Más é do thoil é
If it be your will

Nach é an feic é
What a sight he is

Seo é é
Here he comes

I seem to notice pronouns repeated on a regular basis in Irish, and I have yet to come across an explanation why. Above are three examples.

This drives me bonkers. Can somebody explain the grammatical rule(s) being invoked above?

There are 2 uses of the copula:

classification: eg he is A man: is fear é

identification: eg he is THE man: is é an fear é

The 2nd type of copula sentence requires reduplication of third person pronouns.

You seriously need to hang out here more often. Thank you!

quote:

identification: eg he is THE man: is é an fear é

Is maith an míniú é sin. I'll add one bit of further explanation. You will encounter the phrase "is é an fear" without the repeated (resumptive?) pronoun in fronting.

Thug an fear dom é. = The man gave it to me.

To stress that it is the man (and not the woman or the boy, etc.) who gave it to me, you bring "fear" to the front of the sentence:

Is é an fear a thug dom é. = It is the man who gave it to me.

Now, for my bit of speculative explanation. Why do we repeat the pronoun when we want to say "he is the man"? Because if we just said

Is é an fear (...)

then the listener might take this as a fronting and wait (impatiently) for you to finish the sentence. Adding the final "é" puts a quick end to that expectation!

but what about first and second person sentences? would then no repetition give rise to confusion?

quote:

would then no repetition give rise to confusion?

Is maith an cheist í.

Is mé an fear. (Not *is mé an fear mé) = I am the man.

Here there is little likelihood of ambiguity or confusion, since fronted sentences begining with "Is mé, Is tú," etc. are much less common than those fronted with "Is é (an) ...."

They do exist, of course:

Is mé an fear a mharaigh an dragan!

quote:

Is mé an fear. (Not *is mé an fear mé)

I wonder if they wouldn't repeat "mé" ("tú", etc) in Connemara. I think I saw something like that in "Learning Irish"...

quote:

Is mé an fear a mharaigh an dragan!

That is not fronting.
It is the same sentence as "Is mé (mise) an fear"
"An fear" only obtained a further attribute.
(Emphasis is on "an fear a mharaigh an dragan", "mé" is unstressed)
Of course you can put emphasis on mé (and so you'd use mise). But mé or mise is always first in copula sentences, so no fronting is needed.

Fronting of first or second person pronouns only occur in sentences with full verbs.
In fronting I'd expect an emphatic pronoun: "is mise ..." and never "is mé".
And of course I'd expect a direct relative verb form directly after "mise":
Is mise a mharaigh an dragan.
(Emphasis is on "mise").

Lars

quote:

Más é do thoil é

Well, the pronoun isn't really duplicate because both pronouns don't refer to the same noun or person.
The first pronoun belongs closely to "do thoil" and refers to it.
It is there because you cannot put a definite noun phrase directly after the copula (never: "*is do thoil, *más do thoil")
Because "do thoil" is predicate the first pronoun is called "pre-predicate".
The second pronoun is subject. It is that pronoun you translate as "it" in "If it's your will".

Más é do thoil é. = If it is your will.
Compare with:
Más toil é. = If it is a will.

Lars

Emphatic forms are not required (in any person/number) but the sentence tends to carry a different meaning if they're not used.

"Is mise a bhí sásta" - I was happy (i.e. particular emphasis on the subject)
"Is mé a bhí sásta" - I was certainly happy (i.e. a more emphatic pronouncement than "bhí mé sásta", but the emphasis is on the whole sentence really, not on the "mé".)

Somehow by fronting the pronoun in the first one you're really emphasizing the whole sentence, or...? My head hurts.

Anyway, both versions exist and that's the distinction I'd make between them. I don't think it's purely a Connemara thing either (I can hunt up examples from Munster writers, and I daresay Ulster as well.)

Thank you. One never should say never ...

I found a few other examples, e.g.:
Bíodh go gcorraítear an talamh agus a bhfuil ann,
is mé a dhaingnigh a cholúin.
("The earth and all its inhabitants will quake,
but I have firmly set its pillars", psalm 75 / 3)
So it is the fronting here that translates as "firmly", as certainty?

Lars

Well, I'd say "dhaingnigh" translates the "firmly set." (cf. FGB, "Daingnigh sa bhalla é" - fix it firmly in the wall.)

It would be hard to say that this structure equates to any particular word in an English translation. A particular tone of voice or a slight nod of the head is more like it. In writing, though? Insert your choice of sentence adverb, I guess - or translate it straight up, as was done here. It's really not a convenient distinction to make in English; a sentence adverb tends to result in too much emphasis, I think.

A couple more examples off the top of my head:
Tá an chaile siúd i ndon a bhréagadh lena cuid sicíní agus stocaí cniteáilte agus an chrúibín cham. Sí atá deas air, a Mháistir. (Cré na Cille)
Ar a ghabháil 'n a' chuain domh, is mé 'bhí go huaibhreach / Tinn lag buartha i m'intinn (Ulster song)
Is tú a dúirt! - "You've said it!" This is more-or-less interchangeable with "Dúirt tú é", "D'fhéadfá a rá!" or "Is/Nach fíor dhuit é"; the point is not that it's you who said it, but just "ain't that the truth!"

On the other hand:
A Rí mhór na cruinne / Is tú a chruthaigh sinne (and I don't remember the rest, nor where I read it)

Is mé an fear a mharaigh an dragan!

quote:

That is not fronting.

Is fíor duit, ar ndóigh. Níl aon treisiú i gceist san abairt sin. All the better, mar sin.
Tá an míniú a thug mé daoibh ar Is é an fear é slán fós.

Is é an fear a thug dom é. = It is the man who gave it to me.

Couldn't another explanation for the lack of repetition in this case be the presence of another third-person pronoun in clause already, namely a?

No, I think not.

Note this difference:

1) Is é an fear a thug dom é. = It is the man (and not the child, etc.) who gave it to me.

which is fronted from: Thug an fear dom é.

2) Is é an fear é a thug dom é. = He is the man who gave it to me.

Tá súil agam go bhfuil sé seo i gceart agam! Mar sin a thuigimse an dá abairt seo ar aon nós.

In the sentence:
"Is é an fear é a thug dom é."
there is an adjectival relative clause ("clasál coibhneasta aidiachtach" according to Irish grammar books).
This sentence is a normal identification sentence "He's the man".
The relative clause is just an additional attribute ("... who gave it to me") to the predicate "the man".
Because of syntax it is split from its antecedent.
(You prob. wouldn't say "Is é an fear a thug dom é é")

But the sentence:
"Is é an fear a thug dom é." (without é)
is not an identification sentence. It is fronting of "an fear". Normal word order would be "Thug an fear dom é".
The relative clause here isn't adjectival. It is no attribute of any other part of the sentence.
It is a "detached" relative clause ("clasál coibhneasta leithleach").
In fact, the relative clause is formally subject of the copula sentence (and so it takes the place of the subject pronoun é)

The relative particle "a" can't be subject on its own.
Because it isn't a pronoun. It is only a particle.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on April 29, 2008)