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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 403 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 10:48 pm: |
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As Buntús Cainte: Ní fhaca mé ach Níor thug mé How do you decide whether to use ní or níor? |
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 404 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 11:01 pm: |
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Okay, the Internet claims to know. Is it simply a question of a flat-out exception for six verbs? Fuair mé Ní bhfuair mé Chonaic mé Ní fhaca mé Chuaigh mé Ní dheachaigh mé Rinne mé Ní dhearna mé Dúirt mé Ní dúirt mé Bhí mé Ní raibh mé |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 478 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 11:08 pm: |
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If you have irregular verbs, rules are more complex, either different roots per tense, or different interrogative particles or suspension of lenition le díol
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 479 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 11:11 pm: |
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Also deponent forms of verbs le díol
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 02:49 am: |
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A Dhomhnaill, your list seems right for Standard Irish. There were more "wrinkles" in the past, eg rug, ní rug, thug, ní thug, but these have been ironed out into níor rug, níor thug... |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3582 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:24 am: |
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quote:Also deponent forms of verbs ?? Sa tSean-Ghaeilge, ach ní sa Nua-Ghaeilge. Tóg go bog é. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 223 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 01:06 pm: |
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Níl ach focal amháin ina sheandiúscartach (old deponent), go bhfios dom: "feadair" . "dependent forms" a bhí ar intinn aige, is dócha. Lars (Message edited by lars on April 07, 2008) |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3586 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 01:10 pm: |
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Is dócha gurbh é "dependent" a bhí i gceist ag Bearn. Maidir le "feadair", níl a fhios agam off the top of my head. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2335 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:13 pm: |
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The choice between "present" conjunctions and those with -r with irregular verbs change in the dialects. For example, in some dialects people say: ní thug, níor chuas (= ní dheachaigh mé), ní tháinig, níor úrt, níor rinne... In Munster, younger speakers would use "ní" (and all present conjunctions, go, etc) with regular verbs and most irregular ones, because the form of the verb is sufficient to know the tense. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1233 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 06:25 pm: |
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quote:níor rinne... How do you know they say "níor rinne" and not "ní rinne" - they sound absolutely the same. quote:In Munster, younger speakers would use "ní" (and all present conjunctions, go, etc) with regular verbs Arís: i gCiarraí amháin, ach ní hé Ciarraí an Mhumha iomlán. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 405 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 10:04 pm: |
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Is it flatly wrong to simply use níor all the time for past-tense negatives? :) |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3590 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 10:37 pm: |
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Don't make no nevermind, long as ya ain't afeared o' soundin' iggorant. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:14 pm: |
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Róman, ní rinne: has a slender r in the middle níor rinne: has a broad r in the middle |
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Antaine
Member Username: Antaine
Post Number: 1222 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:44 pm: |
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I've heard that in Munster déan is a regular verb. They don't say rinne...it would be Ní dhéan mé... |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3592 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 12:33 am: |
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quote:ní rinne: has a slender r in the middle níor rinne: has a broad r in the middle Ní dóigh liom é. Bíonn an 'r' leathan i gcónaí, go bhios domsa. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 01:37 am: |
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Antaine, in Munster do-ghním is an irregular verb. They would say: níor dheineas Dennis: maybe you are right. |
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 01:55 am: |
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Oops. All that talk of níor rinne got me off track. In Munster they would say: do dheineas in the positive, ní dhearnag in the negative. I would say: do rinneas, ní dhearnag. The CO would say: rinne mé, ní dhearna mé. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2337 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 02:00 am: |
