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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2008 (March- April) » Archive through April 15, 2008 » Rosetta Stone As Gaeilge! « Previous Next »

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Alaois
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Username: Alaois

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 04:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Táim ag foghlaim as gaeilge sa Daingin ui Chuis (Dingle), sa Diseart Institute. Agus I have it on reliable sources that Rosetta Stone is set to come out with an Irish course this spring... how reliable? Last year, their voices were recorded for it.

Ta sé Rosetta Stone an seift maith ar stadair na teangacha.

I am very excited and will probably get a first look at the software when it comes out, as my program director here was recorded for it so he'll be getting an advanced copy.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 375
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 06:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, they're planning an Irish release. I contacted them recently to see when it would be available and it was still up in the air. Also, the representative was not able to say which dialect it would be recorded in. So we'll see!

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Alaois
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Username: Alaois

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 08:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

everyone I know that was recorded for it is from West Kerry, so I assume it will be Munster Irish.

My Program Director, one of the voices recorded, said it is supposed to come out some time really soon, like mid-March or mid-April... or at least he's supposed to get a copy of it then (don't know if it'll be an advanced copy or if it's to be released at that time)

(Message edited by alaois on March 16, 2008)

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 159
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 02:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Wow, that's GREAT news for learners of Munster Irish!

Thanks for letting us know

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 02:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Around two years ago I gave Rosetta Stone a ring and asked them if they had Irish and they were very ignorant they said there is no such language as Irish was very annoyed about them after that.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 03:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

My understanding is that their official answer is that the Irish language was "too political" and was avoided by them for this reason.

Someone had gotten in contact with them and posted on this forum to that effect

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 58.108.31.9
Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 08:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A nicely worded apology along with the new Irish course might be the way for 'Rosetta Stone' to go if what i have read above is accurate.

Seanfhear

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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 422
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 08:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm told by someone who has 2 or 3 of them they are the same for everysingle language

le díol

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1195
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 02:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I keep checking the site...if anyone sees that it's finally for sale, post a message on the forum, le bhur dtoil...

Also, for those who have been in on the gossip...will it just be Irish I, or I, II, and III? If just I, is there any statement saying that they will definitely not pursue it further (like Pimsleur said after adding lessons 9 and 10)?

I have been waiting YEARS for them to do this...I'm so excited...

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 160
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 02:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I just got off the phone with the folks at Rosetta Stone and they said that it's gonna be Irish I, II, and III. They said that it will be out "in a couple of weeks".

It looks like now there is a real chance for all of us who are trying to learn Irish on our own to actually become fluent

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 426
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 10:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah, lads, I think they only teach the progressive and thats all, form what I hear.

le díol

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1196
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 11:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Has anyone used this software for other langauges? I have never read anything negative about their method. Different versions say they have between 250 and 550 hours of lessons. That's a pretty extensive base even if it's nothing but vocabulary building (which it's not).

No matter, I'm ordering it the week it's released.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 161
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 12:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yikes! I sure hope that they teach more than just the progressive tense.

Rosetta Stone gets rave reviews from almost everyone on Amazon so I'm going to give it a go.

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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 427
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 01:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'll ask my friend again. He said he had 2 or 3 different ones for different languages and they used the same approach and pictures, so I hope this one is different!

le díol

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Trigger
Member
Username: Trigger

Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 06:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

550 hours of lessons?

I'm getting it most defiantly!

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 376
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 04:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You can pre-order it today and it'll ship to you the very day it's released.

Also, you can preview the software on their site: they let you download a sample for every language on offer.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1197
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 09:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

My understanding is that it's all the same content, just varies for vocabulary and grammar points (it would have to). However, I've seen Spanish 1, 2, 3 listed as 550 hours but Arabic 1, 2, 3 at 330 hours...if they're all the same, they should be the same (or close to the same) length. Dunno...but worth it in any case even if it's just as a good vocab builder (which is my weak point).

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Trigger
Member
Username: Trigger

Post Number: 40
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 08:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is Rossetta Stone very good, would it be worth the money?

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 377
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 11:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Best way to find out is to download the samples from their website. It won't be for everybody.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 631
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Do chonac é seo inniubh:

"ROSETTA STONE IRISH LEVEL 1 & 2 HOMESCHOOL SET"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180226697685

(Chím "Gaeilge" ar an mbosca)

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 448
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That's a very high price!

le díol

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 696
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah, divide it by four or so kids and it's not so bad...
(Homeschool families tend to run large, at least where I'm from.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1202
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 01:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

here's the full 3 vol set
http://www.rosettastone.com/personal/languages/irish/level-1-2-3

each one runs over $200, so if you buy all three together it's like getting the first one free.

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Kathy
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Username: Kathy

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 06:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

...and you'll get $50 off if you write Irish in the promotional code box. (That just about covers tax and shipping where I live!)

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1204
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 09:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Just ordered my this afternoon...can't wait...

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William P. Mac Aindriú (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 68.38.124.75
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 12:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Where do you put prefix Óg in a person name, after the first name or after the surname?

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1208
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 10:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Alright, so I ordered it the day it became available and got two-day shipping. I've been tinkering with it a bit on the regular settings and I'm happy with it so far. Good for building vocab and new constructions. Whether or not everything is Tá+vn remains to be seen, but I like the approach.

I finished the first two lessons in unit 1 (basic for me, but still I've picked up a few new vocab words). I just upped the pronunciation sensitivity from "normal" to "difficult" (they have "easy" "normal" "medium" "expert" and "difficult" as well as a "custom" setting). I haven't played with that yet, I'll have to report back on it.

It also allows for multiple users to be set up, so I created a user for my mother as well. She's made a couple attempts at learning some Irish but never got past lesson 2 of Pimsleur or lesson 10 of Buntús. She's forgotten almost everything she once knew save some common phrases I use a lot. I'll also report back on her progress, once she makes some (hasn't had time to play with it yet).

You know, for how expensive the full package is, it might not be a bad idea for those who want to try it but can't afford the software to buy the 3 month subscription for $100. It allows access to all three volumes ($500 retail software) and according to how I read the site is the same course save you owning the cds. If anyone goes that route, be sure to let us know how it goes.

Anyone else have the software? Thoughts? This is a major purchase for someone, so the more information we can get out there may make people more comfortable with the investment.

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 222
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hello...

I was the one who wrote Rosetta about a year ago and received the reply that they had talked about creating an Irish program, however, were not expecting to because they have certain policies that stop them from doing so. They avoid certain languages that have serious political issues.

I was going to question it, until I saw that they are going to be leaning more on the Munster side of things. They have an endangered languages program that can be used to loop hole their policies ;-)

I also have the Welsh and Russian program.

Yes, sadly they use the same photos and structure for every single language program.

Their courses vary in the number of hours based on which program you buy...personal, homeschool, and they have another for schools, military, and government agencies.

There are some real pros and cons with this program.

Let's get the bad out of the way...

1) It is rather expensive. I recommend that you buy the Personal verison if have to buy it. The homeschool says it has more hours of instruction, but if you talk to the people at Rosetta they say that they actually cover the same abmount of material...the real difference is the ability to manage and monitor different accounts.

2) It will be completely in Irish. (Don't expect English)

3) They show grammar through examples but don't tell you the grammar concept. For the most part, it is pretty simple to look at the photo and figure it out.

4) They did choose to use Muster speakers. They felt that they should choose the dialect they felt resembled the Standard more...remember...they are business types not linguists or Irish speakers.

There are a few others, but I do not want to concentrate on the bad because I believe this is really a great thing for them and the Irish language. I am very excited for it also.

NOW THE GOOD THINGS I HAVE SEEN WITH THIS PROGRAM

1) First IT'S IRISH!!!

2) There is another great resource out there for Irish.

3) It is an easy program to use.

4) There is a massive photo database to support words and grammar.

5) There is a good coverage of vocabulary and grammar. But remember it helps to know a little bit going into. I say this because the program itself will not explain it. Some courses like Spanish and French have written material to help explain grammar, but I do not think they will go through this much effor for Irish.

6) But the real strength of this course is that everything will be spoken.

7) It has a feature that allows you to record your voice and see it compared to a native speaker's. I don't personally like this feature, because even though my example doesn't match up with my Russian program, my Russian professor said my pronunciation was ideal...so don't let that get you down.

8) With each version they play around with the writing portion of the program. In my Welsh version...you drag and clicked words into sentences while in my Russian verion you have to actually type with the keyboard. I am curious to see what they do with it.

All and all, it is a great program. I didn't care for my Russian version because I really needed someone to help explain the grammar...but I love my Welsh version.

I know other people who have bought other languages and I think they also fairly satisfied. I think it is say that it gets at least of 7 out of 10!

