OK, I'm struggling with this:

As ceacht 27 Buntús Cainte:

"d'éist an múinteoir le" = "the teacher heard"

ach

"d'éist an múinteoir leis na ceachtanna"

Why use leis? Is leis a prepositional pronoun in this instance (le + é) or is it something else?

Mah brane is hearing this as "the teacher listened to it the lessons." No makee sense! What am I not understanding here?

Chuala mé na ceachtanna. I heard the lessons.

D'éist mé leis na ceachtanna. I listened to the lessons.

liom
leat
leis
lei
linn
libh
leo

with me, u, him, her etc..


d'éist an múinteoir liom - the teacher listened to me.
d'éist an múinteoir le Des - the teacher listened to des
d'éist an múinteoir leis an rang - the teacher listened to the class

Thank you both! But why isn't it:

d'éist an múinteoir leo na ceachtanna?

It's plural...

???

Or better yet! Why isn't it:

d'éist an múinteoir le na ceachtanna?

Sorry to be a question-box but this stuff totally stumps me as I haven't run across it yet in the grammars...

le becomes leis when paired with the definite article.

The Irish definite article historically began with s. This was generally lost, but relics remains after certain prepositions. Le is one, i is another, e.g. sa tigh "in the house" (a reduction of earlier insan tigh), (in)sna tithe "in the houses".

Munster Irish also has the plural forms agesna, desna, dosna, fésna, and ósna corresponding respectively to standard ag na, de na, do na, faoi na, and ó na.

le becomes leis when paired with the definite article.

A straightforward answer. Hallelujah!

Thank you, Antaine.

D'éist an múinteoir leo na ceachtanna would mean" the teacher listened to them the lessons"...

A Domhnaill,

Not only "le", but also:

i - insan (=sa), insna (=sna)
le - leis an, leis na
a' - as an, as na

and in Munster all other prepositions ending with a vowel in plural:

de - desna
do - dosna
ó - ósna
ag (=aige) - aigesna
fé - fésna

Im not sure if its because of hearing Irish at school or maybe listening to it on CDs etc but I find that the one that sounds right makes the most sense.
leis na ceachtana is more easy on the ear than leo na ceachtana.
leis na seems to have more flow to it??

Sin é buachaill rua!
If in doubt do what sounds right...

If in doubt do what sounds right...

Well, for you folks in Ireland who are surrounded by this to a degree, that might work; but pity us poor schlubs who have no clue what sounds right! ;)

D'éist an múinteoir leo na ceachtanna would mean" the teacher listened to them the lessons"...

Precisely. I was operating under the apparently mistaken assumption that "leis" meant "le+é".

Thank you all.

D'éist an múinteoir leis na ceachtannaíbh

schlubs!? Wtf is a schlub! You americans crack me up!

Cén fáth go gcuireann tú "bh" ag an deireadh ansin Seaghán?

Le is followed by the dative.

I think you find the Conemarians say leis na ceachtannaíbh - or at least according to Ó Siadhail

I think schlub is a borrow from Yiddish into American english (?)...it's pronounced like sshLUB...close to "slob" with an sh.

You know, for all of the debate about english words making their way into Irish and dancas' over-inflation of the direct influence of Irish on American english (although, I do believe the influence is greater than is traditionally conceeded), American english has borrowed loads of interesting and colorful stuff from its biggest immigrant groups.

Conemarians?! Schlubs!? I think yiz have gone mad!

Ó mo thaithí féin, agus is taithí nach beag é, leis na conemarians ní úsáidtear ceachtannaíbh.. nó aon rud dá leithéid.

I think schlub is a borrow from Yiddish into American english (?)...it's pronounced like sshLUB...close to "slob" with an sh.

Tá an ceart agat. The ultimate origin is probably Polish żłób (in modern Polish pronounced "zhwoop") "blockhead".

Reading humourous stories written in Hiberno-English actually reminds me a lot of similar works by Yiddish-American humourists. Eye-dialect, sentence calques, colourful curses--it's all there. Even a lot of the specific borrowings are parallel--what else is a zhlub, after all, than a stróinse?

quote:

Im not sure if its because of hearing Irish at school or maybe listening to it on CDs etc but I find that the one that sounds right makes the most sense.
leis na ceachtana is more easy on the ear than leo na ceachtana.
leis na seems to have more flow to it??