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quote:How do you know they say "níor rinne" and not "ní rinne" - they sound absolutely the same. Because they use all particles with -r, as far as I know, ie. nár rinne (different from nach rinne), etc. Initial r may be slender when it is lenited in parts of Munster. But in Munster, as far as I know, they don't say níor rinne nor ní rinne (but níor dhein or maybe ní dhein) so in this case there would be no difference between níor rinne and ní rinne. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1235 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 02:21 am: |
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quote:different from nach rinne A fair point, but not conclusive. In many dialects "thánig" is used with "níor", but with "go": "go dtáinig"; rarer the same is true about "thug". Thus, you may have different particles (with or without ro) with the same verb, thus, "nár rinne" does not exactly prove the existence of "níor rinne". quote: But in Munster, as far as I know, they don't say níor rinne nor ní rinne . I think they did in Tiobraid Árainn (Tipperary) - and by extension in Luimneach. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2338 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 12:19 pm: |
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quote:A fair point, but not conclusive. In many dialects "thánig" is used with "níor", but with "go": "go dtáinig"; rarer the same is true about "thug". Cá háit, agus cá bhfios duit? Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1236 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 12:27 pm: |
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In Munster, for example. See TYI (Dillon) - and I would guess very much Sjoestedt had the same things. p.s. Lughaidh - how big is Sjoestedt? Is it feasible to scan it? at least the phonetics part? It is out of print since a long time, and unfortunately even the National library of Lithuania does not have it... Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 12:44 pm: |
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Why "even" the national library of Lithuania? Is the LIthuanian national library peculiarly well stocked? |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1237 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 04:04 pm: |
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The National library is the biggest in Lithuania, thus saying "absent from even in the National Library" effectively means it is not available anywhere in the whole country. I did not imply Lithuania is well stocked in all thing Celtic, but here I live and here are my limited options... Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 406 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 09:48 pm: |
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In Munster they would say: do dheineas in the positive, ní dhearnag in the negative. Is the "do" particle still used in all past-tense positive statements, in Munster? |
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 12:03 am: |
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No the "do" particle is not always used, but it is used some of the time. An Teanga Bheo Chléire shows frequent use of "do". |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2339 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 03:31 pm: |
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quote:do dheineas in the positive, ní dhearnag in the negative. I guess it's a typo for "ní dhearnas", or? quote:I would say: do rinneas, ní dhearnag. Where do people say "do rinneas"? quote:The CO would say: rinne mé, ní dhearna mé. In Gweedore (NW Donegal) as far as I know: Rinn mé, cha dtearr mé. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Trigger
Member Username: Trigger
Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 03:37 pm: |
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Around Gweedore areas they also say ''Cha dtearn mé'' Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2340 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 03:39 pm: |
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quote:p.s. Lughaidh - how big is Sjoestedt? Is it feasible to scan it? at least the phonetics part? It is out of print since a long time, and unfortunately even the National library of Lithuania does not have it... There are 2 volumes, one about morphology and syntax, and one about phonetics. I only have the first one. We don't have the 2nd one at our university as far as I know (that has one of the most important Celtic departments in France, though). The volume I have, has 222 pages, and I've made a photocopy of it. I'd like to have the volume about phonetics but I'll have to find it somewhere else. Or maybe they have it at my university but it isn't in their catalogues... that happens. Nice to notice that Sjoestedt mentions she got most of her morphological stuff from Peig Sayers herself ! By the way, it's in French, so I hope you can read French, Róman (I guess you do, you seem to know many languages and French must be wee buns in comparison with Munster Irish... :-) ). Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1238 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 04:07 pm: |
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quote:I guess it's a typo for "ní dhearnas", or? No, it is not a typo. See also - thánag, chualag (Cork only). quote:Where do people say "do rinneas"? Nowhere, although some Ulster writers wrote it in the beginning of the 20th century. rinne itself hails from ro-ghní, thus it is no more "authentic" than dheineas (do-ghneas). quote:I only have the first one. That's a pity. I would die to see the other volume. Although grammar should be also fun. quote:so I hope you can read French Grammar treatise in any Germanic-Romance language is a piece of cake, especially if you know the basics of the grammar you intend to read. If I can read "Stair na Gaelainne" in Irish - I surely could read Sjoestedt-Jonval. quote:in comparison with Munster Irish Why Munster Irish was made a some kind of bogeyman? It is much simpler and more logical than Conemara Irish, because it is very transparent in its grammar. There might be more endings, but there are no "genitive exceptions" based not clear on what. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 04:39 pm: |
