"do chum glóire Dé agus onóra na hÉireann"

In this sentence onóir is in the genitive, after chun/chum. Why so 'long/medium range'?

It's Classical Irish so the grammar is a bit different (more genitives than today). In Modern Irish I think you'd have "Chun glóir Dé agus onóir na hÉireann".

Bearn - I have researched the topic a while ago and can state with all responsibility that is not very good Irish what you have written above. When you have nouns liked by an "agus" you HAVE TO repeat the preposition. Thus, "le Cáit agus LE Tomáisín", "chun glóire Dé agus CHUN onóra na hÉireann". The modern practice to omit the second preposition is unnatural for Irish and can only be explained by detrimental influence of English.

Lughaidh - does Ulster use nominative after chun? Are you sure of that? I mean - I know of "chun é a fheiscint", but with nouns?

Functional genitive: "chun glóire" but "chun glóir Dé."

Ah, but what if "dochum" is a noun rather than a preposition? For a modern example take "ar son" or "i ndiaidh". Would those have to be repeated, or can you say things like "ar son na bhfear agus na mban" in Classical Irish?

I don't know, and I'm leaving (for Connemara!!!) in an hour so I don't have time to track down any examples. Just tossing the idea out there.

B'fhéidir gur droch Ghaeilge atá ann, a Róman, ach tá an mana thart leis na cianta.

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When you have nouns liked by an "agus" you HAVE TO repeat the preposition.

I know! But many people (even native speakers) don't always do it nowadays.

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Lughaidh - does Ulster use nominative after chun? Are you sure of that? I mean - I know of "chun é a fheiscint", but with nouns?

See what Aibí said.
Anyway, in Donegal, most of the time "chun" is only used as a preposition to say "to a place": tá mé ag gabháil chun an bhaile (we use it all the time, while Munster and Connaught use "go dtí" instead).

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Ah, but what if "dochum" is a noun rather than a preposition? For a modern example take "ar son" or "i ndiaidh".

Dochum is a preposition, followed by the genitive because historically it was a verbal noun, I think.

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Functional genitive: "chun glóire" but "chun glóir Dé."

No, and I can prove it. First of all, "suspended genitive" would require séimhiú: *chun ghlóir Dé, but this is not suspended genitive here. Suspended genitive is used in a free combining string of nouns like - "the car of the brother of Seán" - "carr dhriotháir Sheáin". "Glóir Dé" is a fixed expression, not two nouns freely combining, so you treat it as one, suspended genitive here is wrong.

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Would those have to be repeated, or can you say things like "ar son na bhfear agus na mban" in Classical Irish?

That is a good question, which although it does not apply to "chun", merits a careful contemplation. I know "go dtí" is repeated, so maybe other preps too?

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I know! But many people (even native speakers) don't always do it nowadays.

All the more the reason to resist erroneous practice. Irish language, sadly, is in a state of decay, therefore, not everything uttered by native speakers is a flawless language. Luckily we have a huge corpus of pristine language recorded in the first half of 20th century. Think yourself - even as native speakers of your own languages, do you always speak impeccable language? or you slip sometimes things you wish you said differently given a choice anew?

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Anyway, in Donegal, most of the time "chun" is only used as a preposition to say "to a place":

Only with article? Can't you use without article? Actually how do you express purpose in clauses? with "le"?

I myself have to run off (to meet a person, not a plane -good trip Abigail!) but I will say I got the example off the internet and found it interesting, hence my posting of it here.

I found it interesting as I am beginning to suspect that conjunctions might be the single most important thing in Irish for the learner as they encompass so much to pull off correctly

"Luckily we have a huge corpus of pristine language recorded in the first half of 20th century."

Piosa beag áidh mhaith!

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quote:Functional genitive: "chun glóire" but "chun glóir Dé."

No, and I can prove it. First of all, "suspended genitive" would require séimhiú: *chun ghlóir Dé, but this is not suspended genitive here. Suspended genitive is used in a free combining string of nouns like - "the car of the brother of Seán" - "carr dhriotháir Sheáin". "Glóir Dé" is a fixed expression, not two nouns freely combining, so you treat it as one, suspended genitive here is wrong.

But here you've not given any evidence that you'd say "chun glóire Dé" in Modern Irish...

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All the more the reason to resist erroneous practice. Irish language, sadly, is in a state of decay, therefore, not everything uttered by native speakers is a flawless language. Luckily we have a huge corpus of pristine language recorded in the first half of 20th century. Think yourself - even as native speakers of your own languages, do you always speak impeccable language? or you slip sometimes things you wish you said differently given a choice anew?