Well, what sounds "natural" or "flowing" depends on the person. For you "leis na" sounds natural because you heard it, but actually, it isn't more natural than "le na" for example.

By the way, some people do say "le na" instead of "leis na" in Gweedore... I'm sure that for them "le na" sounds more natural, you see. You can't have objective opinions about such stuff in languages. Just one example: in languages such as Tahitian or Finnish, speakers can't pronounce two consonants at the beginning of a word. For example "France" is "Ranska" in Finnish, because people can't pronounce "fr-". So, what is natural to them is not for us and vice-versa.

Oh, I just thought of another Munster form with s: roimis. This is found not just before articles, though, and may simply represent a generalisation of the third-person masculine personal form.

Domhnall, you misunderstand me. The Conemarians use the old dative plural ceachtannaíbh as their nom/dat now. Ceachtannaíbh was always pronounced ceachtannaí there when there was the Nom/Dat distinction there, so the pronunciation ceachtannaí is actually the way they are saying ceachtannaíbh, and is not just an especially long way of saying ceachtanna. Ó Siadhail in his book tries to kid people that the ending -anna is pronounced -annaí. He does not explain that where the CO has -anna, Cois Fhairrge has -annaíbh.

quote:

The Conemarians use the old dative plural ceachtannaíbh as their nom/dat now.

Is suimiúil an teoiric í sin. Ach is baolach nach bhfuil aon bhunús léi. Tá scéal amháin taobh thiar den fhoirceann -anna, mar atá an sean-ghinideach ar -ann (díle ~ díleann, ainm ~ anmann, etc.). Agus tá scéal eile taobh thiar den fhoirceann -aí, agus seo agat é ó bhéal Nicholas Williams in Stair na Gaeilge (V.3.5):

Is é an ceann deireanach [-(a)í] an ceann is fairsinge. Mar -(e)adha is minice a litrítear é sna téacsanna, rud a thabharfadh le tuiscint gurb é áinsíoch thamhain déadacha na Sean-Ghaeilge ar nós fileda, míleda, ba bhun leis go stairiúil. Is dócha gur chuir iolraí na n-ainmfhocal dar chríoch -(e)ach san ainmneach uatha le líon na n-iolraí ar -(a)í freisin, mar is amhail -(a)í a deirtí (a)igh sa chuid is mó de Leath Coinn. Ní dócha go bhfuil mórán baint ag an bhfoirceann (a)ibh féin le (a)í sa chuid is mó den tír, áfach. Is léir gur mar -(a)iv a d'fhuaimnítí -(a)ibh gach áit ó Cho. Chorcaí go Co. na Mí agus oileán Reachlainne.

Is fiú a thabhairt faoi deara gur mar (a)iv a deirtear fós é i gConamara:

Ní beo d'fhoirm ar leith den tabharthach san uimhir iolra, cé go bhfuil lorg an tseandeiridh -ibh le fáil i gcorrchás thall agus abhus, m.sh. an leagan gairmeach a fhearaibh agus i roinnt foirmeacha i nGaeilge oirthear na Gaillimhe mar a n-úsáidtear mar bhuniolra é, m.sh. meachaibh/beachaibh, sceanaibh, úllaibh gleanntaibh. (ibid. VII.3.6)

Agus last but not least, an méid seo ó Ruairí Ó hUiginn (ibid. VII.3.26):

Foircinn shrónacha. -anna(í) an bhunfhoirm anseo agus tá sé bisiúil go maith ar fud na mball i nGaeilge Chonnacht. Ó tuiseal áinsíoch iolra de na tamhain shrónacha a thagann sé. m.sh. caint ~ cainteanna(í), cíos ~ cíosanna(í) srl.

Dála an scéil, cén sórt alien race iad na Conemarians? Ó réaltra i bhfad i gcéin darb ainm Conemaria a tháinig siad, gan dabht.

p.s. For those who don't read Irish, the point of the last message with all the quotations in blue was to tell Seaghán that he is mistaken.