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I guess it's a typo for "ní dhearnas", or? Where do people say "do rinneas"? Lughaidh, it's not a typo. Ní dhearnag is what they say in Cléire according to Stair na Gaelainne. I just "correct" their "do dheineas" to "do rinneas" in line with Dinneen's and the early versions of the Christian Brothers' Grammar. I am not aware of anywhere that says "do rinneas" as such. |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 11:20 pm: |
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quote:Why Munster Irish was made a some kind of bogeyman? It is much simpler and more logical than Conemara Irish, because it is very transparent in its grammar. There is very little difference between the dialects grammatically. If you cannot master the nuances of Connemara Irish, that is no reason to denigrate it, as you consistently do, and for what? This issue has already been beaten to death on another forum in the past. Why don't you just let it lie? And are you referring to "Stair na Gaeilge"? |
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 12:50 am: |
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No one wants to denigrate anyone who has learned a dialect well, but to state there is "very little" difference between the dialects grammatically is absurd! The gen. form Gaedhilge is pronounced Gaelainne in Munster. Munster Irish, specifically Cork Irish, is the arcolect. We don't have to denigrate people learning other dialects, but we can feel entitled to our excitement at learning our Gaelic ancestors' arcolect. The old seanchaithe would have understood! |
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 12:59 am: |
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Excuse my mistake: I mean acrolect. As opposed to the Conemara basilect. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3602 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 01:16 am: |
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quote:Excuse my mistake: I mean acrolect. An mheancóg is mó a rinne tú ná an aimsir láithreach a úsáid! "Was", b'fhéidir, uair amháin. Ní anois. Tá súil agam gur féidir leat an méid seo a thuiscint. Níl a fhios agam, toisc nach scríobhann tú ach Béarla. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 01:25 am: |
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Ach, cé leis an (t-?) 'idiolect'? |
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Fadas (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 01:30 am: |
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Scusiwusi. 'Fadas' a scríobh. |
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Peter
Member Username: Peter
Post Number: 457 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 01:38 am: |
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quote:Excuse my mistake: I mean acrolect. As opposed to the Conemara basilect. Á ná bac le ceartúcháin! Tá cuma dheas mhaslach ar “arcolect”, is maith liom é... (Message edited by peter on April 10, 2008) 'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1239 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 02:18 am: |
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quote:There is very little difference between the dialects grammatically. A prime example of an anonymous groundless statement. The difference between dialects lies solely in the realm grammar, as the differences in pronunciation and vocabulary are trivial or only apparent (different frequency of words rather than different words altogether) quote:If you cannot master the nuances of Connemara Irish, that is no reason to denigrate it Just one more anonymous groundless statement. There is not much to muster in Conamara's Irish (except the infamous lists of "exceptions"), as it is a simplified version of Munster Irish in reality. The real question is if I want to master it. quote:And are you referring to "Stair na Gaeilge"? Yes, I refer to Stair na Gaelainne. Not everybody is happy with the dodgy spelling imposed on all of us by Conamarian Taliban. So I will continue to spell the words as I see fit. (Message edited by róman on April 10, 2008) Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 03:01 am: |
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A Dhonncha, ná fuilir id chomnaidhe i gCalifornia? Cad 'ina thaobh go bhfuilir ag scríobh teachaireachtaí annso, agus ná fuilir ag déanamh agóide in aghaidh tóirse Oilimpeach Síneach? |
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Peter
Member Username: Peter
Post Number: 458 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 04:42 am: |
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Chaith tú buama isteach sa téad seo, a chara... 'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 710 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 05:39 am: |
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I gcead duit, a Rómáin, sin seafóid chruthanta. Scríobh féin leabhar agus cuir cibé litriú is mian leat ar an ainm, ach i gcás leabhair atá foilsithe cheana féin fág an teideal mar a d'fhág an t-údar agus an foilsitheoir é. Sin is nós leis an aos léinn idir Bhéarla agus Ghaeilge, agus ní dhéanfaidh a shárú ach mearbhall a chur ar dhaoine. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 06:17 am: |
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A Abigail, ba cheart dúinn buint úsáid as an seana-litriughadh - is féidir an focal "Gaedhilge" a fhuaimniughadh "Gaeilge" nó "Gaelainne". |