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 01, 2008)

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1185
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 03:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine can you type up a couple of sentences from the first unit just to get a feel what kind of grammar they present there? The logic "they wanted standard - so they went for Munster" is strange to me, to say the least. Standard (at least in its grammar) is 99% Conacht, Munster is prominent only as far as the vocabulary goes. Thus - can we see some examples please?

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 223
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 07:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What I mean is that the reason they did not create a program earlier was that they felt Irish was a political language due to the "never ending" dialect wars. They tried twice to make a program. The first time, they asked the Irish government for help and support, but the government said no. The second time, they asked the major universities for help, but they got fed up because Ireland's best couldn't agree on things.

Their policies avoid creating products that are going to create nothing but trouble for them. The only outlet I can think of that would allow such a thing is if they used the Endangered Language program and created a dialect specific course. This could explain the lean towards Munster which I have heard seems to be happening. Or...Rosetta decided to use Munster because they felt that it would be the dialect that most directly correlated with Standard Irish.

Since Antaine actually has it he can confirm it for me but normally the programs are broken down like this:

There are three levels (1,2,3). Each level will consist of 8-10 main units with 10-12 levels of instruction.

Usually there will be 10 photos each lesson with the material on it. With each lesson you have the ability to practice all the four areas...reading, writing, speaking, and understanding.

The first unit looks like this:

1-1:

They always teach the words for boy, girl, man, woman, elephant, plane, horse, cat, dog, car, and ball.

Then they will show you different combinations of the these words like "a man and a boy," "a cat and a car."

They also like to throw in some preposition like "on" and under." They will say "a ball under a ball" "a boy on a horse." "A man in a plane."

And that's it...remember that they are trying to introduce Irish at this stage it is going to be vocabulary and pronunciation at his point. But they do show a little grammar in there without telling you.

1-2:

Here they are going to start introducing verbs and articles.

They will show you "the boy is jumping" the girls are running"

They also introduce some new vocabulary like "fish, bull, bird, to dance, to jump, to run, to walk...and so forth.

1-3:

They will start to introduce adjectives.

They will show you "the bird is red" "the house is new."

It isn't long before they have you saying full sentences.

And this is how the program goes. There are a few things that have to be said for Rosetta. There are some people who do not like this program because of the method they use to introduce the material. For instance, they do not teach all the verb forms right away. For example...in the first level, they concentrate on "he, she, it, and they".

You don't really get into "I, you, we" until later in the program.

But you have to remember the aim of this program. You are not going to come out of this program...well, at least level 1 with a great fluency of Irish.

What you are going to get it is a basic workable vocabulary and a wonderful confidence with the language.

I honestly believe that given a little time, people will say that this is one of the best intro courses out there for the language. But remember that it is definitely an intro course. They have levels 1, 2, and 3...but that doesn't mean beginner, intermediate, and advanced Irish. I think it is more accurate to think of them as beginner levels 1, 2, and 3. Its design is to expose you to language and prepare you for further study.

However, I should warn you that this is definitely not like most Irish programs out there that only give you the colors, numbers, and some basic words...this is not one of those programs. You are going to be surprised what it covers. But it does help having a little grammar already or a little Irish already. I highly recommend a grammar book by your side.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 01, 2008)

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1209
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 01:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The structure is like this:

Three levels,

Each level includes four "core lessons" in which new material is introduced. They then have ever increasing numbers of specific target lessons that follow until the next core (vocabulary, pronunciation, spelling, etc).

In the beginning of a new set of vocab you drag and drop written and spoken phrases to match pictures. They then have you match using spoken alone. There are also ones where you see the picture, see the words, hear it and say it back. It then tells you if you're right (and *how* close you are). If the little bar registers what seems to be 90% accuracy on your attempt you move on to the next question. If not, it asks you to continue repeating it until you get it.

The method for remembering seems to be the same basis as Pimsleur - repetition and context. The difference is that now you have visual cues, and it tests your speaking and memory ability (whereas with Pimsleur you are on the honor system to grade yourself).

The object is to get the words and concepts ingrained in the student's brain directly related to a visual example so that you don't "decode" the image or question into english and then translate it into Irish...they hope that when you see the picture of the apple you don't think, "apple...now what is that in Irish?" but rather "an t-úll" simply conjures the image of the apple and vice-versa.

The spelling and grammar are CO, the native speakers doing the pronunciation are all Munster. There's a standard, so of course they'll use it, and it only makes sense for beginners to have all their examples in the same dialect (whichever one gets chosen). I would imagine it is the same situation for all their languages.

The examples given differ from the Irish program in some specific content, but that's the general gist. You do some multiple choice word selection as well as typing for the written exercieses (both types of questions exist). You absorb grammar and are able to build your own unique sentences with the vocab in a way similar to Buntús Cainte. Actually, I would say that RS is very much like a graded Buntús Cainte meets Pimsleur with interactive oral and written components added for effectiveness.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 163
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 04:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine,

Do they use synthetic forms at all?
(Táim or Tá mé; Do Bhíos or Bhí mé?)

Is the stress on the 1st syllable or on the 2nd syllable
on a word where there is a síneadh fada on the 2nd
syllable (like cupán or cailín)?

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 04:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

When they use cailín, they pronounce it kollEEN. So far they've introduced tá with he/she/they and the man/woman/boy/girl/men/women/boys/girls/child/children/adult/adults

No "me" or "we" yet, so I can't vouch for synthetic forms.

The narrators are supposed to be native speakers, so the pronunciation should be accurate in at least one authentic dialect, even if the written portions are all CO.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 224
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 05:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

They won't get to "I, we," until late in the game. I am trying to remember, it might even be in level 2.

Their format has changed a little, but not the general structure of their courses...which is the same for every language

As I said...this is one of the complaints people make against the program.

LOL...and people on TG4 are supposed to be native speakers also, but I hear unique pronounciations all the time. I guess it just goes to show that there is no such thing as "a correct way" to say something.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 01, 2008)

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1211
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 05:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Walk up and down the streets in my town and talk to people in english. They don't all say the same things in the same way.

Actually, I think using the same format is brilliant. Especially when you consider the goal of the instruction is to get you talking in everyday situations; ostensibly, those situations would be the same (or similar) in any region. By using stock situations and stock pictures from all represented regions, they say, "this language is a relevent tool for everyone who wants it, not just the people who live in X."

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 10:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It seems to me like Rosetta Stone is worth a try so I went ahead and ordered Levels 1, 2, and 3 just now.

hmm ... Come to think of it, ANYTHING that helps me to learn Irish is definitely worth a try.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1212
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 11:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I checked out the last few lessons of level 3 and I could only understand 1/4 to 1/3 of what was being said, so I figure that must mean it's about right for me.

I'd recommend following RS with Progress in Irish. It'll introduce more vocab and have you building sentences the RS way off the bat...then you can start conjugating different verbs in different tenses, but I defo recommend RS in order to get a leg up on studying if you're new to the language (ie, have trouble conversing more often than you'd like).

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2327
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 09:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The narrators are supposed to be native speakers, so the pronunciation should be accurate in at least one authentic dialect, even if the written portions are all CO.



First of all, all people who claim they are native speakers are not always native speakers (and the native speakers who have been raised up through Irish by learners don't speak as well as Gaeltacht native speakers, most of the time).

Second: I wonder how pronunciation can be accurate if the speakers are asked to pronounce stuff that doesn't exist in their dialect. I mean, if you ask a Dunquin speaker to pronounce "ní dheachaigh mé" (they say "níor chuas"), or a Donegal speaker to pronounce "conas atá tú?" (we say "dé mar atá tú?") his pronunciation will never be more than "the way I would pronounce that if it had existed in my dialect". So: an invented pronunciation.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1214
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 10:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Alaois, who started this thread, claimed to have met at least some of those recorded for the program. He can speak more accurately to their specific abilities. Other than that, RS is in the business of seeking out native speakers for their recordings...is it possible a fluent non-native speaker was thrown in the mix? Of course, anything is possible, but there's no use speculating until you've either reviewed it or at least have information on the background of those recorded.

Alaois? Can you speak to this?

As for pronouncing things not found in their dialect...they're still literate! Even if a word or phrase is not the one they would naturally pick for that situation, they can still read the word...process the phonemes according to their native dialect's pronunciation.

One of the strengths of RS is that they don't bog down the student with multiple variations on every theme. The spelling is standard and the pronunciation is consistent within a single dialect. That's what a student needs to get themselves started. When learning aids are made for english they do not represent every dialect in phrase or sound. Typically they will be in either American Standard or uk standard in spelling, grammar and pronunciation. You'd be hard pressed to find anything that even takes account of both US and uk ways of doing things geared for the beginner.

Learning a new language is hard enough...it's best to save all the "but they do it this way, and they do it that way, and these other guys have a third take on it..." until they at least get the basics straight.