They say things that are not in Standard French, that's all. But linguistically speaking, it's not wrong. It's just like Ulster Irish compared to Standard Irish: you wouldn't say it's wrong simply because it's not Standard.

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quote:Anyway, in Donegal, most of the time "chun" is only used as a preposition to say "to a place":

Only with article? Can't you use without article? Actually how do you express purpose in clauses? with "le"?

I don't think you'd use it much without the article. With a place-name without article you use "go".
Purpose is expressed mainly by "le" or "fá choinne" in Donegal.
Chuaigh mé chun an mhargaidh le bia a cheannacht.
Chuaigh mé chun an mhargaidh fá choinne bia a cheannacht.

(by the way, "chun an" is pronounced "na": chuaigh mé na mhargaidh).

"[The] Irish language, sadly, is in a state of decay"

sigh...

The Irish language is in a state of evolution, as it shall remain until the day it dies...that goes for every other living language.

"not everything uttered by native speakers is a flawless language. "

True, but if this is going to be a new convention in the language, are you saying that now even native-driven change is invalid?

"Luckily we have a huge corpus of pristine language recorded in the first half of 20th century."

And we have a huge corpus of pristine english recorded prior to the coming of the Normans and all their Romance influence. I think that's just called "antiquated."

While I don't personally agree with the "native only" yardstick for change validity (In a case like Irish especially, I favor a "majority" yardstick...no longer are most of the speakers natives), I can at least see where that argument is coming from. But if the convention regarding repetition of the preposition is going to change, and the natives are going along with it, you're going to argue with that, too? That smacks of proscriptive elitism...

I'm sorry, but attempts to freeze "valid" Irish in the 19th century (or even early 20th) are one of the main things that frustrates its revival and acceptance in its own native country - and will, if successful, be responsible for Gaeilge's ultimate death.

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In a case like Irish especially, I favor a "majority" yardstick...no longer are most of the speakers natives),

It would be the only language on earth whose reference language wouldn't be the natives' one !
Nowadays, most English speakers on Earth are not natives either. So do you want that non-native English become the norm? Then you'll have to learn your native language again and accept all the mistakes of the non-natives as new grammar rules you have to follow.

We're not going to accept learners' mistakes as the Irish norm just because most Irish speakers today are learners and don't speak properly. Let's be serious.

"the main things that frustrates its revival"

Come on -are you saying that *taking the position, by a small set of people, that non-native Irish is sub-standard, is frustrating the revival*.

OK lets say you believe that.

Now try to see my point of view as someone who grew up in Ireland. There is no chance in hell of Irish *of any form* enjoying a revival. Period.

Second, there is no non-native variety developing -it's an oxymoron. If there were, there would be natives speakers of this variety. There is not. No children are been brought up in a community with it.

So since the native variety is dying, and has decayed for generations, and no new language besides English has taken root in Ireland, I would say evolution is an awfully odd word for the situation.

The situation is not sexy and innovative like you paint it -it is boring like most other examples of language death -the community of speakers switched languages.


I saw a number of examples of why Irish is doomed (in Ireland) last summer, and I will repeat them for you now:

* Native speakers refused service in local business (by natives) if Irish is spoken

* Local finding the idea of learning it laughable

* Teachers telling me to my very face (two of them) that 'we can't teach them native Irish, because that is not what thye expect'

* Teachers unable to follow natives

* Learners in the top level with brutal bad Irish been commended for how good it was (by teachers and natives alike)

* Speaking with no native conjunctions (bar 'agus') -mostly 'like' and 'like yunno' etc


It was a ghastly situation. Like all these years and the Irish organisations don't have their own facilities in the Gaeltacht. Everything is so amateurish -and you think those clowns are the future of the language? They're all retards.

The only future is outside of Ireland where a community can create enough localized positive prejudice. In Ireland, if there were enough Gaeltachtaí -nua set up the government would intervene via the school or the Church (probable avenue dept of education) and frustrate much of the work. Complain? Jail. In jail no work, family loses money. Think about what a serious revival would entail.

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The Irish language is in a state of evolution, as it shall remain until the day it dies...

You are woefully wrong, and all linguists of the world don't agree with you. On your definition such phenomenon as "language decay" does not exist at all: the language "evolves" until it is dead? This is very funny way of looking at things. The very concept of "evolution" presumes continuation of the thing evolving, and there is no "continuation" if the language is dead. Simple as that.

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are you saying that now even native-driven change is invalid?

If the so called "natives" are bilingual and slip the expressions from other language they also speak day-to-day, what is so "native" about it? Just because teenagers in Conamara say 'f*ck' or 'deadly' say every second word - does it mean that Irish has a new grammar: you have to insert 'deadly' every second word? Don't be ridiculous!