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Peter
Member Username: Peter
Post Number: 462 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 06:22 am: |
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Abigail, go gnóthaí Dia dhuit! An bhfuil tú i gConamara i gcónaí? 'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1242 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 06:44 am: |
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Abigail, Why all this indignation? I just dared to change the spelling, not the word itself. And indeed there is no good reason why "Irish" should be "Gaeilge" by any measure because neither Munster, nor Ulster Irish has the final -e. Hence, the only true interdialectal compromise could have been Gaeilg, which would be in line with traditional spelling and the spelling in Scotland. Yet, a narrow tribal form is imposed under the guise of compromise. What kind of compromise is this when the opinion of minority is superimposed on the wish of majority? I just seen Conamarian Taliban's agenda here. And on a broader scale. When the GÚM butchers the texts of Peadar Ó Laoghaire or Peig Sayers, do you protest also? They do not only change the spellings (like "fé ndeara" -> "faoi deara"), they also bluntly change the words: garsún -> buachaill, or even impose alien (and historically wrong) grammar: bhíos -> bhí mé. But it is all ok with Conamarian Taliban. You are allowed to gut the texts by Máire, Peig Sayers or Ó Laoghaire, but don't touch the holy texts of Conamara, they are sacrosant. Go maire Gaelainn's Gaeilg! Ná maire "Gaeilge"! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 711 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 07:10 am: |
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Níl faraor; ní raibh ach cúig lá agam le spáráil ón ollscoil. Ach bhain mé an-taitneamh go deo as an gcuairt dá ghairide í - tá mé ag iarraidh ceann níos faide a dhéanamh amach anseo. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Peter
Member Username: Peter
Post Number: 463 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 07:49 am: |
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Sin go hiontach. Meas tú an bhfuil sé de spás a’d cúntas gearr a thabhairt uirthi (i dtéad eicínt níos caoinfhulangaí don Ghaeilge)? 'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 712 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 08:19 am: |
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Níl inniu, ach beidh cinnte! Bheadh sé sin déanta agam cheana féin ach go bhfuil carn mór oibre tite ar mo dheasca agus mé as láthair. A Rómáin - "indignation" ab ea? Cheap mé féin go raibh thuin mo ghearáin thuas sách measartha. Cá mbraitheann tú an t-indignation céanna? Más tú an t-údar, nó an foilsitheoir, déan do rogha rud leis; ní chuige sin atá mé. Más ag tagairt ar leabhar foilsithe atá tú, luíonn sé le ciall an litriú faoinar foilsíodh é a úsáid - d'fhonn is go mbeidh a fhios ag lucht do léite cad is ainm don leabhar agus cá bhfaigheadh siad é, murach aon chúis eile. Ní bhaineann sé le hábhar gur leagan "Chonamara" dar leat atá sa bhfocal áirithe seo; ní bheinn sásta an teideal "A Thig Ná Tit orm" a iompú ina "A Theach" ach an oiread. Ní ar son canúna ná caighdeáin áirithe atá mé, ach go dtráchtfaí ar theidil sa riocht inar foilsíodh iad, ar ghrá na soiléire. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:06 am: |
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Róman are you now spelling the subjunctive in -e? I think you need nár not ná. Go mairidh Gaedhaelg! Nár mairidh Gaeilge! |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3603 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:13 am: |
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quote:Ach, cé leis an (t-?) 'idiolect'? Le Seán Bán Mac Grianna, gan dabht. Nach eisean a dúirt rud éigin cosúil leis seo? "Tá an Ghaeilg is fearr in Éirinn in nDún na nGall, agus tá an Ghaeilg is fearr i nDún na nGall i Rann na Feirste, agus tá an Ghaeilg is fearr i Rann na Feirste agamsa!" {straoiseog anseo} "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3604 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:18 am: |
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quote:ná fuilir id chomnaidhe i gCalifornia? Tá cónaí orm i Seattle ó 1990 i leith. I gCalifornia a rugadh is tógadh mé, áfach. Cá bhfuil tusa? "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3605 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:24 am: |
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quote:Á ná bac le ceartúcháin! Tá cuma dheas mhaslach ar “arcolect”, is maith liom é... Agus is ar "basilisk" a smaoinigh mé ar dtús nuair a chonaic mé "basilect" thuas. Seachain amharc agus anáil bhaisilisc na Gaillimhe. Tá sé deadly. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:34 am: |
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Táim im dhuine idirnáisiúnta, acht tá comhnaidhe buan orm i Zsasana. B'fhéidir go n-aistreóchad go hÉirinn (go dtí Gaedhaelthact na Mumhan) an bhliadhain seo chughainn. |
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:55 am: |
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Oops! Is amadán mé! Nár mairidh Gaeilge: teastuigheann séimhiughadh ón abairt seo! Nár mhairidh "Gaeilge"! |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:01 pm: |
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quote:We don't have to denigrate people learning other dialects, but we can feel entitled to our excitement at learning our Gaelic ancestors' arcolect. The old seanchaithe would have understood! Some of us are not learning any dialects; we know the language from the cradle. As a native speaker, I find little difference between the dialects, and have no difficulty understanding the others. Of course, you should feel excited at learning the language. But I for one, have little patience with people with very limited abilities in the language blathering about dialects as our Lithuanian diletante does. |
