http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Irish

An bhfuil níos mó eolas ag duine ar bith? Bhíos ag caint le daoine i bPort Láirge bliain ó shin a dúirt go raibh siad thall agus go bhfuil cainteoir Gaeilge fágtha ann.

Duine at bith agaibh chun staideár a dhéanamh air.

eolas : knowledge
cainteoir Gaeilge : Irish speaker

Sa Daonáireamh deireanach Talamh an éisc bhí cúigear cainteoirí "Gaelic" n'fheadar Gaeilge nó Gaidhlig ach is dóigh liom Gaeilge a bheas i gceist. Sa leabhar Wherever Green is Worn scríofa ag Tim Pat Coogan bhuail sé le fear O'Brien seminative speaker ab ea é.D'fhoghlaim sé Gaeilge óna hathair.Tá sé in ráfla go bhfuil cainteoirí Gaeilge fós san 'outcrops' i dTalamh an éisc agus Labrador sé sin áiteanna iargúlta nach bhfuil fáil orthu ach amháin ar an mbád.

I was surprised to find out that not only did they have a measurable amount of Irish speakers, but the unofficial flag of New Foundland is a tri-color (pink, white, green).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_Tricolour

The lover of all things Irish in me likes the legend better than the second paragraph, but you can choose to believe whatever you want ;-)

Legend holds that the flag was created in St. John's in 1843 by the Roman Catholic Bishop of Newfoundland, Michael Anthony Fleming. The flag is supposedly symbolic of a tradition between local Protestants and Catholics. The annual wood hauls of firewood by sealers, waiting for their vessels to leave the port of St. John's, would get embroiled in a competition to supply wood to the Anglican cathedral, Roman Catholic cathedral, schools and other charity institutions. The Protestant English marked their wood piles with the pink flag of the Natives' Society, while the Catholic Irish used green banners. The threat of violence was such that the Speaker of the House, William Carson, suggested that Bishop Fleming should be enlisted as a peacemaker. Rather than simply preaching sermons, it was decided that Fleming would try to unite the sides.[4] To that end, Bishop Fleming persuaded the two factions to adopt a common flag, tying together the pink and green flags of the two groups with a white handkerchief, which was to symbolize peace.[5][6] The pink symbolized the Protestant English and was supposed to have been taken from the Tudor rose (which is actually red and white, not pink), while the green symbolized the Catholic Irish. The white was taken from the Cross of St. Andrew, the patron saint of fishermen and Scotland.[1]

The historical record differs from the legend above. The Native society flag was red, not pink, and there is no evidence of Bishop Fleming creating the Pink White and Green Flag. A Red White and Green flag seems to have been unofficially used as the flag of Newfoundland until the 1870s, when for reasons which are not clear, it disappeared from use to be replaced by a Pink, White and Green Flag. In the 1880s and 1890s the Pink White and Green flag came into widespread use as a "native flag."

I also just got to reading the article in the extended links section: "Newfoundland: The Most Irish Place Outside of Ireland" by Brian McGinn.

http://ics.leeds.ac.uk/papers/vp01.cfm?outfit=ids&folder=158&paper=159

There are a few things that I would check on first but it was a good read.

In it he says, "...To this beautiful yet forbidding land, a third again as big as Ireland itself, the Irish brought their surnames and place names, their Gaelic games and language, their folklore(9), music and religion..."

But that is not true unless he was speaking of something other than land size itself. Because Newfoundland has an area of 111,390 km2 while Ireland only has an area of 84,412 km2.

Thinking about it, I wonder what history would be like if Irish had taken over Newfoundland and stayed? Then there would be an area larger than Ireland herself speaking Irish! Well, minus the population, unless the area warms a bit I don't think millions of people are going to be settling the area ;-) but still, I think it would be neat to have such an Irish speaking area in the western hemisphere. It would save my pocket book from my annual visits to Ireland...lol

A Dho Chinniuint a chara,

That would be grand, then Irish would certainly be doing better if there was a whole nother place speaking it, and yes going to Ireland is so dreadfully expensive. I'd get to be exposed to irish more if Newfoundland spoke it because my dad would be more willing to take me there than all the way across the sea.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Riona, I have not seen you around here as much of late? Been busy?