Dennis, you may be right. The Irish of Cois Fhairrge by de Bhaldraithe indicates that the -bh dative plural ending is not normally pronounced, and gives an example of dá ríribh (from iar bhfíribh), but then give the vocative plural "a fhearaibh" as an "exception" where the -bh is pronounced. By the way, the use of fearaibh in the vocative is further evidence of the spread of dative forms. de Bhaldraithe says the long endings in -aí are by compounding endings, but you will notice the pronunciation is then aligned with the dative plural. But I am sure you are right it was not as simple as I said...

quote:

I think schlub is a borrow from Yiddish into American english.

Yes, the Yiddish word is זשלאָב [ʒlob], which means yokel, hick, boor (that means a deriding word for uncultivated rustics), not to confuse with the devoiced שלוב [ʃlub], which means "marriage of a non-Jew", derived also from the Slavic languages.

I suppose strongly that Domhnall Liaim Liaim is right about his derivation from Polish żłób [ʒwup], which means originally "haybox", but figuaratively "great lump, rogue".

quote:

dá ríribh (from iar bhfíribh)

Níl an tsanasaíocht cinnte. Tá dhá mhíniú eile in LEIA, mar atá:

a) ó "dar f(h)írbh" (cf. "dar Dia", "dar an leabhar", etc.)

b) ó "do + a (poss.) f(h)íribh"

fíre = fírinne

Dennis, I got the etymology from p904 of Dinneen's dictionary, but I take the point the etymology is not nown for sure.

Tá "жлоб" na Rúisise ann chomh maith - duine a mbeadh crás an chroí aige rud ar bith a cheannacht dhó féin nó duine eile.

quote:

Dála an scéil, cén sórt alien race iad na Conemarians? Ó réaltra i bhfad i gcéin darb ainm Conemaria a tháinig siad, gan dabht.

Agus díograiseóirí Ioslamacha iad de réir cosúlacht, ó bhéal fear eolach eile…

quote:

duine a mbeadh crás an chroí aige

Tá cuma bhlasta ar "crás an chroí" ach ní thuigim é! Míniú, led thoil, a Pheter.

Tá “sprionlaitheacht” i gceist leis an bhfocal seo, sprionlaitheacht an chroí. Tá an focal seo in FFG agus bhí sé ag Ó hÉithir. Úsáidtear leis an gcopail i dteannta le “ar” nó “ag” é freisin, ach is fiú é a bhreathnú suas mar níl mé le trust uaireanta.

Theip orm "crás" a fháil in FGB agus ní bhfuair mé ar an idirlíon é ach oiread. Níl FFG agam. Tá úrscéal amháin le Breandán Ó hEithir, Lig Sinn i gCathú, agam ach is fada ó léigh mé é.

quote:

is fiú é a bhreathnú suas mar níl mé le trust uaireanta.

"Breathnú suas" ?!? Ay ay ay, tá an iomarca ama caite agat i measc na gConemarians.

Dennis,

Bhí mé féin agus an Ghaeilge ag dul amú ar a chéile. Bhreathnaigh mé “crás” in FFG agus – mo náire – thuig go raibh mé ag déanamh na mbréag:

crás croí (m) sprionlaitheacht. Bhí crás croí air scaradh leis. Ní ligfeadh an crás croí dhó cupán tae a ól [mar go mbeadh air íoc as]

Níor thóig sé i bhfad orm an frása as Ná Lig Sinn i gCathú a aimsiú:

Ba chrás croí do na custaiméirí bheith ag fágáil an tí in am dúnta agus fios acu go raibh an Sasanach beag dea-chainteach ag fanacht ina ndiaidh.

Tá mo choinsias ag cur isteach go mór orm de bharr na leathchuma a rinne mé den chor cainte seo...

quote:

Ba chrás croí do na custaiméirí bheith ag fágáil an tí in am dúnta agus fios acu go raibh an Sasanach beag dea-chainteach ag fanacht ina ndiaidh.

Go raibh maith agat as an abairt sin a aimsiú!

Tá a fhios agat, ar ndóigh, go bhuil an leagan cainte "crá croí" ann. An féidir gur leagan de sin atá againn anseo? Ní "sprionlaitheacht" atá i gceist san abairt thuas ach rud éigin níos cosúla le "doicheall" nó "resentment".