Anyway, after the last thread, I want to add some fun into the mix.

So many here seem to profess a belief that the 'Stone' will be some sort of savior of Irish; others just say it is darn expensive .

I'd like to see...and set a challenge in the meantime...

I've been trying to figure out what are the most important elements in communication, cross linguistically, and I have come up with a few ideas in the process which will become clearer over time.

Anyway, I'd like to lay down a challenge to the Rosetta users -a 7 week period up to the 1st of June (a Sunday) in which we invest our time in our respective methods, and at that point, we agree to make most of our communication solely in Irish, say 6 or 7 out of 10 posts for the whole month of June...dare you try?

I will be putting my methods on a blog (already started) and Rosetta people can simply make a synopsis of where they are and its contents, week by week, for example. That way we can see how well the different ways work (if at all!) and provide some progressive element to our learning.

This thread can be where we hammer out the details and throw about ideas, and if people are interested we can decide to start it on Sunday for real.

Please undersign if interested:

Bearn

Bearn,

I don't know about savior of Irish, but RS is one of the better courses out there. It has a lot of things going for it that other courses have lacked in the past.

user friendly interface
immersion versus translation
image imprinting recognition
step graded progress system
reading, writing, speaking, listening exercises

And in my personal opinion the best thing about it is that every single word is spoken. All courses with audio support have failed in my opinion because they always leave a learner with the "I can say this, but I can't say that attitude."

I really think that at the end of RS, a person is not going to have that problem.

Lena rá ar chaoi eile, beidh Béarla ag úsáid, mar is grách...

Just remember that the vocabulary in RS is introductory, not comprehensive.

It's strength lies in the method used to get the student to remember what's taught and make the associations in Irish, not remembering what common Irish words mean in english. The reason most language methods fail in isolation (no classes, no immersion) is that the student is allowed to process the target language through their native language. That only gets them so far, but then they hit a brick wall. They never make the transition to processing the target language IN the target language.

The value I see in RS is to get rank beginners without access to true immersion to cover the typical beginner vocabulary in a shorter period of time with better mental associations than other traditional methods. If you are determined to foil it and process the pictures into english first, and then into Irish there is nothing stopping you, but the method is designed to better facilitate direct-to-Irish association better than any other method I've come across for any language.

RS prepares them for beginning conversations well and quickly...I'm not so sure your "test" is geared for those benefits.

What would be a better exemplification of those benefits would be to take multiple beginners with little or no previous study, and compare one student on RS to students each doing chapters 1-12 of the other book methods of your choice (Progress, Teach Yourself Irish, Now You're Talking, etc...even Pimsleur, if you like). Given no other support, who is better equipped to hold a conversation at the end?

Therein lies its benefit. It offers some of the mental benefits of true immersion where other methods seemingly can't.

I understand that you haven't had experience with RS methods, so I am not saying you're doing it on purpose, but your assessment tests the wrong things and sets the method up to fail.

I agree with Antaine.

Your proposal would not exactly be testing the RS program's ability to teach, but rather the individual and their ability to learn which would most likely give skewed or even false data unless under very controlled conditions.

The trick would be finding a decent control for such an experiment. My first thought would be people with no exposure to Irish. But I am not certain such people would be a good control. While they seem ideal, we have proven with examinations such as the DLAB (Defense Language Aptitude Battery) of which I have not only taken several times, but am a regular examination administrator...that not every blank slate is a good control. In fact, it is more likely they will they backfire on you.

For those that are unfamiliar with the DLAB, it is an examination currently being used that can accurately predict a person's ability to learn a foreign language and to what fluency level a person will develop within a given language.

My next thought would be to use a person who is going to receive a traditional education in Irish other than the marketed products being tested. The only people that I think would fit into this category are current Irish students of an equal level. (years 3-8 maybe?)


(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 08, 2008)

I think that's too far advanced for RS. Not that someone of that level wouldn't be able to learn things from it or reinforce good knowledge (I am, after 10 years), but it is geared for the beginner. I agree that a little knowledge of basic grammatical concepts would be helpful, but someone with a very small vocabulary. Perhaps someone who went through one of Daltaí's 8-week courses (usually covers chapters 1-8 of buntús with a little grammar discussion).

I truly feel that would be the most appropriate time to introduce RS and allow for the greatest difference in knowledge before the program vs knowledge afterward.

It might be possible to create random questions to help those who choose to use RS.

In the first lesson, there are 35 separate units that do nothing but drill these words into your head. Within the lesson a person who is able to retain at least 75% of the material, which trust me, isn't that hard to do with this course...they will have taken a very good step into Irish.

In the first lesson you are given the following vocabulary: singular and plural nouns are shown with the article, verbs are shown only with the "ag + verb" at this stage with the exception of "Tá" which starts all most of the material for this lesson, and a fair confidence in how to pronounce these words and sentences because of the repetitions required which the main goal of the first few lesson is to get a person exposed to the language and comfortable with hearing and speaking the language.

buachaill
cailín
bí (tá)
ól
ith (ag ithe)
fear
bean
rith
léigh (ag léamh)
sé
sí
córcaráil (ag córcaireacht)
snámh (ag snámh)
scríobh (ag scríobh)

Now this may not seem like much, but it gets progressively harder with each following lesson. They don't slam you with massive word lists, but they do introduce about 6-10 words per lesson. While continually reviewing vocabulary from past lessons. That adds up.

At the end of the lesson...

I think it is fair to be able to ask a person the following questions:

how do you say...(any of the nouns singular/plural)
how do you say...(The noun is verb)
how do you say...(The pronoun is verb.)

However certain problems will arise here. One you cannot hear the person "say." They could easily write it down, but unless you have the ability to see through cyberspace, you have no way of knowing if they are cheating in some fashion. And you are only going to get the following types of answers:

an buachaill
na cailíní
Tá na mná ag ithe.
Tá siad ag rith.

This is where the lesson places a student.

But what will surprise you is that if you could hear them, they would be able to give you an confident and very fair pronunciation without hesitation. And for just one lesson I think that's a pretty good start.

Their pronunciation is tested by voice recognition against the native speakers' patterns and the program will not let them progress until their pronounciation of the given word (or in some lessons, syllable) is acceptable. This is determined in part by the difficulty level set in the preferences. The implication is that if they passed the lesson, they must have been able to make the sounds.

I was actually laying down a challenge to the regulars in the hope of generating a little competition for learning...