I'd like to propose that a Frequently-Asked Questions section be added to this website. This way when the perennial inquiries like "which study materials should I use" or "which dialect should I study," etc., are asked, a link can be given to that page and the thread closed.

Ah, but who would moderate it?

I think this was suggested a few years back, and the consensus was that the search function would help.

It's not really suitable for an FAQ, there being no correct or simple answers.

It's not really suitable for an FAQ, there being no correct or simple answers.

I would say, even if there is no one correct answer, a general statement could be made and that would constitute the body of the answer. The chief benefit is that it will short-circuit these unending squabbles over asinine issues that serve only to cause strife and acrimony and, worst, drive would-be learners away from this site. The question gets asked, the link gets posted, and the thread gets closed.

The problem, I think, is that people always tend to take the path of least resistance, so most people just don't use the search function; it's easier to just ask the question and hope for a reply.

Anyway, just an idea, but I think it could work.

One other thing that might work is requiring a quick registration before one can post. This would prevent some people, like our Unregistered Guest friend(s) of late, who are plainly here only to troll; if they get booted for trolling, it takes time and effort to have to reregister every time they want treat this board like a urinal.

I know this has been discussed before, but I think the benefits are clear. I have a hard time believing a quick registration will disuade somebody who's serious about getting a question answered. If they care enough about learning the language to be moved to search this place out, a quick registration requiring only that they pick a username and password will not dissuade them from asking a question once they arrive here. On the other hand, I think it would likely be too much trouble for the garden variety troll (notice they are almost uniformly Unregistered Guests).

Benefits all around.

The registration's only as good as the info given. For instance do chinniuint's full name is given as "ask me". And there are several more - doesn't tell you much more than unregistered.And we've also had several who registered and were ardent flamethrowers.

You're absolutely correct. However, people's honesty in providing their contact details isn't what I'm aiming for. I'm simply assuming that making somebody register, even with bogus info, is more trouble than the average troll is willing to take. If somebody comes in here and is serially abusive, condescending, rude, priggish, nasty, etc., then the admin can kevork that alias easily. Eventually the person in question will grow weary of having to reregister all the time and go inflict himself on some other forum.

I would suggest it would be worth at least a try; if it proves to be not beneficial, it would be easy enough to go back to this way and continue on as before. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

What you plan I would call simply censorship.

No damage is done, if in a controversial topic follows a heated discussion. Who don't like it, won't participate in a touchy theme. (And there are touchy themes about Irish, you can't deny it, only silence them.)

The board solely prohibits the discussion of politics and open advertisement.

If you think someone is a troll, you don't have to feed him but you can ignore him.

Outside of totalitarism (ugh, I say something political) there is some friction usual, when people discuss and we have been all the time calmer and more civil than the Italian parlament most of his time.

So don't plan an opinion police, please. Adults must be able to cope with such ado.

Actually, Ingeborg, censorship is exactly what I'm proposing.

I'm sorry if that makes me seem like a Word Nazi. Honestly, in general I'm all about free speech, free love, free booze, free whatever! However, this isn't a government agency, it's a private board. Not *every* forum needs to be a complete free-for-all for every deranged troll who just wants to vent his spleen or promote some asinine partisan agenda.

The owners can and will do what they think best and I should be clear that I'm grateful for this service. I don't pay for it, and I've taken great benefit from it -- quite a rare bargain.

I just think we can't be surprised when would-be students take one look at some of these threads, make the sign of the cross, and navigate elsewhere. Ignoring trolls won't change that.

What about selecting the 5 most asked questions and asking an academic of note, capable of a high degree of independence and rational to give a simple rational fair and logical response?

I think that people might be put off learning Irish a bit from seeing this. I apologise if ever I done this but I feel it is good to have a variety of views.

I know that I wrote a couple of posts unregistered at first, partly to help me pick a name that was suitable and didn't insinuate that I had busted out of jail :). I think that people should continue to be allowed to post unregistered. When I first started I felt that any forum that forced one to register was blatently stupid and eliteist. My opinion has loosened since then but it still is nice that people have some measure of freedom around here, particularly since they are unfree in other areas, namely the discussion of politics. A tad of freedom is good and better than none at all.

