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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (March- April) » Archive through April 15, 2008 » How do you say the following as Gaeilge in Munster? « Previous Next »

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

How do you say the following as Gaeilge
"They can learn Irish and have fun at the same time"

Go raibh maith agat.

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Rg_cuan
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Username: Rg_cuan

Post Number: 266
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

'Is féidir leo Gaolainn a fhoghlaim agus spraoi a bhaint as ag an am gcéanna.'

Cad é a deir sibh a Mhuimhnigh?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2328
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 03:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maybe they would say :

Féadaid siad Gaelainn a dh'fhoghlaim agus spraoi a bhaint as aigen am c(h)éanna.

or:

Is féidir leotha Gaelainn...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1211
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

'Is féidir leo Gaolainn a fhoghlaim agus spraoi a bhaint as ag an am gcéanna.'



"Gaolainn" is a wrong spelling, based on wrong etymology. Word "Gaelainn"/ "Gaeilg"/ "Gaeilge" is derived from "Gael" (a Celt), not from "gaol" (a relative). The coincidence of those words in Munster pronunciation is accidental and comparatively recent.

spraoi is a Conamara word. Munster word would be "sult" or taithneamh.

I agree with the rest of translation.

quote:

Féadaid siad



féad is reserved for future tense, "is féadir" is much more oommon in present and past tense

quote:

a dh'fhoghlaim



i gCiarraí amháin.

#

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2330
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 02:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go roibh math agut, a Rómain!
So this is the corrected sentence:

Is féidir leotha Gaelainn a (dh')fhoghlaim agus sult a bhaint as aigen am c(h)éanna.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1218
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 03:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

why leótha?

baint - rather buint or even buaint

"ag an" and "aigen" are pronounced the same, so I see no point in straying from CO on this one

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2331
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Leotha is what they say in Dunquin, according to Sjoestedt's book.
I chose to write "aigen" because without the article, the preposition is pronounced "aige" (ex: aige Seán), according to An Teanga Bheo. So it's more logical to write "aigen" than to come back to "ag an" while "ag" is pronounced as "aige"...

"Baint" may be a proper spelling too. In Ulster we say "buint" too, but so far I always saw "baint" in texts. But of course, we may write it "buint" as well, if we want to stick to what is said.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Nuge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:a dh'fhoghlaim


i gCiarraí amháin.


Agus i bport lairge chomh maith?

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1224
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 03:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Leotha is what they say in Dunquin



Both leóthu and leó, according to An Teanga Bheo: Gaelainn Chorca Dhuibhne, but certainly "leó" in Cléire and Múscraí. So if the question was about "Munster", then "leó" makes more sense.

quote:

preposition is pronounced "aige" (ex: aige Seán), according to An Teanga Bheo.



That is correct. But still, it does not change the fact that both "aigen" and "ag an" are pronounced [ig`@(n)], so why bother with non-CO spellings if they give exactly the same result?

quote:

"Baint" may be a proper spelling too. In Ulster we say "buint" too, but so far I always saw "baint" in texts.



I see a clear contradiction with what you just said above. It does not matter how the word was spelled in Middle Irish (what "baint" in reality is). In Modern Irish, represented by its 3 dialects, 2 dialects agree on [bin`t`] pronunciation, thus "buint" is much better spelling.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Rg_cuan
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Username: Rg_cuan

Post Number: 267
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 08:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman

Ní raibh a fhios agam go raibh dóigh choitianta ann chun an focal 'Gaelainn' a litriú - therefore it was not based on the 'wrong etymology'.

And I asked a girl from Corca Dhuibhne would they use 'sult' much and she said no, so that's why I picked 'spraoi'. 'Taitneamh', or 'spórt', is probably the better choice.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1225
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 03:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, I suggested sult or taithneamh. I could quess she wouldn't use "spraoi" either. Spórt is also a good word, but limited in that sense to Corca Dhuibhne only.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 03:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was confused by the question "as Gaeilge in Munster". What does that mean???

Let's look at the word for "Irish" in Irish:

Nominative: Gaedhaelg
Genitive: Gaedhilge.......Gaelainne in Munster, Gaeilge in Conamara
Dative: Gaedhilg.........Gaelainn in Munster

It would seem that the Munster word for Irish is really a dative form that has displaced the nominative, but that is true of a large number of words. The genitive form has given rise to forms in Munster and Conamara.

So: let's put "as Gaeilge" into the old spelling: "as Gaedhilge". What does that mean? Anything? Anything at all?

Firstly the preposition "a" is followed by an "s" when the definite article or possessive adjective intervenes: as an, as mo, but otherwise the form used before a consonant is "a", not "as".

Secondly, you would not follow the preposition "a" by the genitive, but the dative.

The phrase "as Gaeilge" is doubly grammatically incorrect. The correct form is: "a' Gaelainn", or "i nGaelainn".

