta" ná "bean dheas" comhfhocail.

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 4036
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 01:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tabhair faoi deara go ndúirt mé "When two words are joined into one compound word". All bets are off nuair nach comhfhocal atá i gceist.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Niamh83
Member
Username: Niamh83

Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 03:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go rabh mile maith agaibh as na freagrai ar fad! Abigail, ta tu ceart, ni rabh mé cinnte idir an ainmfhocal agus an aidiacht (as in "a manuscript" versus "this letter is manuscript" as Béarla). Ach ta tu ceart, bheadh an adiacht "lamhscriofa" so nil "ambiguities" ann ansin! Ta mé ag cuairtu an focal "manuscript" i ndairire mar ta an sceal ata mé ag aistriu faoi manach a bhi ag scriobh lamhscribhinn i mainistir so sin é an focal ata uaim i ndairire. Ach bhi sé aisteach, bhi mé ag amharc piosa den chlar ar TG4 ar an t-idirlion areir. Ni rabh mé cinnte cén chlar a bhi ann ach chuala mé an focal "lamhscribhinn" ansin! B'chlar faoi Star é agus bhi seandalai ag caint faoi na ruadai sin ansin! Nach aisteach é sin! Ach go rabh maith agaibh as na freagrai ar fad, ta siad iontach maith, mar is ghnath! :.)



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