The terrible decision to abolish Gaedhealchlódh and use Róman type has the effect that lenited variants of words are not close in the dictionary. Under the new system connected words can be spread out.

Mar atá?

Níl mórán focal sa bhfoclóir dar tús consain shéimhithe, an bhfuil? Agus dá dheireanaí atá an séimhiú sa bhfocal is ea is lú an difear a dhéanann sé sa bhfoclóir.

"Irredentist" eile atá againn anseo, a Aibí. Tá an tAthair Risteard de Hindeberg (aka Richard Henebry) beo fós i gcúinní iargúlta an idirlín.

Well, bheirim should be the entry immediately after beirim, and tú and thú should be filed together, and some commonly lenited forms should go with the unlenited form - tall/thall, beith/bheith. Coimeád and coimhéad (note the difference in the accentuation in the FGB) are actually the same word with an artificial difference - they are only on opposite pages in FGB but should be the same entry.

Yes that's right Dennis, as we all know 99.9% of Irish speakers and enthusiasts are completely satisfied, no, ecstatic with the 'caighdeán oifigiúil' and the incredible effect it's had on the restoration of the language (what is it now? 90%, 95% of the Irish population who are now fluent???) so let's all have a condescending laugh at another old-fashioned, unconforming fool who isn't impressed by the vandalism that was done to the Irish language by a crowd of bureaucrats and 'modernisers' in Dublin. The same generation that destroyed the finest Georgian city in Europe and gave us the glories of Ballymun, also in the name of modernism.



p.s. Isn't an irredentist one who believes certain territories in other states should be part of his own?

There was a poignant message on the GAEILGE-B list a while ago. An Irish native speaker from the Tory Island Gaeltacht had passed way at the age of nearly 100. Although it is frequently stated on Daltaí that native speakers don't care about the CO and the only people making a fuss about it are foreign learners, this man had never accepted the CO, the Roman script or the new spellings. Dennis, such people do exist - don't try to delegitimize them. They have their own story to tell. The man's family were unsure of the old spellings, and asked someone who posted a message on GAEILGE-B to make sure everything on the man's tombstone was written correctly. An irredentist? Maybe? But Irish was his language, and why should he defer to someone in Seattle? It was so poignant to read that the people Dennis say don't exist do exist. I for one was touched by the man's adherence to his inherited culture.

Coinnígí oraibh ag scríobh i mBéarla, lads, just coinnígí oraibh.

I mean, nach bhfeiceann sibh an íoróin ar chor ar bith? Mura a bhfuil sibh sásta bhur racht a ligean sa teanga is cás libh, cad is fiú an searbhas seo? Tá sibh chomh useless le dídí ar thorc. Begrudgers den chineáll is measa atá ionaibh beirt, ag béicíl i mBéarla faoi staid teanga nach n-úsáideann sibh. Pathetic.

1)Here we go again - 'if you can't express your opinion in perfect Irish you've no right to it.....'
Give it a rest.

2)Tosnuigheadh an snáithe seo i mBéarla, dá bharr soin sílim gur cuibhe é d'fhreagairt sa teangain chéadna.

3)An focail Ghaedhilge 'lads' agus 'just' anois?

'Begrudgers'???
What are you on about?

I'm begrudging no-one anything.

Ní dúirt duine ar bith rud ar bith faoi Ghaeilge fhoirfe a bheith ag teastáil. Gaeilge labhartha agus Gaeilge scríofa atá ag teastáil, bíodh botúin iontu nó ná bíodh.

Ní choinneoidh Léinn Cheiltigh an tsaoil an dé sa teanga mura bhfuil cainteoirí aici.

Bímis orthu!

There are some things that I have to say in English. I don't know what a poignant message is in Irish, and one cannot study a language by running before walking. The point I made you failed to address. If I said it in Irish it would be a very cut-down version:

Tamall ó shin do bhí teachtaireact ar an líosta Gaedhealg-B faoi seanduine atá tar éis ag marbhadh agus é ina chómhnaidhe sa GhT Oiléain Toraigh. Nuair a mhairibh sé, do bhí sé céad blian d'aois. Níor ghlac sé riamh leis an gCaighdéan Oifigeamhail, agus do theastaídís óna mhuinntir ár gcabhair inscríbhinn ar a leac uaighe a scríobh i seanchlódh.

