Who else thinks that compulsory irish for entrance into N.U.I. universities is discrimination? Only people born on the island of Ireland (32 counties) must pass it in order to gain entrance. Are we not the same as other human beings? Its fair enough if you wish to study irish in third level but 99.99% of courses don’t require fluent, or even any Irish, to study them.

I think the requirement should be applied to all - even foreign applicants.

A Dharragh a chara,

You probably won't find a lot of support for your position on this site, just a guess, :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

Also, something that often gets overlooked when talking about upper level education is that:

1) upper level education is not mandatory by law but rather by society's opinion

2) upper level education is a business no different than any other and must run itself accordingly which means a selection process of competitive elimination.

I bring these points up because they are major factors in determining entry requirements. And while it is true that Ireland has been, and continues to be, a popular place for international study...the majority of it's students are still Irish born people who have been pumped through Ireland's educational pipelines. This means that while they must take the needs of international students into consideration, their main focus is on Irish students.

The Irish language is one crucial factor than can be used as an elimination factor for most Irish students in the selection process because it is one factor that in theory can demonstrate character among individuals. Every student in Ireland received at least X amount of education in Irish because it was mandatory by law. However, at the end, the individual was given a choice as to the depth they wanted to take Irish. Those who chose to take the harder and more in-depth route are ultimately showing a little more character to the administrations because they were willing to put forth a little more effort than those who chose to take the slightly easier and less in-depth route.

I know that probably doesn't help your argument for discrimination, but in all honesty, what they are doing is the exact opposite of discrimination.

"Discrimination" is treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit.

They are not saying that because you are Irish you should speak Irish or else you are not better than the next candidate. They are saying that you have been given an education in Irish and now they want to see what you have done with it that the other candidate did not.

It's not personal...it's just business. And I can promise you that with the growing competition in Ireland's work forces, Irish will probably become an elimination factor here also. So even if your courses are not in Irish or require Irish, it is a good bet that Irish is going to affect your career either for the positive if you have it...or negative if you do not.

This may be one of the few areas where we can see that Irish is here to stay, and Irish society is starting to really feel its presence.

And if you want to, take a look at Ireland's international enrollment...take a look at how many are attending Irish language courses or have Irish language certification already. I think you will be really surprised. Going to school in a foreign country is a very big deal. Students don't just randomly pick institutions. Their decisions when going international are usually based on three major factors: 1) cost 2) program 3) interest in target culture. In other words, they are not just going to Ireland....they are going to IRELAND! ;0)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on January 07, 2008)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on January 07, 2008)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on January 07, 2008)

Ná cothaigh an troll!

http://www.nui.ie/entry/default.asp#ex_irish_third_lang

"Candidates born on the island of Ireland (32 counties) must pass the subject Irish in the Leaving Certificate or GCE/GCSE Examinations.
"

At the risk of feeding the troll I warned against:

If you cannot acheive 40 % in Ordinary Level/Pass Irish in the Leaving Cert, you are not likely to make it through college.

LOL...

I hope I am not the troll you are speaking of Aonghus ;0)

No. I meant the oaken one, the sianaí who launched the thread.

Is maith liom an nasc a chuir tú i do theachtaireacht, a Aonghuis!

Cinnte dearfach.

Is leibhéal thar a bheith íseal é 40% ag an ngnáthleibhéal.

Absolutely. Expecting 40% at ordinary level Gaeilge is not asking a lot.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not completely against Irish. I think it’s important that we should keep it alive and it an essential part of our culture but it should not be forced onto people. People spend 13 yeas learning it and the majority never use it once they leave school. There’s a lot of time and money spent on it which could be spent on something more useful like another European language or an extra science subject. The allocation of extra points to students who sit their leaving cert through Irish is also wrong. Intelligence should not be judged on what language you speak.

Seafóid.

If you cannot acheive 40% in Ordinary Level Irish, knowing it is a requirement for University, you will not acheive anything else in the time.

quote:

The allocation of extra points to students who sit their leaving cert through Irish is also wrong.

Get your facts straight first.

Students who take the leaving Cert through Irish have their marks multiplied by a factor of 1.1.

i.e. someone who got say 60 % will get 66 %.

This is only fair.

A person taking, say history, will have oodles of sources easily available in English; a student wishing to do it in Irish will have fewer sources, and will have to do a lot of translating.

The extra marks are a recognition of that extra effort.

Nothing to do with different intelligence.