Now, you could ask me how to say it correctly in Conamara Irish... the answer it that it couldn't be done. They don't have a nominative or a dative form for the word in Conamara, and so one is bound to commit a solecism by using the word after a preposition that requires the dative!

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 33
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 06:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I was confused by the question "as Gaeilge in Munster". What does that mean???



Isn't it simply CO?
Gaeilge is V. declension, so there is no change at all:
Nom. Gaeilge
Gen. Gaeilge
Dat. Gaeilge
Acc. Gaeilge
Voc. a Ghaeilge

as is followed by the dative and does not affect the initial letter of the following noun.

so "as Gaeilge" is methinks correct CO.

In "Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla" there is the example (page 62, lemma "as": Abair as Gaeilge é = say it in Irish

The dialects work as usually different (the older spellings are also manifold), and so?

It is the the same, if I asked, what means X,Y in Scots and you counter:
No, you have to say, what does it mean in Buchan Claik.

As to the correct choice of the prepositions I have not mastered the language sufficient to say something.

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 06:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ingeborg,

the Gaeilge word was chosen as the standard with little or no rationale - as the standard is largely based on Galway Irish. But this word derives from the pre-CO genitive. In Galway the genitive form has become the only form, so that you can use it with all cases. But in Munster, there is still a distinction between Nom/Dat Gaelainn and Gen Gaelainne. Before the script and spelling reforms, everyone in Ireland wrote Gaedhilge as the genitive, but in Conamara they pronounced it Gaeilge, and in Munster they pronounced it Gaelainne. (note the nn is pronounced like ng, but palatalized, so it it Ge:ling'i).

The dative has been abolished in the CO, and so you rightly say that Gaeilge would be used in the CO where the dative was historically required. YOu rightly also say that - in the CO - the preposition is "as" regardless of the following letter.

But the CO contains many, many features that would have been grammatically incorrect immediately prior to the CO's creation. The Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla is a dictionary of CO Irish, and so does not resolve the issue. If you, however, look in Dinneen's dictionary, issued in 1927, you can see that the CO standardizers picked many forms from Galway that were seen at the time as incorrect and declared them to be the "standard".

1. The preposition should be "a", not "as", unless followed by the article, or by a vowel (in which case it is: a hÉirinn, out of Ireland). But the CO standardizers decided to "simplify" this in line with usage in Galway.
2. The use of Gaeilge in all cases in Galway was not because the word was 5th declension as you suggest (if it were, it would not be declined this way). It is just symptomatic of the loss of cases in GAlway. By the way, the 5th declension has been "abolished" by the government in the CO, and Gaedhaelg was a 2nd declension noun anyway...

I am not denying the term "as Gaeilge" is promoted as correct by the CO textbooks - I am just saying that they made a substandard form the standard. Actually, the term "as Gaeilge" in Galway, or (more correctly) "a Gaelainn" in Munster, was rarely used in the Gaeltacht, although it did exist. The normal form in Galway is "i nGaeilge" and in Munster "i nGaelainn", but as that requires knowledge of eclipsis, the government dredged up this "as Gaeilge" thing, which to me is like fingernails being scratched down a blackboard.

The original poster asked how to say something "as Gaeilge in Munster" - I would not have commented had he sought a CO form but he specifically wanted Munster forms - and so it was appropriate to tell him that "as Gaeilge" itself is not a Munster form...

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 34
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The use of Gaeilge in all cases in Galway was not because the word was 5th declension as you suggest



Yes, I meant of course IVth declension, which is now in CO and was in Dinneens time indeclinable in the singular.

quote:

By the way, the 5th declension has been "abolished" by the government in the CO



Is it? What I esteeded a CO grammar (Irish Grammar Book of Nollaig Mac Congáil) still has it with a seperate Genitive:
cathair (cathrach), traein (traenach), athair (athar), caora (caorach)
Of course, as always in CO the seperative Dative like caoraigh is lost.

quote:

The preposition should be "a", not "as", unless followed by the article, or by a vowel


I was glad to have one particle less, which is written simply "a". How don't you confuse them all? In Ó Dónaill there are eight different a's, ig. Vocative particle, relative particle, possessive particle etc. In pronuciation there are still more Svahs [ə] if you count "i", "ag" and often "an". Such important function words slip so easily from your attention, if they have no real phonological body!
So "as" joins the club.

quote:

where the dative was historically required


Is it still possible to use the Dative forms or are they history except some fossilized forms such as Éire -> Éirinn?
So would "leis an gcaraid" look and sound like a lore of yore? Are you boycotting more CO orthography relying on Dinneen?

For example I don't follow the German spelling reform of 1996 (my mother blames me always not to follow time) but in Irish the different adepts of norms seem to me more variable.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 02:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Of course, as always in CO the seperative Dative like caoraigh is lost.



