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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (March- April) » Archive through April 15, 2008 » Syncopating verbs, 2nd conjugation etc « Previous Next »

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 02:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am studying Munster Irish and having trouble with some odd verbs apparently 2nd conjugation that either should or should not have long endings. This is my understanding so far:

1. 1st conjugation. Imperative is the stem, future is with f: glanaim, glan, glanfad.

2. 2nd conjugation. Imperative in -igh, future with ó: ceannuighim, ceannuigh, ceannóchad, giving ceannaím, ceannaigh and ceannód in the modern spelling.

So far, so good.

3. Normal syncopating verbs. Let's take codlaim. The imperative is without syncope, but future still with ó: codlaim, codail, codlód. **Most of these verbs seem to have been given long endings, eg codlaím, in the Standard Irish, probably to account for the ó future, but many of them are found in Munster literature, eg Peadar Ua Laoghaire with short endings, eg labhraim.** As far as I see, the short ending is still a viable Munster form. Query: is a short ending viable in every case?

4. Syncopating verbs with -bh-. Let's take marbhaim/marbhuighim, which became maraím in the CO. **Unlike category 3, these are in Peadar Ua Laoghaire with long endings** Strictly speaking, the imperative is arrived at just by removing syncope: marbhaim/marbhuighim, maraibh, maróbhad/marbhóchad. **However, CO, by standardizing on the long ending, as maraím, ends up with an imperative in -gh and not -bh, maraigh, aligning the verb fully with #2 above.** Query: does anyone in Munster still use marbhaim with a short ending? It would seem confused to use the long ending in the present, but then to revert to the -bh imperative. The main entry in Dinneen's is for marbhaim rather than marbhuighim.

5. Verbs with verbal nouns in -amh. Let's take seasaim/seasuighim. For some reason, which I cannot fully understand, the imperative is seasaimh in the deep Cork Irish. I know in the CO, the 3 parts are seasaim, seas and seasfaidh mé, so this must be a 1st conjugation verb (unless the ending is extended): seasaim, seasaimh, seasfad. However, I think this verb has developed with -imh in the imperative and preterite in some kind of analogy with the -bh of maraibh above. I am very unclear on whether this verb is always found with a short ending, as seasuighim is the main entry in Dinneen's, and I haven't come across it in Peadar Ua Laoghaire yet.

6. My most difficult category are long ending verbs that do not fit into any of the above category, my example of which is foghlamaím (foghlamuighim), which apparently should have a broad m in the middle in Cork. Actually the main entry in Dinneen's is for a short ending, foghlamaim, and my very old edition of the Christian Brothers' Grammar shows this to be a 1st conjugation verb. Gasp! But I have never found any evidence of an f future with this verb. All I can find is foghlamód. Does foghlamaim with a short ending still exist nowadays? I am wondering whether the correct interpretation is that, although this is not a syncopating verb [The vowel between the l and the m seems always pronounced, so I cannot see it as a syncopating verb], it has a parallel with the syncopating verbs in that the present has a broad stem, but the imperative has a slender ending. Just as the l in codlaim is broad, but the l in codail is slender, foghlamaim/foghlamaím becomes foghlaim. Maybe the m/m' contrast has pushed it over into the 2nd conjugation, giving foghlamaím, foghlaim, foghlamód as the forms??

And yet, if codlaim is held to be a short ending, why have foghlamaím with a long'un? This has implications throughout the paradigm. I studied: would that be d'fhoghlamas? or d'fhoghlamaíos? They studied? d'fhoghlamadar or d'fhoghlamaíodar? He studies? foghlamann sé or foghlamaíonn sé?

As you can see, I am in a muddle, and of course the muddle is created by trying to learn Cork Irish rather than the CO, and maybe the reality is confused too. Can someone comment on categories 3 through to 6? Would it be right to give categories 3 through 6 all long endings, or all short endings? Thank you.

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 03:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can anyone give me a good explanation of these verbs? Does anyone know why foghlamaím has a long ending without being a syncopating verb?

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3620
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 06:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Toil Dé?

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an seanchas is fearr."




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