I mean, could you imagine if your first english lesson went "well, in the uk they say 'ello, but in the US the standard is Hello, unless you're in New York or New Jersey, where 'Sup is the most common. In New England, however, they say...?"

Gimmie a break...they'll print "Hello," pronounce it in one standard dialect and leave it at that. Unfortunately, most Irish lessons are not so expedient, mostly due to the kicking and screaming that would take place for failing to represent one dialect or another...

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 225
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 10:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I must confess that I owe Rosetta Stone an apology. My copy of the Irish 1,2, and 3 came in the mail today and it is really nothing like the older versions of their programs...

So I will say "that I was wrong about this one."

In fact this version puts their earlier Welsh and Russian programs to shame. They have really made some vast improvements to their software. I think this course deserves a 10 for what they have done.

I really enjoy it and I am happy to see that they incorporated that speak to me function in their program. Up until this time the only software I knew of that did this was Instant Immersion Deluxe.

I have been playing with it most of the day now and I can honestly say that this is a must for Irish learning. If you are serious about learning...I would definitely go for this.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1215
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 11:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As an update on particulars

in unit 3:

selected lessons from units 1 and 2 are reapeated
synthetic forms (Táim, táimid) are used
simple statements using the copula are introduced
colors are introduced

more is made of
gender
prepositional pronouns (ag, ar, ó)
possession
plurals of various formation (úlla, cailíní, rothair)

stress is added to the second syllable where I expected it on the first in three instances only
An nGealach
Múinteoir
agam/agat/againn/acu (although I have heard these both ways before)

I'm half-way through unit 3, unit 4 finishes Level 1.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 165
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine,
Thanks for the update on Rosetta Stone. If all goes well, mine will get here by Friday (or Saturday at the latest). The price is a little steep but, based on what you and Do Chinniúint have been saying, I'm sure that it is money well spent.

Wow, this is very exciting - I'm rarin' to go!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1204
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 03:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

all people who claim they are native speakers are not always native speakers



That is so true. I have noticed an immense confusion in Ireland regarding this topic. Some people think that the virtue of having Irish passport makes them native speakers. Any suggestion otherwise is deemed as insult and accusation of being not patriotic.

quote:

mean, if you ask a Dunquin speaker to pronounce "ní dheachaigh mé" (they say "níor chuas")



They say "ní dheaghas"

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1216
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

" mean, if you ask a Dunquin speaker to pronounce "ní dheachaigh mé" (they say "níor chuas")



They say "ní dheaghas""


Right, but they'd still be able to pronounce the word "dheachaigh"if they saw it in print...the "aigh" might sound different than the area where "ní dheachaigh mé" is used as a matter of preference, but it would be consistent with the phoneme "aigh" in the dialect of the reader and therefore "legitimate" even by the "native only" yardstick.

Phrases indicative to one dialect are not sacrosanct with but one possible way of pronouncing them...so it won't be an "invented" pronunciation. An Ohio speaker will have a legitimate, native-english-speaker pronunciation of "soda" even though he's more likely to say "pop" himself. He mightn't say it the way we do in Jersey, but that doesn't matter, if Ohio is the unified dialect for the learning materials, and soda is the more common (or "standard") word, then soda with an Ohio accent it is!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6898
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm not sure you are correct here, Antaine.

There is a difficulty with gaeltacht speakers reading caighdeán irish - they will try to pronounce it in a way similar to the proposed lár chanúint, and it will sound stilted and unnatural.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 226
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 03:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

LOL

Not to stir the pot so to speak, but is it any less "stilted and unnatural" to hear anyone else in Ireland pronounce Irish who speaks a little more English than most the people here would like them to be speaking? ;-)

I have been writing and speaking on and off with a pen pal from Dublin. I know she will probably kill me next time we meet for this comment, but she was one of those top of the class types in school. Her written Irish is out of this world! But to hear her speak it, well lets just say that it is a little amusing to listen to. She knows the words, and she can rattle them off with ease...

But I am an American, and even from the outside looking in and I can tell that it isn't natural for her to speak Irish because of the way she speaks the language. I can't describe it, maybe there are some here that can relate to what I am saying, but there is something in her voice that says her spirit and her mouth aren't exactly working with each other the way they should be. ;-)

Correct or incorrect, one of the things that Rosetta Stone has done has brought a little stability to the learner by having some 4 or 6 speakers equally male and female of various ages with the same attack on the pronounciation. Some of the other courses out there want you to experience all dialects at once, but this can cause a little confusion in some people.

Now I know that there are going to people, especially more salty Irish speakers, who are going to say, "What? That's not correct. Why on Earth are they saying it that way!"

But then, these are often the same people who say "Oh don't worry about the differences, the main thing is to be speaking Irish...LOL"

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1217
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 03:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That would be something that would need to be handled when the speakers are told what they need to do for their role in the program.

While there are undoubtedly many peoiple who would do precisely that, they don't *have* to. My point is that if they are asked to read "Ba mhaith liom" and pronounce the mh as a V instead of a W in keeping with the standard pronunciation rule, it is still a legitimately acceptable pronunciation (it is how they do it as a matter of course).

Rinne is standard, but they will naturally use dhéan...hence they will pronounce "rinne" differently than any of the places where "rinne" is actually used, but it's an authentic pronunciation of a standard word.

Likewise, the standard rule dictates that stress goes on the first syllable if there are no fadas, and even the phonetics in the seanfhocail on this site show a first syllable stress for "agat" - yet some place the stress on the second. Both are legitmate, despite one being "nonstandard."

My point was, such arguments are splitting hairs too finely for the purpose of the software - introducing non-speakers to the langauge in an efficient, fun, digestible way. Students should get far more Irish than in RS - or any one book at all - before they begin to worry about such matters.

In all honesty, such things only become important once one decides to spend an extended period of time (like a summer) in the gaeltacht speaking only Irish. Short of that, most learners only have the chance to speak it in class or infrequently to people who are mostly learners themselves. I, for one, deal with Irish mostly by writing and reading. Even when I have the time and money for classes, the native speakers are few and far between.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1206
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

An Ohio speaker will have a legitimate, native-english-speaker pronunciation of "soda" even though he's more likely to say "pop"



You are again confusing an issue of having different vocabularies and having different pronunciation. While it is totally possible for an American to utter "pavement" (although he might prefer to say "sidewalk" himself), it is a completely different matter to try to speak like Queen Victoria was speaking. "deachaigh" and "deaghas" are not two different words - it is the same word in different dialect like "Buston" and "Bahston" and it is really difficult for a person to speak with an unnatural, strange accent unless he is trained to do so.

quote:

There is a difficulty with gaeltacht speakers reading caighdeán irish - they will try to pronounce it in a way similar to the proposed lár chanúint



You are right spot-on on that, Aonghas. Or even worse - they try to pronounce it the way they think it is proposed in lárchanúint. That is the reason tapes for TYI (Ó Sé) are so horrible.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1207
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 04:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

if they are asked to read "Ba mhaith liom" and pronounce the mh as a V instead of a W in keeping with the standard pronunciation rule



I am sorry, did I miss something? What do you refer to saying "standard pronunciation rule"? Lárchanúint (being closest to some ephemerical thing called "standard pronunciation") was quitely dropped to my best knowledge, at least no-one ever bothers to follow it in the media. And anyone what kind of non-sensical rule that is? [v] and [w] are not contrasting phones in Irish and never were, the same speaker cand mingle them at will.

quote:

the standard rule dictates that stress goes on the first syllable if there are no fadas



Agam, agat ... being a clear exception.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1218
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 04:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Every pronunciation rule I have ever read in any guide states that mh and bh make a W sound with broad vowels and V sound with slender. Munster simply uses the V with both.

As for pavement, excellent example. But they are not being asked to do the equivalent of an American trying to speak like Queen Victoria, they are simply being asked to pronounce the word as it would be pronounced in their own dialect (even though they wouldn't use it themselves). Just read the phonemes as you see 'em, and anything any native speaker comes up with is just as legit as any other.

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 05:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

[v] and [w] are not contrasting phones in Irish and never were



You mean "mo bhó" and "mo bheo" are no minimal pairs and both [mə wo:] and [mə vo:] means "my cow" and "my life"!

Surprise! I am amazed.

In my copy of "The Irish of Tourmakeady" by De Búrca these are different phonemes and in every textbook and phonetical discription of Irish also! Is this an artificial differentiation?

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1208
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 05:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Every pronunciation rule I have ever read in any guide states that mh and bh make a W sound with broad vowels and V sound with slender.



Surprise, surprise welcome to the warped world of Irish tutorials written by English speakers for English speakers. If you were to study any serious Irish phonology book you would see it is a made-up rubbish, not "a rule".

quote:

Munster simply uses the V with both.