Besides, this has been discussed before and Caoimhin hasn't implimented it, hence he isn't going to now.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A number of points:

1. Nothing you do will ever prevent asinine squabbles. If they bother you, the best policy is not to get involved.
2. If Unregistered Guest's Corkonian chauvinism is the worst trollery youse have ever had to contend with here, then this is a rare island of sanity on the Internet. In any case, it hardly seems grounds for increased restrictions on posting.
3. I'm not convinced that Unregistered Guest isn't, in fact, a registered regular who's chose to post anonymously. There are suspicious similarities in tone and content to signed posts I've seen elsewhere on the board.
4. If beginners are genuinely put off learning Irish by these discussions, then, frankly, it's unlikely they would've gone very far with it in any case. This group seems aimed more towards the serious learner than the dabbler and that's something I can appreciate.
5. Judging by the number of responses in the "Which dialect?" thread, I don't think I'm alone when I say I enjoy these discussions in their own right and would never want to see them forbidden. In fact, a prohibition like that would drive me away sooner than the occasional touch of incivility.
6. Upon discovering this board, I was frankly surprised at the lack of FAQ. I think it would definitely be to the benefit of the board to have one.
7. There's nothing preventing any of the members here from going off and writing their own answers to frequently-asked questions and posting a link to them whenever those questions arise.
8. If registration were required for this board, then I most likely would never have joined. (I leave it to youse to determine what effect that has on the desirability of mandatory registration.)
9. As it is, I've only gone to the trouble of registering because of being bullied into by arbitrary bouts of moderation. (At this very moment, I've got a response to another thread that hasn't appeared yet because I posted it without logging in and now it's waiting some moderator's imprimatur. Why? No idea. I've asked what the policy is--something that should definitely go into a FAQ, IMNSFHO--and gotten no replies.)

Domhnall Liaim Liaim

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on May 05, 2008)

quote:

I'm not convinced that Unregistered Guest isn't, in fact, a registered regular who's chose to post anonymously.

Tá a fhios ag madraí an bhaile cé hé. Baineann sé feidhm as a lán ainmneacha cleite éagsúla anseo, ach ní dóigh liom go raibh sé cláraithe riamh.

quote:

arbitrary bouts of moderation

An bhfuil moderation le feiceáil ar an liosta seo? ;-) Seriously, ní raibh fhios agam go raibh imprimatur ón mbainisteoireacht ag teastáil. An féidir go raibh technical glitch ann? Bain triail eile as.

Fáilte romhat "go hoifigiúil" ós mar sin atá tú anseo anois! Tá áthas orm go bhfuil tú inár measc, O Freckled Dan of the Long Strides, agus tá mé cinnte go mbeidh deis nó dhó agat an cur agus cúiteamh anseo a dhéanamh níos suimiúla.

Bíonn deacrachtaí ó am go ham leis an scagaire turscar, bhí deacrachtaí agam fhéin leis.

Bíonn níos lú deacrachtaí ag daoine atá aitheanta.

Ach ní bhíonn Caoimhín an faire ar gach nath...

An teachtaireacht i dtrácht:

Your message has been submitted to the message queue, where it will be considered by moderators for addition to the board. Note that your message will not show up on the message page until it has been approved by a moderator.

Cad é ba cheart dom a mheas agus mise dh'fheiceáil sin?

Sure and that never happened to me in the brief days of being an unregistered guest, must be new, or at least relatively new as in it didn't exist 2 and a bit years ago.

Beir bua agus beannacht

What irritates me is that it doesn't always happen. I didn't see that message yesterday, for instance, or when I first began contributing to the board. So the first time it appeared, I didn't know if I had overstepped some unstated limit and was now on probation, if it was an (unannounced) new precaution due to recent spamming attempts, or what was going on. And I'm accustomed to more transparent moderation in the other discussion groups I participate in, so I found it very off-putting--moreso after I'd e-mailed asking for an explanation and gotten none.