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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 01:34 am: |
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I don't know how to respond to an anonymous post. Whoever expected native speakers to have difficulty understanding other dialects? What an absurd assumption you make! I think you will find no one has ever suggested that native speakers have difficulty understanding Irish. Being a native speaker does not give one an academic knowledge of dialectal nuances. I expect Róman can outclass you on that one. My mother is a native speaker of English - but get her talking on the use of the subjunctive in Aberdeen and she will soon have little to say on the subject - if she understands it at all. As far as know she has never been to Aberden but "having learned English from the cradle, has little difficulty understanding Aberdeen English". Can we stop this anti-learning atmosphere? Can we knock it on the head in fact? People are trying to learn really well here. I am certainly greatly inferior in my knowledge and approach to Róman, but I am trying to invest great time and energy in as academic approach as I can. I look every word up in Dinneen's dictionary, and then look them all up in IWM to find the Muskerry pronunciation. This approach should not be despised. There won't be any great celticists in the future unless anyone is prepared to immerse himself in all the nuances. So you are a native speaker, are you? Can you talk about anything other than having lunch and cleaning the house in Irish? Can you translate the following paragraph without aid of a dictionary into good Cork Irish (as you claim native speakerdom makes you a dialectal expert): "Humankind has not yet discovered how to exploit wormholes in space in order to travel vast distances. So far, Einstein's theory of relativity confines us to the Earth, or parts of the galaxy adjacent to it, as travelling at the speed of light would require infinite mass and other space-time distortions. Rocket technology can only get us so far. It is unlikely we would be able to travel to the nearest viable planet, apparently near Alpha Centauri, without the use of wormholes. For one thing, after the rocket passes Neptune and Jupiter and enters the Oort Cloud, the solar wind gets weaker and weaker, and our knowledge of what would happen to a flimsily built space ship in the vast heliopause beyond must be limited." |
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 415 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 01:47 am: |
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Can we stop this anti-learning atmosphere? No shit. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1244 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 03:18 am: |
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quote:But I for one, have little patience with people with very limited abilities in the language blathering about dialects as our Lithuanian diletante does. And I have no time for anonymes. Either professional or diletants. It is very easy to say nasty things hiding behind the cloak of IP address. Be brave to sign your posts! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1246 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 05:38 am: |
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quote:we know the language from the cradle Should we all be shocked and awed now? And I naively thought that every person on this planet knows at least one language from the cradle. What is so exceptional about it? quote:people with very limited abilities in the language blathering about dialects What about your expanded abilities in Lithuanian, non-diletant? I find your arrogantly cocky attitude simply laughable. It makes one wonder why did it take blathering foreigners: A Dane - to write the first grammar of Old Irish A German - to make the linguistic survey of dialects A German (the other now) and a Frenchwoman - to make first scientific description of Irish dialects (Arann islands and Kerry, respectively). Surely, all this happened because of supreme expanded capabilities of native speakers, no? Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2345 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 06:31 am: |
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Aye, many studies about Celtic languages in general (not only Irish, but Scottish Gaelic and Breton too) were made by people from other countries. Wasn't Wagner a Swissman? I thought so. By the way, I think Róman is the person who best knows Munster Irish on this forum... Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1247 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 07:08 am: |
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Lughaidh, I am really flattered, but this surely is not true. I have a still long way to go. Mar deirid siad - Tá Éire fada fairsing 's níl aon chlaí ar Albain! The same applies to my studies of Irish. However, I will defend my right to spell Irish in traditional way, no matter what. CO was a mistake, and no one can prove it otherwise. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2346 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 07:25 am: |