You are wrong on that. The broad /v/ phoneme is realized as both [v] and [w] in Munster with no appreciable difference for a Munster speaker. In facts, the words like "bhfuil" almost always have [w] in Munster.

quote:

they are simply being asked to pronounce the word as it would be pronounced in their own dialect



And if the word does not exist in exactly the same form? I cannot make myself say "racha" [rAx@] or whatever it is in CO, it just makes me cringe as I am used to raghad[reid]. Even when I read caighdeán texts I substitute all "racha's" for ragh- forms, so if somebody made me actually to say "racha" it does not take too much imagination to understand I will stutter on this word in the best case scenario, or even stump.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1209
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 05:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

You mean "mo bhó" and "mo bheo" are no minimal pairs and both [mə wo:] and [mə vo:] means "my cow" and "my life"!



Who told you such seafóid? The difference of bhó and bheó is the difference of broad /v/ and slender /v`/, not of /v/ vs /w/. What you have written above is simply wrong. Both slender /v'/ and broad /v/ can be realized as slender/broad [v] and [w] with no difference.

quote:

In my copy of "The Irish of Tourmakeady" by De Búrca these are different phonemes



In that case your copy of de Búrca has been compromised, 'cause in my de Búrca (Irish of Tourmakeady) p. 28 speaks about /v'/ (note the dash above!) which is described as "a voiced palatalized labio-dental fricative". .i. a [v'].

On the page 29 /v/ is described as "lip rounded bilabial semivowel", .i. [w] or "voiced bilabial with slight friction" or "with secondary labio-dental friction", .i. [v].

Thus, the contrast of /v/ vs /v'/ is a contrast of palatalization, not of being [v] vs [w]!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 25
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 05:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

If you were to study any serious Irish phonology book



Is the "Irish of ..." series non serious? (nice pun, isn't it?)
In the Munster version of West Muskerry p. 113 [w] and [v] are allophones, but in the one of Tourmakeady p. 124f not. I did not take the whole series from the library, so I cannot compare all dialects.

Which are the serious ones then? Whom to rely on?

PS: I had not yet seen the previous post. I have to ponder it first.

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 03, 2008)

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1212
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 06:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ingeborga, could you, please, quote the passage from de Búrca you were referring to? I quoted the same de Búrca to a different result. It seems to me you have missed the palatalized part altogether, thus chasing allophones you lost the phonemes!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 06:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

bhó vs bheo contrast is the same as in Russian вол (an ox) vs вёл (he lead)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 26
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 06:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, Róman, you are right! To equate v and v' with [w] and [v] was an error of mine. But a widspread. I had read it in too many textbooks beforehand to read properly.
Now Irish pronunciation has again proven to be still more different from my Germanic standpoint.

Moral: Don't simply equate phonemes of different languages.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1214
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 06:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

But a widspread



as widespread as the advice to pronouce "Dia dhuit" as "jee-a gwitch", so life is tough

quote:

Now Irish pronunciation has again proven to be still more different from my Germanic standpoint.



Well, if you have good Russian pronunciation - it should be rather easy. I had only problems with velarized velars, until I understood how to pronounce them correctly. So embarrassing not being able to say even "Gaelainn" correctly!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 27
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Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 07:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, my Russian pronuciation is not that good. I always pronounce вёл as [vjol] as if it would be въёл, and my Georgian teacher was never satisfied and said it were more like a German ö, but "völ" is more terrible still.
But it's good advice. Thanks.

By the way, why do you lenite dhuit in Dia dhuit? Is it afixed expression? In the dictionary you have Dia duit, but in texts I have seen the lenited version more often.

PS. I also hate these anglicized phonetic script à la "jee-a gwitch". It always confuses me. But not everyone (not every learner is an academic) knows IPA.

Just now my net connection broke down, so I am not sure, if I am able to write much further this night.

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 03, 2008)

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1219
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Indeed you are correct on bhfuil, I hadn't accounted for it. I was thinking in terms of mhaith in Munster being "vaah" instead of "waah" and bhuachall being "VOOkull" instead of "WOOkull."

The fact that you would stumble over saying the word is a personal statement - and while that statement may be true for many people besides yourself, it should by no means be considered a universal truth that applies to all speakers equally (or at all).

You wouldn't be asked to do a cold reading, you'd have time to read the script and know what words were in there so nothing would take you by surprise. You'd look at the word, make the best sense of it you can knowing what you do about pronunciation from your own dialect.

And you know what? It doesn't even matter. If you were a native speaker, whatever you, as a native speaker, seriously arrive at when reading the phonemes of the word in your own language (even if not your own dialect) is a legit pronunciation of that word in your dialect.

This kind of pedantic and devisive argument is precisely what has frustrated efforts of students to learn, efforts of those developing materials to produce a unified approach that makes sense to the student, and stalled the Rosetta Stone project as long as it did.

They did precisely what a good materials developer is supposed to do with a language - they picked one dialect and ran with it. When it came to spelling they deferred to the standard. That is what every successful introductory language course does. I have never seen a language community so utterly wrapped up in and stymied by the issue of dialect as Irish!

It's not that dialect discussion and analysis do not belong in the discourse of the global Gaeilge community, but they don't belong in a students introduction to the language beyond mention of their existence and the note that sometimes pronunciation and phrases differ between them (which is to be expected with any language). Specifics and multitudinous examples and counter-examples in that context are inappropriate and serve only to push desperately needed (there, I said it) students away.

I, for one, am going to limit my future comments in the thread to the content of the program as I do each new unit.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 397
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 11:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

the standard rule dictates that stress goes on the first syllable if there are no fadas.

Agam, agat ... being a clear exception.


Where is this a clear exception? Everywhere, or in certain areas only?

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_Aireachtaigh on April 03, 2008)

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 166
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 12:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Last summer, I spent a couple of weeks in Corca Dhuibhne (Kerry) and two days in Múscraí (Cork) and as far as I could tell, EVERYONE in those two areas puts the stress on the final syllable of agam, agat, aige, etc.

I don't have any first-hand knowledge of anywhere else in Ireland but I suspect that the same must be true in other places (like Waterford, Cape Clear, Iveragh, 7rl).

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 398
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 01:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't have any first-hand knowledge of anywhere else in Ireland but I suspect that the same must be true in other places (like Waterford, Cape Clear, Iveragh, 7rl).

In the Buntús Cainte series, the stress is placed on the first syllable, which is why I asked. Likewise in other resources I've consulted.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1215
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 02:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And Buntús Cainte represents which pronunciation exactly? In Conamara 'agam' and 'agat' are pronounced 'am', 'ad', thus the question of stress does not arise at all. Still, 'aige' and 'aici' have final stress everywhere, not just in Munster.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1216
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 02:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I always pronounce вёл as [vjol] as if it would be въёл



This is unfortunate.

quote:

By the way, why do you lenite dhuit in Dia dhuit?


In Munster and Connact 'do' and its forms are regularly lenited following words ending in a vowel. 'd' stays unchanged only in Donegal.

quote:

But not everyone (not every learner is an academic) knows IPA.


It is not about being pedantic, or too posh. 'gwitch' is simply wrong, Irish 'dhuit' is not even close to 'gwitch' in pronunciation. However, every second site advises to say 'gwitch', so then people walk around and profess it is "standard" (sic!) pronunciation. A horrible mistake, even repeated million times does not become true all just by virtue of being copy-pasted.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1217
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 02:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

This kind of pedantic and devisive argument is precisely what has frustrated efforts of students to learn



Again a general, unfounded statement. And I say the laziness and indifference has frustrated the efforts. Somehow I have not notices crowds of confused Irish student only frustrated by phonology discussion while in Ireland. However, I have seen crowds of people who 1) either don't care at all 2) are viciously opposed to anything related to the language and frustrate anybody's efforts to study by labelling the language "dead", "useless", "worthless", "underdeveloped", "doomed" etc.

quote:

they picked one dialect and ran with it. When it came to spelling they deferred to the standard.



And this is very sad. What Irish needs - a good dialectal textbook. TYI (Dillon) is almost 50 years old now, and not exactly a great textbook. Learning Irish is over 20 years old and needs some spruce up too. Now you are talking (the name?) for Donegal Irish also has its drawbacks.

You cannot make a textbook in Munster Irish with "standard spelling", as the differences between dialects are not about spelling, they are about grammar. "sa bhaile" and "sa mbaile" cannot be reconciled into one form, either you pick one or the other, or "ní dheachaidh mé" has no Munster pronunciation because there is no such grammatical form in Munster, only "ní dheaghas" exists.

(Message edited by róman on April 04, 2008)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 28
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 03:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

every second site advises to say 'gwitch'



This [γ] I have also heard different in many sound files. In this board (http://www.daltai.com/key.htm) it has more of a g-quality, but I thought it to be a voiced counterpart to [x], a bit like by German [ʁ] or [R], but with more friction.

You can hold on this sound as long as your breath helds, cannot you? I mean, it is not a stop.

I think γ is pronouncedso in modern Greek before ι,ε,υ. Therefore the symbol. So I may ask Greek friends to pronounce itfor me, if this assuption is right.

PS.I know this is not about Rosetta stone any more, so I beg pardon to the others about this deviation from theme.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1220
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 03:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

this board (http://www.daltai.com/key.htm) it has more of a g-quality



Wrong.

quote:

but I thought it to be a voiced counterpart to [x]



It is.

quote:

a bit like by German [ʁ] or [R]



Not exactly. In German sound you trill your Gaumenzunge, and in Irish sound the air passes unobstructed. This sound is found in Castillian Spanish in the words like "algun" I believe.

quote:

You can hold on this sound as long as your breath helds, cannot you? I mean, it is not a stop.



You can sing it for minutes as it is fricative, not a plosive, surely.

quote:

think γ is pronouncedso in modern Greek before ι,ε,υ.

No, in front of front vowels MG has [j], but in front of back vowels - exactly Irish 'dh'

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 03:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Actually Greek has a nice parallel as slender "dh" is also [j], like in "dhéanamh" [jiAn@v]

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 05:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

No, in front of front vowels MG has [j], but in front of back vowels - exactly Irish 'dh'



Yes, I wrote it the wrong way, I meant of course γ in front of ο,α,ω.

So I may take my Greek friends as a model for gha / dha. Thanks.

quote:

Wrong.



You mean, wrong, they pronounce it incorrecty here at http://www.daltai.com/key.htm (it is on this side, so I ask), or wrong, I did not hear it the way it really is?

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1222
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 06:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

wrong - meaning the pronunciation on the site sounds horrible and not similar to Irish "dh" at all. Frankly speaking all slender consonants there are also wrong. And now I understand why some people believe the difference of /v/ vs /v'/ is the one of [v] vs [w]! Because some sites teach them so!!!

p.s. I hope you took no offence I have called to "Ingeborga" last night? Sometimes people re-write the names into the way the name sounds in their language, and we have a famous actress (for us at least) named Ingeborga Dapkunaite. She was the wife of Brad Pitt in "Seven years in Tibet".

(Message edited by róman on April 04, 2008)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 469
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 08:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Actually for many of the Daltai sound samples they are the same (broad or slender) and English to boot...

le díol

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 30
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 10:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I hope you took no offence I have called to "Ingeborga" last night?



Ingeborga is quite cute. A Svede call mealways [ingeborj] as in her native tongue.

But you Lithuanians do it with all proper nouns, don't you: Žakas Širakas

Advantage: You can decline the people grammatically and call him: Žakai Širakai!

So don't worry.

quote:

Because some sites teach them so!!!



This stuff with [v] and [w] is omnipresent. It's in all my more popular textbooks.

I may quote only "Irish-Gälisch Wort für Wort" by Lars Kabel:

Lenition b (b) > bh (v) (+e/i); (w) (+a/o/u)
v wie in Violine: bhi (vii) war
w Halblaut zwischen "u" und "w" wie das "w" in engl. "water" bhur wur (euer)

There you are.

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 04, 2008)

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Do_chinniúint
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Post Number: 227
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 05:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have noticed another interesting factor that complicates the "bh and mh."

And that is with the liberal use of the word "Gaelic" in the modern word.

While most us here know, and often assume, that it is common knowledge that there is a difference between "Gaeilge and Gàidhlig," the sad truth is that most of the modern world does not. In fact, I think it is fair to say that most people know that "Gaelic" has something to do with the Celtic world, but honesty don't know it has something to do with a language.

And if one goes to the web and searches for "Gaelic pronunciation." What you get is "Gàidhlig" pronunciation where the "bh and mh" are pronounced "v". If a person doesn't know any better, it can cause confusion.

Also Róman I have to ask...

Are you by chance a linguist by trade? The reason I ask is that the only people I know who tend to be so anal about such little details in pronunciation are linguists and the French ;-) You have a very technical knowledge of the phonetics of Irish, I won't lie it is very impressive, but you have to relax a little.

All the knowledge in the word isn't going to change the fact that to some people, when they hear "duit" spoken it sounds like "gwitch" to them.

Irish is neither objective nor inanimate. It is a living breathing creature that changes. By the time science gets around and writing "this is how it is"...usually what they are studying has already changed. And this is just as true with the Irish language.

Maybe it is laziness that is driving modern pronunciation, but that doesn't change the fact that at this point and time that's how people are choosing to speak.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 04, 2008)

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 399
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 05:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Where I grew up (northeastern United States), I can tell you that just about everybody thinks that the native language of Ireland is "Gaelic," and that there is a Scottish version of it known as "Scots Gaelic," the two being basically the same language but for small differences in pronunciation, and that it's incredibly difficult to learn and virtually dead.

Naturally this is pretty much wrong on all counts but it's the common assumption where I'm from, and I've found it to be the case here in the northwestern US as well. I told a colleage last year that I was studying the Irish language and the first words out of her mouth were "Oh yeah, Gaelic! I've heard that's hard." :)

I never heard it referred to as "Irish" until I was in college and hanging out with a bunch of students who came over from Ireland, one of whom was a native speaker from Galway.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Post Number: 400
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 05:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As to the dh/gh sound, it sounds essentially like a uvular R to me, as is used in French.

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Naturally this is pretty much wrong on all counts



Is it so wrong? In the middle Age the Scots used the same written language as the Irish and their spoken language was understandable to each other. So the language split between Scotland and Éire is not so deep.
(I think Irish settlers brought their language to Albain in earlier times and later resettlement to Ulster influenced the dialect there)

quote:

As to the dh/gh sound, it sounds essentially like a uvular R to me, as is used in French.



Yeah, it also reminded me much of this throaty Parisian r "grasseyé"

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 04, 2008)

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Do_chinniúint
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Post Number: 228
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 06:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at it.

If you were to write side by side Gaeilge and Gàidhlig you can easily see the similarities between them. But then this also happens when you write Italian and Spanish side by side also.

But most people will agree that Italian and Spanish are very different.

Personally, I think it is the same with Irish and Scottish.

It is not incorrect to call both languages "Gaelic." It is incorrect to confuse "Gaelic" with "Gàidhlig." Which can be easily confused due to the Scottish pronunciation of the word.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 401
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 06:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's a completely unrelated language that seems to feature slender t and d:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ppISD5afi-k

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3571
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 07:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

But most people will agree that Italian and Spanish are very different.

Ach is féidir le duine a bhfuil Spáinnis aige Iodáilis a thuiscint, agus vice versa. Is minic a chuala turasóirí Iodálacha i Meicsiceo ag caint leis na daoine áitiúla, na daoine ar an dá thaobh den chomhrá ag baint úsáide as a dteanga féin. Is féidir Gaeilge agus Gàidhlig a úsáid mar sin i gcomhrá. Ach ar an láimh eile, más Gaeilgeoir thú is deacair an Ghàidhlig a thuiscint -- mura a bhfuil taithí agat uirthi cheana féin -- má tá siad ag caint le chéile, agus tú ar an taobh amuigh.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3572
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 07:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Here's a completely unrelated language that seems to feature slender t and d

Ní dóigh liom é. Má tá rud éigin cosúil le 't' caol agus 'd' caol in Apache, ní cuid fhóinéimeach den teanga iad. Is é sin le rá, ní dhéantar idirdhealú ar leathan agus caol sna teangacha sin (go bhfios domsa).

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 470
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 11:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"when they hear "duit" spoken it sounds like "gwitch" to them."

That's because they tell themselves that and believe it to be so. If broad gh is made in other words they don't hear 'gw' so it's not a simple aural thing -they are treating 'dhuit' as a special case, i mo thuirim. Pé scéal é, bíonn sé mí-cheart.

"that's how people are choosing to speak"

For me, people's supposed self-volition is very much more limited than they like to think. Bíonn na comhráite i mBéarla, ach ba maith linn iad i nGaeilge, ach ag scríobh inár dteanga duchais níos furasta :(


As for w and v, bh and mh (slender) in the north only have a glide associated them before a back vowel (but no palatization) before a front vowel, mar shampla, fí (weave) [ɸʹiː], fiú (value) [ɸʲuː]. This holds for all pairs (b/bh & mh, f, m, p).

For broad, the lips are rounded like ‘bw’, ‘fw’, ‘mw’, ‘pw’, ‘bhw’ if you get my drift [bʷ] etc

The explanation of ‘w’ vs’ ‘v’ is not so bad further north because of the reasons I outlined –there is not the need for the extra glide most of the time given the greater difference.

What Román rightly points out is the broad vs slender distinction that is forgotten about. This is important in grammar and gets brushed aside. Look at this for example from a popular learning site:

“The most dramatic changes are:
broad d is pronounced /d/ as in "door"
slender d is pronounced /dj/, like the "dg" in "edge"
broad s is pronounced /s/ as in "say"
slender s is pronounced /sh/ as in "sheep"
broad t is pronounced /t/ as in "talk"
slender t is pronounced /tch/ as in "tchah!" or "hatch"


Funny that, the most ‘dramatic’ differences are precisely the ones seen in English, even tho the native tongue has even more dramatic contrasts (think slender gh and broad gh, slender ch and broad ch, slender dh and broad dh). In fact all native sounds are very well differentiated –just because one has not learned them or the genitive etc, does not make them non-existent (a logical error atheists make too among others)

le díol

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 229
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 02:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bearn,

"What Román rightly points out is the broad vs slender distinction that is forgotten about. This is important in grammar and gets brushed aside. Look at this for example from a popular learning site..."

I am not saying that Róman is incorrect in what they say. What I am saying is that to claim a right and wrong pronunciation is a very tricky thing. In oder for there to be correct and incorrect, there must be a standard pronunciation and I have yet to know of one for Irish.

Irish varies by dialect, by county, by city, and even by person.

You cannot say that "duit" is not pronounced like "gwitch." Why? Because it is very possible that someone out there does. Now if this same person is a native speaker of Irish, then how can it be incorrect Irish?

Now Róman isn't making this claim right out...I do not want to make it sound as if they are...but indirectly that is exactly what they are implying. And I just think that this is a tricky stance to be taking.

And anyone who knows anything about phonetics knows that the one constant is that they change all the time. Why can Irish not also?

Perhaps Irish is in a transition state of a major phonetic change? Perhaps we are just seeing modern Irish do what all people do...adapt the language to them.

If people want to say that the slender "t" sounds like a "ch" and a slender "d" sounds like a "j"...then so be it. They are not "brushing off" the distinction between slender and broad...they are just adopting it to their personal tastes. Again there is not thing wrong with this. It's just not what you want them to do because Irish is trying to revive itself. It is hard enough to keep what was going, major changes to the language only complicate matters.

Does it affect grammar...well, I don't know. It seems like we humans are pretty clever creatures. If our sounds are stopping people from understanding us...I think we have the means to get around this. And I don't think a change in phonetics is going to cause a collapse in Irish grammar because if it did...how did Irish manage this long when it's phonetics have been under constant change?

And Roman, I must apologize. I hope that you do not think that I am going after you. I really am not. In truth, I think that phonetics is about the last issue that needs to really be debated when it comes to Irish. It's just that we have a lot of people here who get a little too "picky" when it comes to phonetics. I just don't see have people can sit there and say that there is no correct way to say something...but then look you in the eye and say that there is an incorrect way to say it. Just one of those things I guess.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 05, 2008)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 05, 2008)

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 473
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 02:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Because it is very possible that someone out there does. Now if this same person is a native speaker of Irish, then how can it be incorrect Irish?"

It's no possibility -it's an actuality among non-natives! It is not that way by a *native population* and this is the main thing I think that leads to such arguments. A native population is one in which a stable linguistic community produces children what have the tongue as their native speech type.

Based on that definition, there is only one form of Irish -native Irish. The community constraint is missing from revival Irish, pure and simple. Notice not one ever points out different...


Some rounding of consonants in initial position is certainly possible, but that only happened among speakers of good traditional gaelic with lip contrasts (ch rounded in chuaidh or even made into 'fua' as in 'fua sé' ~ 'He went'. There are some other examples too. There is a speaker in Buntus Cainte who has coirce with a labalised initial broad c, and we have Twomy as surnames, as how they came about, I don't know. Maybe such a development one started in parts of the country.

However, for gwitch to exist, there would have to have been a push to bi-labialise all non-labial initial consonants (or at least all initial stops) which we have not seen (cw, dw, gw, sw, tw). Why would non-native speakers who, apart from 'w' have only labio-dental labials extend a labialisation distinction that they lack on labial consonants to stops, when their own native tongue, like Irish, lacks them, and then only for one word (dhuit) but not others starting with the same spelling? The answer is simple -they are confronted with a sound they can't make so add something someone made up instead. If they go and make their own form of Irish, well and good, and all power to them, and it will be native to their speech community, but it will not be native to the Gaeltacht.

Most of the time they make broad gh as g, so why 'gw' for dhuit?


"Why can Irish not also? "

Irish can and does. What seems to be missing in people's awareness is that Irish is dying, plain and simple, for the simple reason the only stable speech communities where it is to be found are contracting. If people want to set up new ones, then do that, but don't live in a fantasy world that because there is a collective memory of a time when another language apart from English was spoken in Ireland, that means Irish is alive. That's an odd belief, but that is what people do believe.


"Perhaps we are just seeing modern Irish do what all people do...adapt the language to them"

If there was a major movement across the country where some sort of hybrid of English and Irish became a lingua franca of the young, and became over time the national language, then that would be interesting. To listen to some of the posts, you'd think that indeed was happening.

In fact, what is occurring is that Hiberno-English is dying out and been replaced by British English; native Irish is been replaced by British English, and Irish as simplified code of instruction (like Latin used to be) is spreading slightly. That is not a language in development, it is a moribund auxiliary language, plain and simple. Those that can speak it can't express themselves -except for pointing at things and 'i go yesterday' type of speech.

"major changes to the language" -as a result of becoming moribund.

"it's phonetics have been under constant change all this time"

It's sound system has been one of the most stable in Europe over the last millennium -syllabic structure has changed definitely (hence new spelling used) but notice it is mostly internal to a word oidhche --> oiche -->íhe, so it is not like English, all over the place.

le díol

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 32
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 04:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

does not make them non-existent (a logical error atheists make too among others)



Oh, are there hiding in Irelands realm many more strange phonemes like [ɦ] [ɶ] [ʏ] [ʔ] and [ɠ] aswell as many unrevialed gods and goddessses?
[But I will restrain me to blunder out about theism, we are all a bit touchy about this theme, we humans.]

quote:

what all people do...adapt the language to them.



I remember as a child, when I had my first English lesson, the first sentence I read aloud was: That's Mike.
I said: [tats mi:kə] instead of [ðætz maik]. I am glad I was stopped to adapt the English language to my German habits and whims.

Only with dead languages you can do that. No native ear is insulted when the Englishmen use their warped version of Latin pronunciation. In legal terms it is now a new standard.

In such a language revival from a quasi dead language you may decree new invented pronunciations, like the Jews in contemporary Israel:
European Jews pronounced the ת like in שבת; (sabbath) as [s], ie. [ʃabəs], but Orientals like a [Þ] ie. [ʃabaÞ]. One decided to unify the pronunciation of ת with תּ [t], ie. [ʃabat], how it never pronounced anyone.

PS: Languages which are surrounded by very different languages tend to lose the part of the phoneme inventory, which is foreign to the surrounding languages. So yes, it is a wonder that Irish phonetics have been so stable for around a millennium.

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 05, 2008)

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 05, 2008)

(Message edited by ingeborg on April 05, 2008)

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 476
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Perhaps because Irish people have lived in the countryside and are very parochial most nouns were weak and needed the broad slender system, maybe

le díol

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Jeannette
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Username: Jeannette

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 06:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Wow I am confused by all this RS Irish Language discussion.

I am interested in buying it...but the cost is so steep for an OLD and retired person Wow, I'm sure confused by all this Rosetta Stone Irish Language learning.
. I already have been studying on my own for several years in "fits and starts", have several learning texts..TYI, TYIGrammar, LI, Buntus Cainte and three dictionaries..
I feel that I am pretty good at pronunciation, have some grasp of the grammar, have knowledge of the verb forms from my VERB book (can't remember the name of it right now as I type this......part of my problem is a bit of memory loss at times:))) and my vocabulary needs work...
I find I learn best by doing small, informal, study at a time,...it stays with me longer. I like to pick up one of my books, open to any page and learn what's on that page. This is what I mean by "informal"...no lesson plan. I think I would consider myself an "Intermediate Beginner" I attended a language weekend once but only could speak a few phrases...but understood a good deal of the classwork.
So, my question for any of you is ...if I decide to "spend away my grandchildren's inheritance", what level of this RS should I get?
What does Irish Level 1 Level 2, Level 3 and "version 3" mean? The RS web page is not all that specific in it's information.

Anybody have ideas on this? GRA
Jeannette

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 09:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Version three is the latest version of the software. It has the most up-to-date features.

And yes, the price is steep - my recommendation? Go for the three month subscription. It runs about $100 and gives access to all three levels. Do the whole thing for $109.

You will get something from all the levels, even if it's just vocabulary (I'm still learning things from Level 1)

Even if you pace yourself slowly, doing about 20 mins a day you can easily get through everything well inside of three months.

Have your cake and eat it too =)

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 230
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 09:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Jeannette

Please do not allow our debating above to influence you one way or another.

If you have not been on this site for very long, you will soon learn that it doesn't matter what the topic is...we are going to get into the same circular debates. ;-)

I think that some of the most common debates that continue to circle around are:

Phonetics
Dialects
Government
Education

These are all good things to debate because they are all serious issues that have no answers. There is no right or wrong. And no matter how hard we try and fail...we hold on to the hope of one day changing a mind or two...

It gives people like us to debate for nothing other than debating a topic that we are all very passionate about.

As for the Rosetta Stone itself. I am a fan, and honestly believe that it is a good course.

I know the price is very steep. That's why I would weigh the choice carefully. I recommend not buying but subscribing to the course online. If you have a slow computer...it may not be worth it. If you want to buy...go for the personal version. It really is no different than the home school addition and it is a little cheaper.

You do not have to pay the full price up front. They have a three or four month payment plan also.

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 91.121.7.211
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 03:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The pronunciation of dhuit as "gwitch" would be incorrect Irish. I am making that statement flat out! bhuachall is NOT pronouced VOOkull either. If you have trouble with the IRish ch, it is like the Spanish j. And the dh is the voiced equivalent.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1226
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Phonetics
Dialects



I would add: grammar, syntax, idioms. So? Isn't it natural and expected that students of a foreign language want to discuss such topics? I am sorry, but not all people are happy with "let-us-relax-and-learn-nothing" or "I-know-it-is-not-"gwitch"-but-I-will-keep-on-saying-it-regardless" approaches so popular in US. I can tell you are horror-story: in my native country the pupils of junior classes still get marks, and if they have not learnt their lesson - they are told so. It might mean some stress for them, but at least they are not delusional about their academic achievement.

Is it a wonder that US public schools are on par with third-world countries' standards in terms of things learnt? I know you may think "no-stress-for-anyone" may be worth it, but don't be surprised if US will be successively overtaken in the terms of living standards by many countries yet in your lifetime.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6911
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 07:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sin bladhmach, a Róman.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 231
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman,

This is the nonsense that I am talking about right here. You have allowed your passions and personal opinions to overrun you.

To make such statements with no ability to back them up does little help your case. Credibility is everything in the modern world, especially if you want to be accepted as a scholar or academic of any type. Otherwise you might as well be screaming at a wall because you'll be getting about the same affect.

There is nothing wrong with people "wanting to discuss such topics." In fact, I encourage it because I think it is good that people chat about such things, but do not take over other threads with these discussions. There is no law that says you cannot start a new thread that references something in another thread. That would be a more appropriate course of action than just taking over the thread.

I mean look at what happened to poor Jeannette with our "non-thread" related debating. We only confused and stunted their learning. This doesn't help Irish at all.

And as an American I will say that there is some truth to your statements concerning the current American education system. We do have problems. But no one here is delusional about it. All one has to do is turn on the radio or television and someone complaining about our schools at every level. Believe it or not...we are very aware of our situation. And we are trying to correct it.

Forgive us for having the world's largest educational system in the world. It takes time, money, and effort to see anything happen. And as soon as change starts, our country is unhappy with it because we want to try and make it better.

Also do not for a second that think that any "institution" accurately represents the individual within it. While the system is faulty, that in no way measures the quality of an individual. We have, and continue to, produce some of the brightest minds in the world. These select few here and there are coming from the same system of education you just called a joke.

Personally, I don't think there is system of education out there that is perfect. But if you disagree you are welcome to give me the name your country and I will be happy to compare our education systems in another thread.


Seaghán...who says that to pronounce duit as "gwitch" is incorrect? Is this your opinion, or do you base this on something? Again I have to ask this question. People are always eager to point out what is incorrect, and yet never suggest what is correct. If the pronunciation is allowed to differ within the dialects at all, then why can't "gwitch" be allowed also? What makes it incorrect? Who says? By what standard do you make this judgment?

I understand that the books people are reading are saying this and that...but again the authors are just taking a stand and what they believe to be correct. That doesn't make it so.



(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 07, 2008)

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1228
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 12:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There is nothing wrong with people "wanting to discuss such topics." In fact, I encourage it



By calling it "a circular argument" (.i. worthless) or by stating there is no "right or wrong pronunciation" (read between the line: the debate is futile)? I would strongly advise you to abstain from tagging the discussions you don't fully comprehend as "circular argument". And the fact you have a rather vague understanding of Irish phonetics does not mean "there is neither right or wrong pronunciation". This sole quote of yours:

quote:

who says that to pronounce duit as "gwitch" is incorrect?



shows you have not a clue what is Irish and what is a gibberish.

You can construe it as a personal attack, or flaming - it is not. To start with, it was you who offered me to "relax" when I was just in the midst of helping Ingeborg. I have nothing against ignorant people, but when they obstruct the other learners in their pursuit of a good Irish - you just crossed the red line in my eyes.

p.s. I have many things to say about American education system and especially on the nationality of majority of "the brightest minds" graduating from your (undoubtly) grand universities - but this does not pertain to Irish anyhow, so I suggest we drop the topic.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 232
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 03:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman,

While you may understand phonetics, you might want to work on your semantics.

"circular" does not = "worthless"

"circular" = "without end"

Also, I am not obstructing anyone's pursuit of good Irish. I am only asking for clarification of what "good Irish" is? What standards are you using to determine if something is correct or incorrect.

Is this what you think is correct? If so, then why? Did you read this in some books? If so, then which books? I am trying to understand where your point of view is coming from. Every Irish language course and text I have comes with the disclosure, "This is intended only to be a rough guide..." There is not a single Irish language source out there that says, this is how you pronounce Irish.

Because there is not a single reference source out there that honestly has the ability to say "this is how it is." There are however, many sources out there that have taken Irish under a microscope and said "this is how they do it here and at this time," but that is really all they are saying.

I respect your opinions, really I do. But again, you must be careful when you make statements and assumptions. You do not know me, or my knowledge of the Irish language. So please, do not make the assumption that I have a "rather vague understanding of Irish phonetics."

I "obviously don't know" what Irish is. I am asking you, please, education this savage from a failed education. What is Irish?

If "gwitch" is gibberish, tell me why? You have not told me why yet? For some reason you are avoiding this simple question. Is it because you personally do not like it? Why is this not an acceptable way to pronounce "duit?"

I have read your very detailed and technical explanations. But this doesn't tell me why "gwitch" is incorrect? It tells me that if I want to pronounce it like you want me to, then I should be doing it this way...but again I would like to know why your way is the correct way?

Again I am only curious...



(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 07, 2008)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 07, 2008)

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Caoimhín
Board Administrator
Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 236
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 03:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

You can construe it as a personal attack, or flaming - it is not



I disagree. Please do not engage in personal invective.

Being polite can go a long way.

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 233
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Caoimhín,

It is OK.

I do not find anything Róman has said to be personally offensive. They might not get a birthday card for their crack on the US school systems, but I myself have said worse ;-)

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 35
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"Every Irish language course and text I have comes with the disclosure, "This is intended only to be a rough guide..." There is not a single Irish language source out there that says, this is how you pronounce it.



There are detailed descriptions of some dialects in the series "The Irish of ...", published by the Dublin Institue for Advanced Studies", which all have the subtitel: "A phonemic study" or "A phonetic study"

For example my copy of "The Irish of Tourmakeady, Co Mayo" gives very detailed, I daresay scientifically valid information, how Irish was pronounced there in this village at the beginning of last century, with examplified speakers (there is a list of informers in it). So there are more than "rough guides". At least after reading the 169 pages you can cleary state: So spake the native Aindriú de Búrca and some other guys.

It's under the microscope, as you said, but I know no other method to determine in Irish, which was and is where and when a valid pronunciation.

So if you wrote a language study "The Irish of our classroom in Dublin. A phonemic study" you certainly will find other varieties.

You refuse the notion that there can be in a language barbarisms (nonstandard pronuciation against orthoepy), which have to be blamed. Then it is impossible to refute any pronunciation, because one can say: XY says it so, so it is a possible variant.

It depends on the fact: Are you an prescriptive or a pure descriptive user of the language. In German I am more of the former and correct friends in language errors and they me (if they are interested in it), because I and they have a strong feeling, what is tolerable in language use and what is not. In Irish this feeling is obviously lost.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6915
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In Irish this feeling is obviously lost.



Absolutely not. Unfortunately, some speakers are extremely prescriptive in setting a single (sub)dialect as the gold standard, and rejecting other well established dialects as sub standard.

This muddies the waters somewhat - but I think most fluent Irish speakers would be agreed that certain learnt pronunciations which are not rooted in a living gaeltacht speech are just wrong.

The internet is not representative of the full range of opinion in Ireland among Irish speakers. And as usual, strong opinions seem to feature more than reasoned ones.

There is also an issue of how one corrects in a helpful way (and doesn't reject something because it is unfamiliar).

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 1231
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 06:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What standards are you using to determine if something is correct or incorrect.

Is this what you think is correct? If so, then why? Did you read this in some books? If so, then which books? I am trying to understand where your point of view is coming from.



It feels like a travesty now, really. Dear do_chinniúint, it appears you not only have a very vage understanding of Irish phonology, but you don't even bother to read what other posters have to say on the topic before "helpfully" suggesting to "relax". Someone is clearly OVERLY relaxed if allows himself to interrupt the conversation not even reading what was said above!

Just for your enlightenment - In the very same thread I did not only name the particular book on Irish phonetics, I even quoted 3 paragraphs out of it. Then we proceeded with Ingeborg to discuss to a great length a fine point from the book. And after that you ask if I "read it in some book"? It is not even funny, it is tragifarcical.

(Message edited by róman on April 07, 2008)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 1232
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 06:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Unfortunately, some speakers are extremely prescriptive in setting a single (sub)dialect as the gold standard



This is unfortunate. All Irish dialects should be deemed as equal, even if some of them are not to someone's liking.

quote:

I think most fluent Irish speakers would be agreed that certain learnt pronunciations which are not rooted in a living gaeltacht speech are just wrong.



Mo cheól thú, Aonghais! This quote of yours is the best way to express my feelings and convictions. Many dialects in Irish mean a lot of leeway in the matters of pronunciation, however there are certain limits, and some things (like pronouncing "dh" like [g]) are so wrong that there is no way you can fit them into ANY, even totally ecclectic mish-mash of living dialects. Such things are simply wrong, as wrong as pronouncing English "r" like [l] (as the Japanese usually do). Even with a bewildering variety of native English accents there is not a single one which would pronounce "Larry" and "rally" the same.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 234
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 06:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ingeborg,

Please do not get me wrong. I am playing with Róman because I know from past posts how phonetics stirs them ;-)

Perhaps a little on the rough side I know, but Róman has to accept, or at least be aware, that word usage is crucial. Some statements have to be backed up with some form of justification. Otherwise the statement carries little weight.

In truth, I know why Róman is having so much trouble with "gwitch." They, like so many others, are making the assumption that without the individual actually there to pronounce "duit"...they know exactly how that individual is pronouncing the word because they wrote "gwitch."

Which is an interesting thing for a person so interested in phonetics to do because they should know that graphic representation means nothing without a context to go with it? The word "gwitch" means nothing because all we have is a group of letters with no phonetic background.

Now I know what people are thinking here, "How can a person possibly write down something that is completely different from how they are actually pronouncing it, I mean that just doesn't happen in real life!"

English:

there, their, they're, bye, by, four, for...

French:

vas, lit, nez, tapis, chaussettes, poignet, cou...


I mean the thought of human beings doing such a thing. The nerve of some people right? Who in their right mind would ever think that such a notion would even be acceptable in the real world ;-)

And I am not saying that any pronunciation is acceptable. What I am saying is that (1) if you are going to say something is incorrect, then you need to justify why (2) that you cannot even begin to say that a person is doing it wrong unless you are there at the time of their doing it. You can say "you know, that might not be the best way to write that because..." but you cannot say it is wrong because frankly you just don't know.

And Róman...

Once again you have made a foolish assumption that I didn't read the any of the other posts.

Again...this series is concentrating on the Irish of a given area. It is very difficult to say that from this we can say good from bad with Irish...all we can really do is say normal from deviant for a paticular region.





(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 07, 2008)

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 60.232.85.252
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 10:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

DC, the reason why it is baldly stated that dh is the voiced equivalent of ch is that it is in all Irish dialects. To ask, "where is the evidence?" is like asking where is the evidence that ch is pronounced in French like English sh. It is always advisable to copy the pronunciation of native speakers, especially in matters where all dialects of the language agree.

Now, you could point to the way some Irish people pronounce "with you" as "wid you", and discuss the way that d was originally a wrong pronunciation of th, but has become a mother tongue for many. But the point is that speakers of Hiberno-English speak it as a mother tongue, thus nativising that pronunciation.

It would be possible for an Anglo-Gaelic (the reverse of Hiberno-English) to develop - a dialect of Irish heavily influenced by English and pronouncing dhuit as gwitch, but until that became the mother tongue, the sole language, of a large speech community, it wouldn't be regarded as native. A language that has more learners than native speakers has to be careful to require learners to learn well, otherwise it becomes a patois and then dies.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 235
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seaghán,

See, now this is what I am talking about. All I have been wanting to hear is for someone to say "I think this because..."

To throw everyone off, I personally agree that it is not a good idea to write "gwitch." But I also think that it is just was wrong to allow someone to say something as bold as Róman was without justification or clarification. Words these days are just as powerful as punches. Wouldn't you want to know why a complete strange walked up to another complete stranger and punched them? There has to be, or at least there should be, some reason involved. That's why I wouldn't drop it.

On the contrary to Róman's assumptions that I do not know anything about Irish phonetics, I have been comparing Irish dialects for while know. I am amazed at the diversity that has arisen on such a little island.

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Seaghán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 192.251.226.205
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 11:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is a little off-topic, but I must protest: words are not as powerful as punches, and never can be. Nothing Róman has said to you amounts to a punch on the nose. If you could only see it, Róman is trying to help you.

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3591
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 12:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

words are not as powerful as punches... a punch on the nose

Nár chuala tú an seanfhocal seo riamh?

Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 236
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 01:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am familiar with that one too Dennis...LOL

Correction, Róman was not trying to help me. They were trying to tell me I was wrong, when I never disagreed with them to start. I simply said that you cannot make such a bold statement without being able to back it up.

I told Róman to relax and ease up on the phonetic attacks they were making. And their response was actually an unjustified verbal attack not only against me, but my country and its education. Without evening knowing me they insulted my intelligence and my country. That is a punch in the nose if ever there was one.

Personally, although it should have, nothing Róman said offended me, however, I will not let such "unfounded statements" as Róman put it to go unchallenged. The more I asked for the justifications for their statements...the more Róman became defensive and avoided answering a simple opinion question.

Personally, I do not think this to be the behavior of a true scholar or mature adult. Now I am a reasonable person. And believe it not I have no hard feelings towards Róman. It is hard to get mad at a few sentences on the internet of all places. Róman is allowed their feelings and opinions, I can respect that. But the manner if which a person expresses them speaks volumes for character. I hope in the future, they will show a little reserve in their responses.


(Message edited by do_chinniúint on April 08, 2008)

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 1234
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 02:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Some statements have to be backed up with some form of justification.



You are very much like a protesting child, who just has been told that 2x2=4. Then, on your repeated questions "where is the evidence" you are suggested elementary maths textbook for junior cycle - you still proceed: "have you read it in some textbook"? I have neither time nor wish to waste on such irredentist people.

Look, please, get it straight. I was not even talking to you on the matter of phonetics (and you just made sure I will never do in the future), I was talking to Ingeborg. Now, you jump in into the conversation not of yours with silly suggestion to drop the topic because it is a "circular argument". Well, if you could contribute anything meaningful on the topic of phonetics and if you bothered to check the books mentioned - you wouldn't have come with an absurd notion the argument was "circular". We reached agreement with Ingeborg rather fast. Alas, you even did not notice this as the whole topic was beyond your comprehension.

quote:

they know exactly how that individual is pronouncing the word because they wrote "gwitch."



No matter how you pronounce it, "g" <> "dh", simple as that. There is nothing really to discuss.

quote:

because they should know that graphic representation means nothing without a context to go with it?



There is no such context where "g" would suddenly sound like "dh". Furthermore, the sound "dh" does not exist in English, so it is futile from the very beginning to try to render this sound with English letters, it is impossible.

quote:

Once again you have made a foolish assumption that I didn't read the any of the other posts.



Well, if the person keeps asking "where do you know from" if the book "Irish of Tourmakeady" has been
1) mentioned 3 times already
2) passages have been quoted from the book to back the argument - it naturally seems that you did not read the posts above. Otherwise, you would not ask incessant pointless questions on the title of the book.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Paul (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 72.43.167.138
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 11:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, getting back to Rosetta Stone,
I've seen used copies of Rosetta Stone packages for other language selling for as little as $50.
I'm sure used copies of their Irish release will show up soon as well.

Regards,
Paul

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Caoimhín
Board Administrator
Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 237
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 11:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Please take any remaining discussion of Rosetta Stone to a new thread.

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.



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