I think that Newfoundland has a very interesting story tell. And if Irish had rooted itself and grew there, then the story would be even better. It would be every interesting if the people of Newfoundland would create a large Gaeltacht also.

I know that Gaeltacht Bhaile na hÉireann, or Gaeltacht Bhuan Mheiriceá Thuaidh, or whatever you want to call it has the honor of being the first officially recognized Gaeltacht out of Ireland, however, I am also wondering if that honor could also have gone to Newfoundland? I mean, the reports are suggesting that Irish was a moderately strong community language until the 20th century, I would think that could have qualified Newfoundland as a Gaeltacht also?

I will confess that I am very interested in learning more about Newfoundland and the Irish. I only wish it wasn't so far north, I can't imagine those Canadian winters ;-)

A mo chinniúint,

In it he says, "...To this beautiful yet forbidding land, a third again as big as Ireland itself, the Irish brought their surnames and place names, their Gaelic games and language, their folklore(9), music and religion..."}

But that is not true unless he was speaking of something other than land size itself. Because Newfoundland has an area of 111,390 km2 while Ireland only has an area of 84,412 km2.

"a third again as big" = "one-and-a-third times as big". 84,412 + (84,412 ÷ 3) = 112,549, or close enough to 111,390 as makes no nevermind.

HTH, HAND

Ah I see what he is saying...I thought he meant that Ireland was 1/3 of Newfoundland. Good catch.

What is interesting is that I just looked through the 2001 Canadian Census and I found where ten people claimed to be fluent Irish speakers.

It's under the Mother Tongue PDF

Here's an interesting situation. I was reading the article about Newfoundland Irish at wikipedia. It says, "Scholars at Memorial University of Newfoundland have concluded that Newfoundland Irish became extinct during the 20th century." And yet in the 2001 census, 10 men did infact claim it as their mother tongue. Not to mention 20 Welsh speakers. I wonder who is right?

To see it just go to the Mother Tongue PDF on the home page of the Census.

If these men are telling truth, and there is no evidence to suggest they are, or are not, then language death hasn't happened has it?


(Message edited by do_chinniúint on May 21, 2008)

But if you really think about it they mean Irish as a community language has gone extinct in Newfoundland, not that there aren't any people at all who speak Irish, after all I'm sure there are some people living in America who spoke Irish as a mother tongue, either because their parents were Irish or because they were born in Ireland.

I'm still around, I just only comment when things are pertinant. I like talking to the all of you.

Beir bua agus beannacht

True,

But then again, if these 10 men are living in the same area speaking Irish together, wouldn't that be a community language lol...

I mean in order for them to say the language is extinct that means that there are no longer any native speakers left.

If Newfoundland Irish is extinct, then there can be no native speakers in Newfoundland. But there are 10 people claiming to be native speakers from Newfoundland, so we have a problem.

Now the case becomes what Irish are they speaking? You are absolutely correct. These 10 men could be native speakers from Ireland that settled there or just 10 guys who became fluent out of love for the language, however, there is no evidence to prove or disprove this. If they are from there, where did the Irish come from? If they learned it there in Canada, from family and the community, then it may have been Newfoundland Irish.

Newfoundland for the most part was mixture from the southern counties. So their Irish, would have most likely been Munster Irish dialects. I am trying to find sources on the dialects and dialect differences from their counterparts in Munster, but so far the stuff I am seeing on the web doesn't say much more than they came from the southern counties and settle into the area over the years.

I am having trouble finding information to support their claims, but then I am also having trouble finding information to support the conclusion of Memorial University of Newfoundland. I have sent an email asking about their research, or a point of contact about it, but I have not received anything back from them. There is no set number that defines a "community." A group is a group. I was always told that a group is 3 or more. Here we have possibly 10. It is just as plausible that they made a mistake.

Anyone seen The Shipping News? Interesting film with well known actors in it but it made Newfoundland look really ... nasty/grose. The story was interesting though if you try to not think too hard about those bits, really gave Newfoundland a bad rep.

Beir bua agus beannacht