Words like "caoraigh" or "traenaigh" have a rather dubious authenticity as already Old Irish had 2 datives - "caora" and "caoraigh" (in modern spelling) where "caora" was the historical form and "caoirigh" - analogical. So, I would not shed too many tears about these particular forms. The datives like "Éirinn", "caraid", "ceártain" are a completely different story altogether.

quote:

I was glad to have one particle less, which is written simply "a". How don't you confuse them all?



All those particles you refer to can be swallowed in a rapid speech. The main point is to keep the mutations right. It is exactly because of rather unambiguous mutations that all those particles have coincided in the first place.

This exact preposition is spelled a' (with apostrophe) so no confusion occurs in writing. There is no confusion in pronunciation either as it is pronounced [A] differently from all other a's pronounced [ə]

quote:

Is it still possible to use the Dative forms or are they history except some fossilized forms



Let me put it this way. In majority of cases it is the dative that has won over nominative, not vice versa. Dative form was used after almost all prepositions, and nominative - only after a handful (gan, idir, go dtí), so dative was much more frequent to start with. It is really bizarre how CO has handled the issue: they proclaimed some datives as new nominatives (abhainn, gualainn), whereas elsewhere insisted on abandoning dative (fuinneóg etc). Such arbitrary judging was really ridiculous. In order to be consistent and following the so loved Conamara - they should have promulgated "fuinneóig" as a new nominative. Anyway, from the Tory island in the very north to the Cléire island in the very south Irish speakers use "f(u)inneóig" with a slender 'g' in dative, not "fuinneóg" like caighdeán is insisting.

(Message edited by róman on April 07, 2008)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 02:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ingeborg, in Dinneen's time, the word was written Gaedhaelg/Gaedhilge/Gaedhilg and so was not 4th declension - and the fact that Munster Irish has a genitive for this word shows it is not and never has been 4th declension. But a lot of case distinctions have been lost in GAlway - you could say that thousands of nouns have been moved to the 4th declension, if you like to view it that way.

Ó Siadhail in Learning Irish focuses on a Galway dialect that has only one form in the plural (the dative has been lost, or rather, in many cases, the old dative plural in -aíbh has become the new nominative plural in -aí, as that is how -aíbh was pronounced in GAlway when there was a dative distinction; the vocative plural remains in 2 words according to that book; and the genitive plural remains in 7 words). Now, as for the singular: once again the dative is notionally abolished, but once again the old dative singular has very frequently become the new nominative, eg fuinneoig, caraid and many others. I believe the genitive singular is only functional in Galway in masculine 1st declension nouns. I don't think the gen form carad is still used there, for example. So the overall result is decay of the declensional system with genitives not always used, and thd dative singular becoming the new nominative.

So: leis an gcaraid does not look and sound like old folk forms - it is what they say in Conemara!! As caraid, the old dative, has become the only form in Conemara.

The problem facing standardizers was this:

Munster
the friend: an chara
with the friend: leis an gcaraid

Galway
the friend: an charaid
with the friend: leis an gcaraid

[I don't know enough about Ulster to say - apart from saying Ulster was not drawn on much for the CO.]

So: as the most populous Gaeltacht in Galway no longer had a fnctioning nominative/dative contrast, they chose to abolish the dative in the CO too... but they chose not to copy Galway's use of caraid as the nominative. This gave rise to the system:

CO
the friend: an chara
with the friend: leis an gcara*

*I use an asterisk here as a form not found in any place in Ireland or ever used in history was created as the "standard". No native speaker has ever said "leis an gcara", as, in those places where the dative is lost, they use caraid as the nominative anyway. So: the CO created forms that DON'T EXIST AND NEVER HAD EXISTED, like a kind of Esperanto.

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 03:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can I add Ingeborg that it is possible to use Éirinn as a nominative now that the dative has pushed out the nominative in many places? There is nothing fossilized about the dative singular. What is fossilized (from the Galway perspective) is the use of a form like fuinneog.

The 5th declension: it is either mentioned as you said in that grammar book or all its nouns are regarded as irregular as they do in Foclóir Póca. In addition, many of its nouns have been "reassigned". It is usually regarded as abolished, and indeed the standard textbooks don't cover it properly. Can you guess what the vocative plural of lacha, duck, is? And the vocative plural of caora, sheep? Because it has been more or less abolished, the textbooks you are using won't allow you to work out the answers.

My other point is to say that **I think** the cara/caraid distinction remains in Ulster Irish, but **I think** they would use lenition and not eclipsis: leis an charaid, but Lughaidh on this site is an Ulster expert and can tell you.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2334
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

(note the nn is pronounced like ng, but palatalized, so it it Ge:ling'i).



As far as I know, this is true in West Cork and Waterford (Ring), but not in Kerry.

West Cork & Ring: ˈgˠɛːlˠɪŋʲ
Kerry: ˈgˠɛːlˠɪnʲ

Strangely enough, slender nn is pronounced ng at the end of a word at the other end of the Gaelic-speaking world, ie. in the isle of Lewis, in the Outer Hebrides in Scotland (ex, they pronounce "tinn" as tʃeɪŋ).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/



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