(Dálta an scéil, tá teachtaireacht eile scríofa in nGaelainn agam is freagra ar Aonghus agus Dennis é agus ní bhfaca aon duine é cheana toisc go bhfuil sé sa scuaine fós. Cé nach é deireadh an tsaoil é, ní mó ná ana-shásúil ach oiread.)

quote:

Dálta an scéil...

An bhfuil an leagan seo de "dála an scéil" coitianta i gCúige Mumhan? Rinne mé é a chuardach, agus fuair mé cúig shampla de: dhá cheann ó Dháil Éireann, 1933 agus 1935, agus trí cinn ó dhuine darb ainm bréige "An Ghearb" (The Scab) ar Pholitics.ie. Cá bhfuair tú féin é, a Dhomhnaill?

Beginning in the last year or so, we have occasionally queued posts from unregistered guests for review prior to posting, or in many cases, deletion.

That fact should have been articulated in our Terms of Service and now is.

The queue is an all or nothing affair, which is not topic specific. It has been applied when necessary, to unregistered guests only, to prevent discussions from devolving into diatribe. As noted by Dennis, we forbid little, but over the years have increasingly lost tolerance for trollish provocateurs.

Whether the boards remain open to any but registered users, remains to be seen. For now they will. We have {finally} begun a ground up site redesign for Daltaí and will be reexamining site polices, including that one.

As for FAQs, they would be a welcome addition to the boards and invite anyone interested to contribute. All suitable submissions will be posted with attribution.

Caoimhín

I would suggest improving the forum so we could add pictures, picture links to gaeltube etc and that type of thing.. It'd brighten up the place like nobody's business!

A Chaoimhín,

Many thanks for the explanation. I suppose I should've addressed my concerns to you in the first place, but I mistakenly thought this was an "editorial" issue rather than a "technical" one. So maybe you could explain to me: Exactly what sorts of inquiries do go to Liam rather than to you?

Also, is there any way to let users know that queuing is in effect before they send off their message for posting? In the past, there have been time-sensitive replies that I never would've bothered writing had I known it might be a delay of hours before they were visible.

A Dhennis,

Fuaireas "dálta an sgéil" i n-Ó Cuív (1944). N'fheadar i n-aon chor an bhfuil sé coitianta i nGaelainn na Mumhan, ach is méin liomsa é!

If you do remodel the site, please don't make it too complicated, I really appreciate how easy this site is to use and I'd be disappointed if it became dreadfully difficult.

Beir bua agus beannacht

"I would suggest improving the forum so we could add pictures, picture links to gaeltube etc and that type of thing.. It'd brighten up the place like nobody's business!"

Yes, A Dhomnaill, it would be rather gay, so to speak...!


Make it funky, ya ya! Like, say, George Michael...

I would suggest improving the forum so we could add pictures, picture links to gaeltube etc

Gaeltube? Finscéalach! Seo daoibh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfQHOOdhvxc

Oh, and I want curtains too!

quote:

Gaeltube? Finscéalach!

Ahem. Ní chiallaíonn "finscéalach" "(that is so) Fabulous!" It means "fairytale-like", or "legendary, fictitious". The word you probably want here is "Togha!"

Thanks. These are the results of using a dictionary that doesn't always provide context in its translations.

Tuigim. You gotta get good at doing a dance called the "Two-Step Foclóirico": look up the word, English-Irish, then check the Irish word(s) given in that dictionary against what's in FGB. Often that helps to clarify the semantic range, etc.

Óigh bhéigh, tá sésin bananaí. :)

Nach bhfuil na dhá focloirí infhaighte go méaraí fós?

A Dhomhnaill, an bhfuilir á fhiafraí an mbeidh botúin ann fós agus go fiú an dá fhoclóir agat? Tá, ach beid siad níos lú de mhéid.

quote:

Nach bhfuil na dhá focloirí infhaighte go méaraí fós?

Nach bhfuil an dá fhoclóir ar fáil ar líne fós? An í sin do cheist? Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil. Tá leagan digiteach de FGB ar fáil ar dhiosca, ceart go leor, ach ní oibríonn sé ar Mac. Níl cóip de agam mar sin.