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And we have a huge corpus of pristine english recorded prior to the coming of the Normans and all their Romance influence.

Did English die out as community language after Normans came? Do English people have difficulty expressing themselves in any concept beyond turf, cows and fish? English is a healthy language, and people make business through it. Irish is a sick language, and even "natives" don't know how to write loan application in Irish. Your comparison is as inadequate as always.

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While I don't personally agree with the "native only" yardstick for change validity

That is your personal issue

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I favor a "majority" yardstick...no longer are most of the speakers natives

So, let's go forth and multiply learners' mistakes? Can you name at least ONE language where a language norm is set by learners who have learned the language badly?

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I'm sorry, but attempts to freeze "valid" Irish in the 19th century (or even early 20th) are one of the main things that frustrates its revival

The main thing that frustrates the revival is the general laziness and indifference of Irish people. The issues of lenition or idioms have the least to do with it. The ultimate demise of the language is directly caused by "let-the-neighbour-save-the-language-but-not-me" attitude.

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The ultimate demise of the language is directly caused by "let-the-neighbour-save-the-language-but-not-me" attitude.

Is fíor dhuit, faraor!

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Can you name at least ONE language where a language norm is set by learners who have learned the language badly?

These would be Creole languages, for example Haitian Creole instead of French.

That would mean a relexification of English with Irish words and a mixed simplified grammar.

They can become new respectable languages out of necessity (Afrikaans), but in Irish such a melange would not be attractive for any learner. How could it gain prestige against English?

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They say things that are not in Standard French, that's all.

Propose to a metropolitan French to learn Creole French as an enlightening sample!

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Can you name at least ONE language where a language norm is set by learners who have learned the language badly?

These would be Creole languages, for example Haitian Creole instead of French.

Yes, and that language is called Creole and nobody says it's French. Same stuff with Irish: if non-native speakers develop a Creole of their own, we'll call it Creole, and not Irish.

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quote:They say things that are not in Standard French, that's all.
Propose to a metropolitan French to learn Creole French as an enlightening sample!

What do you call Creole French?


By the way, I totally agree with Róman.

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What do you call Creole French?

I meant creoles derived from French, for example "Louisana Creole French".

Nothing against them, but my point was, you don't take it as an model for innovations in the more prestigious source language.

"Creole French" is not French, it is different language altogether. Misnomer does not make it a legitimate variety of the same language, it is a separate independent language, just as Swiss German is no more German than Dutch is.

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Swiss German is no more German than Dutch is.

It is German.
Swiss German is quite easy to understand for a native speaker of Standard German, Dutch isn't.
By the way: There's no Swiss German but a number of Low, High, and Highest Alemannic dialects.

Lars

Swiss German is quite easy to understand for a native speaker of Standard German, Dutch isn't.

Beg to differ with that. I'm not a native speaker, but I did use to live in a university town about half-an-hour from the Swiss border and I witnessed native speakers of German have difficulty with Swiss accents, let alone full-fledged dialect. What's more, programmes from German-speaking Switzerland were often subtitled for broadcast on German television. Again, the speakers weren't even speaking Swiss-German, only Swiss-accented Standard German.

Just recently, I had an exchange (uff Alemannisch) with a speaker of Vorarlbergisch (a High Alemannic variety, although native to Austria). She expressed incredulity that I could understand her given that even other Austrians (who natively spoke varieties of South and Middle Bavarian) had great difficulty with it.

So even though I disagree with almost everything else Róman has said in this thread, I think his analogy stands.

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Swiss German is quite easy to understand for a native speaker of Standard German

No, it is not, otherwise they wouldn't subtitle Swiss films on German Tv. The situation in Switzerland is generally termed as diglossia, meaning we are dealing with 2 languages. It is a different situation for people living in the south of Baden-Wuertenberg, but 1) their own idiom hardly is "Standard German", 2) they are exposed to Swiss TV. I could also make such unqualified statement that for natives of Hamburg Dutch is much easier to understand than Swiss German.

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There's no Swiss German but a number of Low, High, and Highest Alemannic dialects.

All of them are labelled with umbrella-term Switzertuetsch. And yes, there a "standard" Swiss German used as koine in Switzerland - it is the dialect of Zuerich.

Ní féidir liomsa ach labhairt faoi mo chuid taithí féin maidir leis an Ollainis agus leis an Gearmáinis Eilvéiseach. Dála an scéil: Tá "Plattdeutsch" agam.

Lars

Dos hättsi bloß am afang sottä gsait, Lars, assä nua fia sich ällai rädä, dann hätti halt kai iiwand ärhäwä!