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Róman, cé a bhfuil níos mó eolais aige ná atá agad féin fán chanúint sin ins an fhóram seo? Is féidir go bhfuil daoiní a bhfuil níos mó eolais acu ar a’ Ghaeilg go ginearálta, ach ar Ghaeilg na Mumhan, ní dóigh liom é. Maidir leis a’ chaighdeán, deirfinn go bhfuil cupla rud maith ann (mar athrú -ughadh go -ú nó rudaí eile a giorradh), ach deirfinn go bhfuil barraíocht rudaí gan chéill ann; níos mó míbhuntáistí ná buntáistí. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Ingeborg
Member Username: Ingeborg
Post Number: 39 Registered: 03-2008
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 07:36 am: |
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quote:Wasn't Wagner a Swissman Are you speaking about the Swiss linguist Heinrich Wagner (1923-1988) who is the author of "Linguistic Atlas and Survey of Irish Dialects"? |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1249 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 07:46 am: |
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quote:cé a bhfuil níos mó eolais aige ná atá agad féin fán chanúint sin ins an fhóram seo? Ní fheadar, ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil duine éigin ann! quote:Is féidir go bhfuil daoiní a bhfuil níos mó eolais acu Go deimhin, níl aon dabht orm! quote:deirfinn go bhfuil cupla rud maith ann (mar athrú -ughadh go -ú nó rudaí eile a giorradh Is fíor duit. Ach ní hé an caighdeán oifigiúil an t-ábhar leitrithe amháin, faraor. Níl aon locht ar leitriú "gearr", dar liom. Ach cuireadh an-athrú ar ghramadaigh, ar abairtí dílise leis. Goideadh anam na Gaelainne! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1250 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 07:49 am: |
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quote:Are you speaking about the Swiss linguist Heinrich Wagner Sure he does. It is the same gentleman that I referred to mistakenly as "German". I am sorry, but it is easy to mix-up German-speaking researchers. I keep forgetting there are also famous Austrians and Swiss, my bad! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Ingeborg
Member Username: Ingeborg
Post Number: 40 Registered: 03-2008
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 08:23 am: |
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To Róman: quote:how big is Sjoestedt? Is it feasible to scan it? at least the phonetics part? It is out of print since a long time, and unfortunately even the National library of Lithuania does not have it... Which one do you mean? In Germany a big bunch of rare books is easily available via "Fernleihe". I think Lughaidh spoke about Titel Description d'un parler irlandais de Kerry par M. L. Sjoestedt-Jonval Band 270 Verfasser Sjoestedt, Marie-Louise Erschienen Paris : Champion, 1938 Schriftenreihe Bibliothèque de l'École des Hautes Études, Sciences Historiques et Philologiques ; 270 Format XI, 222 S. Seiten XI, 222 S. but there is also the older one Titel Phonétique d'un parler irlandais de Kerry M. L. Sjoestedt Band 4 Verfasser Sjoestedt, Marie-Louise Erschienen Paris : Leroux, 1931 Schriftenreihe Collection de documents linguistiques ; 4 Format X, 190 S. Seiten X, 190 S. Do you mean this? Are you in need of this? To make a scan would be no big business for me. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1251 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 09:26 am: |
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Ingebord, mo cheól thú! Usually this book is referred to as "Déscription d'un parler...", but the name of the second book is conspicuous. Does anyone know if there is any difference between those books? Lughaidh, what is the exact title of your volume? Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Ingeborg
Member Username: Ingeborg
Post Number: 41 Registered: 03-2008
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 10:20 am: |
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I think they are two different œuvres. I read a kind of review of a certain Jonas Holmqvist on the page https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0109&L=GAELIC-L&P=749 He writes: Phonétique d'un parler irlandais de Kerry (in French) By Maria Sjoestedt-Jonval This book is based on the Irish of An Blascaod Mór (Great Blasket Island) and Dún Chaoin. In fact, it's the only full phonetic description of Corca Dhuibhne Irish. Given the romantic view of Blasket-Irish it could be quite popular if it weren't for the fact that it's long out of print, and I think I can guess why. First, it's doubtless a very useful book if you speak French, but unfortunately English monoglots seem to get thicker on the ground every year. If you don't speak French you will find this book quite useless. Most people with an interest in Irish come from an English-speaking background, and this will reduce the market of this book quite a lot. Even if you do speak a bit of French you might find it hard to read a book on linguistics. (I'm a good example of this myself. I speak a bit of French and I get around in France, but I'm not that able to use linguistics..). I've struggled through it, though, since I found this book in a library before I found other books on Munster dialects, so I can make some comments on it. For those fluent French-speakers (like Benoit) there are still two points to notice. It's a very well written book, but the speech has changed since it was written, even if this is most obvious in the other book, the one dealing with grammar. Then there's the fact that the author uses a phonetic system that is strikingly different from other Irish linguists. That's not a problem at all if you know the dialect, since it's easy to figure out which sound is described by which symbol. If you speak a very different dialect, or don't speak Irish, it will get much harder. So, I think this was a very good book when it was written, but it could do with some modifications to the phonetics. Description d'un parler irlandais de Kerry (in French) by Marie Sjoestedt-Jonval This is the grammar-book on Blascaod/Dún Chaoin Irish. Most of what is said above is true here as well. The point about dated forms are of course much more evident here. In this book you'll find genuine forms that were used on the Blaskets, but not all of them are still in use, though, even if most are. This is not a bad book on grammar, but not at all as good as Ó Sé's new work. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1252 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 10:39 am: |