And for the record,

I didn't give my personal information for just that purpose. Some stranger I didn't know decided to look me up, for whatever their reason. If you want to know who I am, feel free to ask me, however, it is neither safe nor smart to put such information freely on internet.

Also, if anyone is tired of the debates and topics that have no end, then don't partake in them. No one is forcing anyone to. But they are not going away anytime soon, because every new student of Irish is going to face them, and when they do they are going to form opinions and what to chat about them. Deal with it...

Are you aware that you don't have to give your real information over the inernet?

Obviously, nobody is proposing that you be forced to give your real contact information. Such a "requirement" is not remotely possible in any event. The proposal is merely that new, would-be posters be required to take two minutes out of their lives to register before they are permitted to post.

By all means, let them feel free to register using fictitious information and totally bogus hotmail accounts that they create in thirty seconds on the fly. The point is that trolls are typically too lazy to do even that, so requiring it of them will weed them out.

Likewise, if a visitor is so incredibly lazy that this simple requirement is too much for him, then I daresay it's unlikely he'd be motivated enough to learn an obscure language like Irish.

As I've said more than once, polishing one's halo by studiously ignoring trollish threads is denial at best, and chicken-shit at worst. My position is that if anti-Irish trolls want a forum to trash this language, they can create their own. There's no reason they should be free to use this forum as their graffiti wall.

But there are a lot of people who do not want to be regular posters or members of this forum who can still potentially bring a wealth of positives to this forum and still remain anonymous.

I am not saying your proposal is a bad idea. However, this site is visited many times a day by both stranger and regular alike. Are you willing to accept the sacrifice that comes when by limiting the potential bad you also limit the potential good?

Registration requirements of any kind are first steps to making this an elitist group. Which I feel would go against the very intent of this website, a free and open discussion forum where people from all over can come and be part of.

I don't think it is only the trollers that need to be put in their place. The regulars, and the coming regulars such as myself, are just as guilty of continually engaging in the same debates, and often sharing their negative views of Irish.

If I might suggest, I think an alternative suggestion for this sight is to be more specific with the boards. We may need more than just an Irish only and General Board. Perhaps, if we had an Irish only, and then break the General board into specific boards like one for Irish grammar topics, Irish translations topics, Irish learning topics, and maybe one for general Ireland related topics for both Irish and English, we might be able to give more specialized attention to the people seeking help, and maybe even minimize off topic debates if we become more strict with the rules or the enforcement of the current rules which I think are more than OK.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on May 08, 2008)

Mandatory, free registration before posting is the norm on practically every discussion board I've posted on except this one. It doesn't seem to result in elitism anywhere else, nor does it seem to deter cranks (which seem to be more what you're objecting to than "trolls" anyway.)

What it does do is simplify communication (no more Unregistered Guest vs. Unregistered Guest arguments!), deter spambots, and provide the moderators with a mechanism for identifying and ultimately banning abusers.
It's a minimal, one-time inconvenience, and as others have pointed out it doesn't force you to reveal any personal information whatsoever. Since it's free and extended to all comers, I don't see where the elitism comes in either.

Caoimhín, I don't know how extensive your upgrade plans are, but some sort of private messaging system would be lovely, so that people who want to get in touch with each other don't have to exchange email addresses in public.

(Message edited by Abigail on May 08, 2008)

The point is that trolls are typically too lazy to do even that, so requiring it of them will weed them out.

As it is, I don't see typical trolls on this board; I see dedicated cranks who I have no reason to believe would be dissuaded by the additional barriers you propose.

Likewise, if a visitor is so incredibly lazy that this simple requirement is too much for him, then I daresay it's unlikely he'd be motivated enough to learn an obscure language like Irish.

So now this board is exclusively for learners? Fairly often, I see one-off postings here by visitors asking for a simple Irish translation or explanation of a single point of usage. These posts often spark interesting discussions among the regulars--I've personally learned something from almost every one. Such visitors might well be dissuaded from posting by having to complete a registration process, and I think the board would be poorer on account of it.