I can't put all I wanted to say in Irish, and the fact that the above probably contains numerous errors does not change the fact, Dennis, that you have tried to delegitimize native speakers who saw their language chopped about with by politicians. You cannot actually comment on that issue - it would require an apology if you did. The issue is correct even if I could only write Swahili....

Go raibh maith agat as na samplaí sin, a Sheagháin. Bheadh pointe cuid mhaith níos láidre agat dá mba rud é go raibh ceart dódhiultaithe ag focla gaolta a bheith ina gcomharsana béil dorais sa bhfoclóir. Ní bheidh "falla" agus "balla" ar aonleathanach go deo arís, ná "préata" agus "práta". An cás leat a scaradh? Ar cheart leat an clog a chur siar ionas go mbeidh siad arís ina n-aon fhocal amháin?

Is iomaí argóint is féidir a dhéanamh i bhfabhar an phoinc shéimhithe, ach tá sí seo ar na cinn is laige dar liom.

Oh, here we go again. The same Dennis who was mocking native speakers in 1999 for using their legitimate speech although "beautiful CO" is available - is pontificating again about his own supremacy just because he started studying Irish several years before us all. What was it? You compared CO to Dante's Italian, right? Unbelievable to what length some people would go to justify their own vanity. This is really "irredentist" and frankly speaking - pathetic. It seems that during all those years of relentless boasting and showing off you even did not manage to read "réamhrá" of "Caighdeán oifigiúil" which EXPLICITLY states that CO is not meant to supplant dialectal Irish, that it was addressed to people who did not know any dialect at all, so were too confused which form to follow. All dialectal forms were proclaimed to remain valid and in use.

Now on the subject of your "fabulous knowledge". Dear Dennis, maybe you didn't notice - but there a considerable age difference between you and many contributors here. Thus, I am really puzzled what makes you feel you are so much better after having studied it for decades vs. people who study it for couple years. Usually people don't need to show off to justify their self-esteem. All in due time - and I have no doubt many will exceed your knowledge.

1) Níl aon gá ag cainteoir Gaeltachta leis an gCO a úsaid.
2) Tá an tseanchló in úsáid ar uaigh mo sheanathair féin - a bhásaigh i 1981.
3) Tá bheirim i ndiaidh beir i bhfoclóir Dinneen toisc gur lean sé nósmhaireacht eile. Gheobhaidh tú foirmeacha séimhithe de beir faoin gceannteideal sin san GFGB.


Níl baint ag an tseanchló leis an tsean litriú.
Agus níl cosc ar ceachtar acu, pé scéal é.

Meabhraíonn an scéal seo dom an scéal faoi leasú na Gearmáinise ag tús an 20ú aois.

Tür a scríobhtar anois in áit Thür - Tor in áit Thor 7 rl - ach níor cheadaigh an tImpire go mbainfí an "h" as Thron...

Ní mar a chéile an t-athrú leitrithe i nGearmáinis agus caighdeán oifigiúil i n-aon chor. Níor athraíodh ach leitreacha beaga i nGearmáinis, ní athraigh duine éigin aon fhocal amháin féin mar a dheineadh é i nGaelainn dhílis!!!

Ní fhaca mé gur thrácht Dennis s'againne ar a aois, ar fhad a staidéir nó ar an gCO féin. An cló Gaelach a bhí faoi chaibidil againn go bhfios dom.

Caithfidh nach bhfuil na beacáin chearta agam á gcaitheamh.

Well, I think I could have done with an "a bhí" instead of "atá", and theastaíodh instead of theastaídís and bliadhan instead of blian and probably a few other things.

But the point is, a Dhonnchadh, that you could only help me by helping me to put a conservative bent on any Irish I learn. If you are prepared to help in that direction, then great.

This forum shouldn't just be about low-level practice, where non-native speakers who themselves have trouble with idiom (may I refer you to your orange-juice thread) can lord it over people practising sentences. It can also be about informative discussion - the picking of brains. But when I asked for help on 2nd conjugation verbs, your contribution to the thread was just some sarcastic remark. I have never seen you actually give much information away on this board.

Róman,
scéal grinn faoin Impire a bhí ann, sin uile.

Cad deirtear i Músgraí? Tóg rudaí níos boige?

(Dála an scéil níl sé ró fhada ó bhí Teutsch ar an dteanga a bhfuil Deutsch uirthi anois....)

Seaghán,

with whom will you converse in this conservative Irish?
What will you read?

/q{Níl baint ag an tseanchló leis an tsean litriú.}

Is é an dearcadh céadna do bhí i n-aghaidh a gcleachttha mar bhíodar 'seanaimseardha'. Sin an bhaint atá eatorthu.

Seans gur fíor sin. Ach de réir mo thuiscint, costas (an gá le clófhoirne ar léith) ba siocair bháis don tseanchló.

Anois agus gan luaidhe i gceist, i ré seo na ríomhairí, tá an tseanchló ag filleadh.

Seans gur fíor sin. Ach de réir mo thuiscint, costas (an gá le clófhoirne ar léith) ba siocair bháis don tseanchló.

Anois agus gan luaidhe i gceist, i ré seo na ríomhairí, tá an tseanchló ag filleadh.

(Bheadh an ponc curtha isteach agam thuas, ach tá mo thiománaí méarchláir briste, agus fonn orm dul a luí anois.

To return to the original question:

quote:

The terrible decision to abolish Gaedhealchlódh and use Róman type

The Gaeilic script is certainly very decorative, but didn't you overlook easier the tiny dots above the lenited letters than outstanding "h"s?
In Hebrew it is sometimes annoying, if there is bad, small printing, to decipher the niqqud (all those dots), if they are like fly-blow (and I don't need spectacles)


Did anyone read the article by Mathew Stauton, who is very critical about the historic value of Gaedhealchlódh?:
http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/lisa/publications/008/v3_2005-1_085staunton.pdf


PS. I speak the German words "Tür" and "Tor" with a puff of air after the "t" [tʰür, tʰor], so I would not feel it unnatural to write them again all with "th".

Ingeborg, often the presence or absence of lenition is a dialectal variation anyway, eg Dia duit vs. Dia dhuit. But as a matter of fact the preponderance of h's in modern Irish spelling has become ridiculous, and could be a major feature in putting people off Irish. There are words with 3 or more h's in. Try: comhfhoghrach. A 9 letter word has become a 13 letter word in this case, and although the pronunciatio of digraphs is fairly regular it looks to the learner like nonsense, which it is. M-H-F-H- this is an absurd combination. What is the record for the maximum number of h's in an Irish word? I am not sure of the answer. Any advances on 4? It has made spelling harder. I bet some of these h's are left out frequently.

I have always found seancló printing easier than romanized, and when I introduce people to Irish phonetics or basic phrases - despite initial hedging at the "foreign-ness" of the font - all other native english speakers I've done that with have as well.

How many was that? I really went on a crusade as an undergrad, printing packets and running informal "ranganna"...I stopped counting at 100 individuals. Not unreasonable if I had another 40 beyond that.

But alas, I fear seancló is gone from the mainstream for good...

My honest solution is, with the ease of unicode on computers, to use the roman font with the dot instead of the h...although that isn't going to happen in the mainstream, either.

Just my $.02, for what it's worth...which admittedly isn't much...

"Tá sibh chomh useless le dídí ar thorc."

he he!

quote:

often the presence or absence of lenition is a dialectal variation anyway

You propose: Ignore the points and lenite according to the rules of your dialect anyway? I thought the biggest diversity is the dative after articles where the alternative is not "no lenition" but "eclipsis":
Ulster/Munster "ar an bhord" versus Connacht "ar an mbord". I thought in 90% of the times the dialects were with one accord about lenition.

quote:

seancló

Is this one of your quoted dialectal variations. I thought "sean" as a prefix lenites, so " sean" + "cló" = "seanchló" like "seanbháid" "old boat" (with the eternal exception of d,t after n)

quote:

to use the roman font with the dot

Was it ever done? I always read the "golden" rule: Gaelic script has dots, romanisation "h"s.

quote:

But as a matter of fact the preponderance of h's in modern Irish spelling has become ridiculous

Yes, indeed, coṁḟoġraċ looks much cleaner and easier than comhfhoghrach and accelerate that you recognise the letter patterns, but I think "bloody" foreigners, who don't like the difficult sounds of traditional Irish would be further invited to say: Why bother with broad ṁs, ġs and ċs, let's simply pronounce [komfəgrək].

I think, if you are typing, diacritics are always a nuisance (you have often heard people cry on this board: "where are the fadas!",and letters like á, é are international), dotted consonants I know only in Polish (but they manage). So in printing books and newspapers it would be easier than in your personal correspondance.

Like in Esperanto, where you print f.e. ŝi ĵetiĝis [ʃi ʒe'ti:ʤis] (she threw herself) many people tend to type "shi jhetighis" or even more terrible "sxi jxetigxis".

So I ask you first: which is better?: ŝi ĵetiĝis or sxi jxetigxis
And secondly: which is better?: coṁḟoġraċ or comhfhoghrach

Yes, I think you are right. But it is a minority view, isn't it?

quote:

despite initial hedging at the "foreign-ness" of the font - all other native english speakers I've done that with have as well.

The old German fraktur I can read fluently, but the richly ornamented letters slow down the reader a bit (especially the capital letters of whom we have many in every sentence in German). Maybe Gaelic script is a bit less heavy.

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 14, 2008)

quote:

this man had never accepted the CO, the Roman script or the new spellings

This man reminds me of Otto von Bismark. Otto von Bismarck was a keen supporter of German typefaces, ie. fraktur. He refused gifted German books in Antiqua typefaces and returned them to sender with the statement: Deutsche Bücher in lateinischen Buchstaben lese ich nicht! (I don't read German books in Latin script!).

Die Geschichte gefaellt mir. Bismarck abú!


Fuer beispiele von Gaelchló, siehe

http://www.scribhinn.org/

und

http://www.gaelchlo.org

insbesondere

http://www.scribhinn.org/gailear.html

Tá mise agus gach Gaeil eile a bhfuil aithne agam orthu i saol na linne seo ar son an caighdeán oifigiúil.

Chomh maith leis sin, silim gur saothar uasal an lárchanúint.

Fainic, beidh na ceithearnaigh canúna sa tóir ort anois....

The man from Tory Island is an interesting example...

His ability to reject the CO and continue a workable life with Irish suggest many possibilities to me...

1) It is a lie, but since no evidence to suggest this I see no reason to go down that road.

2) He relied on his spoken Irish which would have freed him from any written burden the CO would have caused him. This is plausible.

3) He was able to write CO and dialectal spellings but preffered to use his dialectal spellings. Most likely.

4) There is also the possibility that Tory Island being such an isolated area did not conform straight to the CO which aso gave him a little more time.

Since I can only go on what was said about him before there are only so many things I can figure from. If the man was at least 100 or close to 100, he would have to have died before 1950 to not know about the CO, however, since he rejected it that means he had to have had some contact with it meaning that he died more recently. By the mid 1950's Ireland was in the phasing out process of the older spelling systems and using the CO more...which means that while they were starting to use the CO, they were also still printing in the dialectal differences for those who needed help adjusting. That could include this gentleman.

As for the dots above the letters...that is, and has always been a personal preference. Sometimes it was a dot, sometimes an acute accent just like with the vowels, and there are even some text in the libraries where they used circumflexes. To a primarily English speaking Ireland, one of the major concerns of the early revival movements was that the dots above the letters may seem alien to a people who were not used to seeing the Latin script used in this manner. Granted this is not the only reason, but it was discussed by Ó Droighneáin and Rannóg an Aistriúcháin in the 1950's.

I have not dug into the older texts for a long time...does anyone know the earliest example of an "h" being used? I what to say there was an example of it pre-dating the CO? But I am not certain if I am remembering correctly?


(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 14, 2008)

apparently before the dot was uniformly used on all dotted consonants, a mixture of dots, superscript Hs and regular Hs were used. This would have been the original latin-script (post-ogham) writing system.

I have not seen MSS that do this, I merely remember them being referred to in older threads on this board. Perhaps those who originally mentioned it might speak to this.

quote:

The old German fraktur I can read fluently, but the richly ornamented letters slow down the reader a bit (especially the capital letters of whom we have many in every sentence in German). Maybe Gaelic script is a bit less heavy.

It's the same for me reading cló Gaelach. It slows me down. When reading normally, we process the images of word or even word-groups, not individual letters. When the gestalt of a word changes due to script, that slows anyone down who does not regularly read in it. And there are damn few things I have any reason to read in cló Gaelach... agus tá siad uilig ar pháipéar atá buí agus briosc anois.

quote:

apparently before the dot was uniformly used on all dotted consonants, a mixture of dots, superscript Hs and regular Hs were used. This would have been the original latin-script (post-ogham) writing system.

Is fíor duit. In the great manuscripts (Lebor na hUidre ~ Leabhar na hUidhre, etc.) only 'f' and 's' were lenited with a superscript dot. The lenited letters 'th, ch, ph' were written out as such or the 'h' was written as a small superscript. The lenition of 'd, g, b' was simply not shown in writing in Old Irish.

quote:

The Gaeilic script is certainly very decorative,

I don't see the Gaelic script as simply a decorative form of writing. It is the result of our own ancient, distinctive literary tradition, the 3rd oldest in Europe and it's abandonment was an act of philistinism and cowardice.
I found this interesting from "Irish Illuminated Manucsripts" by James Johnson Sweeney: ""The significance of the Irish script as a cultural symptom", Professor Ludwig Bieler writes in Ireland, Harbinger of the Middle Ages, "emerges most clearly when its genesis is compared with that of other 'national scripts' of the early Middle Ages. All the others - the Visigothic script in Spain, the Beneventan script in southern Italy, the local types of the Merovingian kingdom, the Rhaetian and Alemmanic scripts of Chur and St. Gall, and the less characteristic scripts of northern Italy and western Germany - can be understood as attempts at normalizing the degenerative cursive script of late antiquity in the hope of thus producing a serviceable book-hand. The Irish script, it seems, was a deliberate creation out of elements of several scripts inherited from antiquity which the earliest missionaries had brought with them.""

quote:

but didn't you overlook easier the tiny dots above the lenited letters than outstanding "h"s?

This is exactly what I feared when I started familiarising myself with the script but now I have no difficulty with unconsciously distinguishing lenited from non-lenited consonants as I read.

quote:

Was it ever done? I always read the "golden" rule: Gaelic script has dots, romanisation "h"s.

I have a copy of "O'Gallagher's Sermons" edited by Ulick Bourke which uses Roman type with the dots. The letter 'i' wasn't dotted, presumably to help the dotted consonants to stand out. A dot was also used over a vowel instead of a 'h' at the start of a word. I think it's a better system than the one currently used but has its own problems, especially fitting the dots over 't' and 'f'.

quote:

but I think "bloody" foreigners, who don't like the difficult sounds of traditional Irish would be further invited to say: Why bother with broad ṁs, ġs and ċs, let's simply pronounce [komfəgrək].

Well those foreigners would simply be wrong as well as being stupid. This as a reason to prefer 'h's to dots makes little sense to me.

The Greeks and Israelis get along just fine with their own distinct alphabets. I don't see why we Irish couldn't get by just as well with our variety of the most widely used alphabet.

quote:

The Greeks and Israelis get along just fine with their own distinct alphabets.

Más mian leat a bheith chomh héagsúil agus is féidir leis an mBéarla, ná stad leis an gcló Gaelach. Tabhair ar ais na nodanna go léir freisin. Bhí a lán acu in úsáid fós sna céad leabhair clóite.

http://quidnunc.net/~garyi/noda/notae.html

Is mise a chuir an leathanach thuas le chéile, dála an scéil, ó shamplaí ó "Lebar na Núagchongbála". Ní fuath liom na rudaí ársa seo... ina n-áit féin.

"...I think it's a better system than the one currently used but has its own problems, especially fitting the dots over 't' and 'f'..."

Remember that is is difficult to write a dot over the modern "t" and "f". In the past they were written differently, and didn't have this problem so much.