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Ok, so those are just 2 volumes of the same work. "Déscription" being the grammar part, and "Phonétique" - the phonetic part. I know "certain" Jonas very well (although just virtually) - who doesn't on this board? It was largely thanks to him that I did not give up on my Irish in 2004 when I was on the point of desperation. Although he, apparently, has lost the interest in Irish himself, I still have the saves of many of his posts on my hard disc and often refer to him. I remember he was close to omnipresent God in my eyes - he knew so much about everything, and I knew nothing. It was mind-boggling how he juggled and twisted the facts about Mayo, Waterford etc dialects, some of which I couldn't even spell (like Tourmakeady - Tuar Mhic Éadaigh). I was afraid of even removing a comma from his posts; everything was kept as frozen in his word as he had said himself. Now, as I have much deeper understanding of Irish - I see he was not right all of the time, although, probably - some 95% of time THANK YOU JONAS!!! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 484 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 02:42 am: |
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". (I'm a good example of this myself. I speak a bit of French and I get around in France, but I'm not that able to use linguistics..)." I'm the opposite, I can get thru more technical books in French due to the high register loans been more numerous at that level between English and French. I even shipped that horrid expensive French book on Middle Irish out to where I live... "So, I think this was a very good book when it was written, but it could do with some modifications to the phonetics. " Same could be said for O Quiggin... "THANK YOU JONAS!!!" And a beacon goes out into the black night... le díol
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2349 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 06:25 pm: |
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I'd love to get a copy of the "Phonétique d'un parler irlandais de Kerry". If someone can scan it... Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 715 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 07:17 pm: |
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However, I will defend my right to spell Irish in traditional way, no matter what. CO was a mistake, and no one can prove it otherwise. Agus nuair a bhíonn tú ag scríobh thar do cheann féin, tá an ceart sin agat gan aon agó. Níor chuir mé i do choinne agus ní chuirfidh. Is é atá mé a áiteamh gur chóir sleachta litríochta - teidil san áireamh - a thabhairt slán mar a fuarthas iad, gan caighdeánú ná traidisiúnú ná aon athrú eile a imirt orthu. Ní mé cé acu nár thuig tú é sin ón méid a dúirt mé cheana, nó arbh fhearr leat ceist eile a fhreagairt seachas an ceann a cuireadh (seanchleas lucht argóna.) Nílim ag iarraidh fiúntas an C.O. a phlé leat a thuilleadh. Tuigim nach mbeadh aon mhaith ann do cheachtar againn. Ach ní bhaineann sé sin le hábhar anseo beag ná mór: ní foláir "Stair na Gaeilge" a scríobh sa gcás seo, ní toisc gurb é rogha an C.O. é, ach toisc gurbh é rogha an údair é. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 3626 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 08:14 pm: |
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quote:ní foláir "Stair na Gaeilge" a scríobh sa gcás seo, ní toisc gurb é rogha an C.O. é, ach toisc gurbh é rogha an údair é. Abair é! "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2351 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 08:43 am: |
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Na daoiní a labhras Gaeilg Chonamara, chan fheiceann siad lom láithreach go bhfuil rudaí míloighiciúla sa chaighdeán, siocair gur de réir rialacha na canúna sin a rinneadh ’n chuid is mó don chaighdeán. Ach tchífidh na hUltaigh agus na Muimhnigh nach bhfuil mórán rud loighiciúil ann. Mar shampla: cruaidh > CO crua, siocair go n-abartar "crua" i gConamara (cruaidh in Ultaibh agus i Mumhain). chuaigh > CO chuaigh, ach deirtear "chua" i gConamara (agus sna canúintí eile roimhe na forainmneacha nuair is ainmnithe iad) ach "chuaigh" in Ultaibh agus i Mumhain. Rud céarna leis a’ chuid is mó do na briathra dar críoch -(a)igh nó -(a)idh... Tuighe a dtearnadh duifear eadar na briathra le -idh/-igh agus na haidiachtaí nó na hainmneacha le -igh/-idh ? Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1256 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 04:43 pm: |
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Lughaidh, ní fiú é! Ní thuigfid siad go deó, ná bac leó . Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6933 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 04:48 pm: |
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Agus ní thuigeann tusa, is cosúil, an pointí simplí a rinne Abigail. Má athraíonn tusa teideal leabhair, ní bheidh duine eile in ann an leabhar sin a fháil. Sin a bhfuil. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1258 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:02 pm: |
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An mó leabhar le teideal "Stair na Gaelainne" atá ann i nGaeilainn? Deich gceann, nó fiche? Sin é! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6936 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:08 pm: |