(Also, it's not simply a matter of laziness. A lot of people avoid registering for sites because, once you've given someone your e-mail address, you never know what they're going to do with it. Yes, yes, plenty of sites advertise their privacy policies in their Terms of Service, swearing up and down that they'll never sell your address or send you spam. But know what? Sometimes people on the Internet lie.)

While laziness is a harsh term, in fairness I can understand how they may feel this way.

I have also seen how some people like to regularly get involved with a number of threads but always post anonymously. And there are some, who are some posters who like to hide from view while directly attacking and insulting.

I do not need to know a persons information, but if there is nothing there, not even a simple username to address, I feel like I am being attacked by a ghost ;-) How can we communicate with nothing?

And Abigail, the moment you exclude one group from another by any means, you have made the grounds for elitism. I know that this word usually has a negative meaning, but I do not meant it negatively.

I mean elitism as in only certain people, in this case registered people, would be allowed to actively post. Now this is not really a bad thing and it can in fact do some of the things you mentioned above. But it still falls under the umbrella of elitism.

So now this board is exclusively for learners?

Actually, you're right, I stand corrected. Of course it's for a much wide demographic than that.

Also, it's not simply a matter of laziness. A lot of people avoid registering for sites because, once you've given someone your e-mail address, you never know what they're going to do with it.

Hence the beauty of free, disposable, single-purpose email accounts. E.g.,

Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtrusló, @hotmail.com, @yahoo.com, etc.

I have a yahoo.com address just for registrations; I only use it when I need to register at a new place and am not sure whether I trust them yet with my correct email info. Works like magic.

Not to belabor this, but for me the bottom line is, right now any random idjit can come in, pour gasoline on a fire with almost complete anonymity, and run merrily along giggling at the havoc he's wrought.

I would suggest that a sensible, and remarkably modest compromise would be to require registration for unmoderated posting and, if anonymous posting be preserved, mark those posts for moderation before posting.

Coamhín seems to be a fair and even-handed mod... but of course it's easy as pie for me to volunteer him for more work like this. ;)

Gach ré mí nó mar sin, braithim, go dtarlaíonn na drochráigeanna ionsaithe.
The onslaughts seem to happen spasmodically.

Is mithid a saothar a thréaslú le reachtairí an tsuímh seo -
- a good time to congratulate the Daltaí moderators on the work they handle here.

Tá duais Ghlór na nGael saothraithe go maith acu. Casadh dom ann iad agus ba dheas iad a fheiceáil ag dreapadh amach ar an ardán le haghaidh tarraingt na ngrianghraf.
They well deserved the Glór na nGael prize a few weeks back.

Is snasta scafánta a dhéanann siad a gcuid oibre anseo nuair a thagann an crú ar an tairne ó thráth go chéile.
They seem to be able to handle the awkward times that crop up here, almost imperceptibly.

A fhad is a choinneoidh siadsan an cloigeann agus sinne a ghabháil as ár gcranna cumhachta in amanna, tiocfaidh gach rud ar ais ina áit féin ceart arís.
They shall save the day if things go a bit wobbly.

Déarfainn go bhfuil tairbhe i saoirse an tsuímh seo thar suíomhanna eile a gcaithfidh tú clárú isteach iontu.
The freedom on this site may be a badly needed open door for learners/relearners to enter.

quote:

A fhad is a choinneoidh siadsan an cloigeann agus sinne a ghabháil as ár gcranna cumhachta in amanna, tiocfaidh gach rud ar ais ina áit féin ceart arís.

Tácaím leis sin, agus le do mholadh, agus le do mholadh!

I like this site, the fact that noone had to register until they are ready made me feel like it was a good place to be, being the first forum I engaged in. I actually don't mind giving out my e-mail address around here because I'm not wary of anyone around the place so I wouldn't mind getting messages from anyone here. There are places that I participate however where I don't my address known. I suppose since some people around may feel that way about this site maybe Abigail's idea is something for the moderators to look into if they so choose. It isn't something I feel that I need but others may appreciate it.

To reitterate, registration should not be required because it is constraining and people should at least be given a chance to talk to people a bit before they register, if for no other reason than to consult them on choosing a suitable name. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht