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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (March- April) » Archive through March 26, 2008 » Genitive « Previous Next »

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is the genitve case being lost in all world languages, Im sure it seems a like a broad sweeping statement, but I've heard that it's being lost in German.
I know it exists in all languages (i think) however only some languages actually change the noun that is affected by the genitive. It is these languages that I refer to.

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I heard that the genitive case is fading away in the Gaeltacht slowly, and for all other languages if its being lost all I can say is that its pure laziness.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Domhnall Liaim Liaim (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 01:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Short answer: No. Ethnologue.org lists nearly 7,000 living languages belonging to over 100 separate families. You can't seriously expect to make an intelligent generalisation about them all based on data points from two closely-related tongues spoken in the same tiny corner of Eurasia.

You also can't ascribe the loss of the genitive in colloquial German to "laziness". Cases are gained and lost over time in the same way that any other linguistic feature is. It's all part of the natural process of language change.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 216
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 02:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I've heard that it's being lost in German.


It's lost in a lot of dialects and in very (!) colloquial speech influenced by dialects but not in Standard German. There it is still alive.
Not to use genitive in proper situations is considered false and uneducated, e.g. [kind of] dative of possession "dem Mann sein Bier" instead of genitive "des Mannes Bier" (= beoir an fhir). Only the last ist considered "good" German.
Genitive even gains ground after some prepositions (perhaps a kind of hypercorrection), e.g. "trotz des Mannes" though it was originally dative "trotz dem Mann(e)" ( = d'ainneoin an fhir).

Lars

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 05:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lars seems to like the "Saxon genitiv": "des Mannes Bier", which is correct German, but a little stilted.
The standard expression would be "das Bier des Mannes" and yes, we Germans use this case still, at least in educated Standard German.

And e.g. in the Slavic languages, the genitiv is very strong (lots ofprepositions require it) and wins a stronghold against the dative.

After dropping the dative in the 20th century, I hope Irish will not continue in the 21th with the genitive. I personally like caserich languages

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 445
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 09:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"After dropping the dative in the 20th century, I hope Irish will not continue in the 21th with the genitive. I personally like caserich languages"

You seem to contradict yourself, do you want it to have or have not the genitive?

le díol

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1201
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think Ingeborg means "I hope Irish will not continue [dropping cases] in the 21st century."

Irish dropping the genitive would not surprise me, as most of those who are counting themselves speakers learned english first, and all those who learned Irish first are bombarded with english 24 hours a day.

Or, it may split the difference and survive in limited instances in a simplified form, stripped of irregular formations

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6847
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 07:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bímse i'm chodladh ar feadh 8 n-uaire ar a laghad...



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