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Cinnte, sin freagra ar an bpointe a d'ardaigh Abigail. Tuige ar thóg sé seachtain ort é a thabhairt? |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1260 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:12 pm: |
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Níl aon phointe le hAbigail, ná raibh riamh. Ní fachtar aon fheabh ina ná fuil aon cheann! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6938 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:17 pm: |
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Róman, níl ansin ach masla gan chúis. Ar léigh tú fiú an méid a scríobh sí? |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1261 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:18 pm: |
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Pé scéal é, a Aonghuis, an bhfuil a fhios agat cén teideal atá ag [Sasanach] "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone" i Meirice, seans? Beidh ionadh ort, is dóigh liom. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1262 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:20 pm: |
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quote:Ar léigh tú fiú an méid a scríobh sí? Arbh fhiú é? (Message edited by róman on April 13, 2008) Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6940 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:23 pm: |
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Sorcerer. (Órchloch as Gaeilge) Tá amhras faoi fealsaimh thall - i measc an daoscarshlua margaíochta. Rinne an t-údar cinneadh ar an mbonn sin lena foilsitheoir. Is minic teideal amháin ar leabhar thall, agus ceann eile abhus. Agus do phointe? Ciníochas, seans? Mar a deir lucht an Bhéarla, imir an liathróid, ní an fear (nó, sa chás seo, an bhean). |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1263 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:27 pm: |
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Mo phointe - Gaeilge/Gaeilg/Gaeilainn - trí leitriú CHANÚNACH d'aon fhocal amháin, agus níl aon ghá dhom i nGaelainn na Conamara a scríobh mar go bhfuil Gaelainn na Mumhan á foghlaim agam, ná na Conamara. (Message edited by róman on April 13, 2008) Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6943 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:33 pm: |
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Agus mar a dúirt Abigail, ní hé sin an cheist a d'ardaigh sí. |
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 723 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:36 pm: |
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Ní gá dhuit, más iad do chuid focal féin atá tú a scríobh. Ní dúirt mé riamh gur ghá. Ach má théann tú ag tabhairt sleachta, tabhair sliocht slán! Dhéanfá sin dá mba shliocht as lár leabhair a bhí i gceist, nach ndéanfá? Cén fáth go gcaithfí go héagsúil le teidil? Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1264 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:40 pm: |
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Abigail - an uair dheireanach amháin. Scríobhaim "Gaelainn" I G-C-N-O-M-H-N-A-Í, ní scríobhaim "Gaeilge" i n-aon chor, níl sé tábhachtach an teideal an leabhair é nó rud éigin eile. An gceapann tú? (Message edited by róman on April 13, 2008) Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 724 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 05:48 pm: |
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Is deacair liom é a chreidiúint. Dá mbeifeá ag tabhairt sleachta ón mBéal Bocht, cuirimis i gcás - ar chóir dom a thuiscint go scríobhfá mar seo é, le huaschamóga agus uile? "Thuig sé go mbíonn an dea-Ghaelainn deacair agus an Ghaelainn is fearr beagnach dothuigthe." Más ea, cén difear atá idir sin agus caighdeánú an Ghúim a mbíonn tú ag síorghearán faoi? An mbeifeá sásta a leithéid a fhulaingt ó fhoilsitheoir, ó eagarthóir, ó léirmheastóir irise? Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 1265 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 06:03 pm: |
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quote:Is deacair liom é a chreidiúint. Nách é seo t'fhadhb-sa, ná mo cheann-sa? quote:Thuig sé go mbíonn an dea-Ghaelainn deacair agus an Ghaelainn is fearr beagnach dothuigthe Cén locht atá agat ar an sliocht so? quote:Más ea, cén difear atá idir sin agus caighdeánú an Ghúim Ní athraím na focail, leitriú amháin. Afách, fanann "madadh" an madadh agam, ní athraíonn sé ina "mhadra" 7rl. Má deireann Máire "bhí mé", .i. "bhí mé", ná "bhíos". Chím anois ná tuigir an rud ar bith i gcomhnaí. Níl aon fhocal mar [ge:ligi] nó [bi:x] agam, mar sin níl ná leitriú "Gaeilge", "buíoch" ach oiread. Deirim [ge:lin`], [be:x] agus scríobhaim "Gaelainn", "baoch" sin é! Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 725 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 06:14 pm: |
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quote:Cén locht atá agat ar an sliocht so? Gabh mo leithscéal; is fíor nach ndearna mé an méid sin soiléir thuas. An locht atá air ná nach sliocht ceart dílis é a thuilleadh; tá an litriú athruithe. "an dea-Ghaeilge" agus "an Ghaeilge" a scríobh an t-údar (nó a d'fhoilsigh an foilsitheoir san eagrán atá agam féin, ar aon nós. Ní heol dom céard a bhí sa lámhscríbhinn ná sa gcéad eagrán mar níl teacht agam orthu.) Meas tú go bhfuil sé de cheart agat féin an litriú a athrú agus é a thabhairt uait mar sliocht dílis ón leabhar? Sin an pointe a bhfuilim fós in amhras faoi. Ceist shimplí é, agus níl aon mhaith dúinn an chuid eile a phlé nó go scaipfear an t-amhras. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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