... time and money spent on it which could be spent on something more useful like another European language or an extra science subject. ...

Spéisiúil, gur feidhmiúla teanga seachas a chéile in intinn duine seachas a chéile.

Ní lia duine ná tuairim. Is féidir liom caife nó ceapaire a iarraidh i mbialann i bPolainnis ach thairis sin, is líonmhaire i bhfad Éireann mo lucht aitheantais Gaeilge ná muintir na Polainne ná na Laitvia abhus. Níl siad chomh fairsing is a shamhlaítear iad a bheith. Dála an scéil, nach bhfuil an Béarla brocach ag cách cheana féin ar aon chuma? Tuige mar sin a luífimis isteach ar scór teangacha Eorpacha eile a fhoghlaim ar son na cumarsáide? Luachanna eile seachas aidhm chumarsáide amháin a tharraingeodh isteach le haon teanga eile mé, caithfidh mé a rá.

Tá feidhmeanna na teanga faoi dhíospóireacht leis na cianta, agus ós an rud é go bhfuil caint orthu cruthann sé nach ‘in í an chumarsáid amháin atá i gceist go príomha go deimhin agus is lú an tábhacht dhi ná mar a cheaptar de ghnáth.

Níor cheap mé ariamh go bhfuil an loighic seo leis an staidéar thrí mheán na Gaeilge, ach taithníonn an míniú go mór liom. An bhfuil a leithide de scéim in úsáid sna tíreacha i gcéin eile atá ag iarraidh mionteanga a spreagadh, meas sibh?

Mar fhreagra ar an eolas 1.1 Aonghus, n'fheadar an bhfuil sé sin go hiomlán i gceart.

Tabharfar bónasmharcanna ag ráta 10% de na marcanna a fuarthas d’iarrthóir a fhaigheann níos lú ná 75% de na marcanna iomlána i gcás na n-ábhar seo a leanas:- Laidin, Gréigis...........

Tabharfar bónasmharcanna ag ráta 5% d’iarrthóir a fhaigeann níos lú ná 75% de na marcanna iomlána i gcás na n-ábhar seo a leanas: - Fraincis, Gearmáinis..........

Tabharfar bónasmharcanna ag ráta 3% d’iarrthóir a fhaigheann níos lú ná 75% de na marcanna iomlána i gcás an ábhair Ealaín, Ceird, Dearadh (Teastas Sóisearach).

Thar 75% déanfar laghdú cothrom sa bhónas go dtí go bhfaigheann iarrthóir 100% agus ansin ní fhaigheann sé /sí bónas ar bith.

Ní thabharfar bónasmharcanna i gcás na n-ábhar seo a leanas:- Grafaigh Theicniúla, Líníocht Theicniúil, Ealaín na hArdteistiméireachta (seachas Stair agus Léirthuiscint na hEalaíne)"

( Foinse : http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=ir&mc=ca&sc=im )

"I think it’s important that we should keep it alive and it an essential part of our culture"

The only way that is going to happen is the same way english became "an essential part of [Irish] culture" - it needs to be an **absolute necessity** for the daily life and economic prosperity of every resident of the island of Ireland.



Street signs? Irish only.

Court system? Irish only with english translators provided at the government's expense to accomodate those who don't speak Irish.

School system? Irish-medium for all levels in all schools within 15 years.

Government documents/Dáil proceedings? Irish only

Stipends and tax breaks for broadcasters and publishers who produce more than 80% of their content in Irish.


Nothing short of that is anything but lipservice to "keeping it alive and it an essential part of the culture."

quote:

Mar fhreagra ar an eolas 1.1 Aonghus, n'fheadar an bhfuil sé sin go hiomlán i gceart

Ó bharr mo chinn a tháinig an t-eolas úd.
Leiríonn an méid eolais breise a thug tusa go bhfuil an córás níos cóire fós, i. níl aon buntáiste mícheart a fháil ag gaeilgeoirí, agus níl leathcheal dá laghad á imirt ar na Bearlóirí bhochta.

Ta an ceart ag Antaine. It may sound extreme but I think it would work in a perfect world in which everyone in Ireland cared enough to make the change. But clearly everyone in Ireland does not care enough to make the change so I think the best first step in Antaine's plan is the school system. He has laid out a plan previously which would start with a group of little ones in their first year of school, they'd be the first ones to be taught through Irish. Then as they advance upward in the grade levels the new grade would become Irish medium as well as the previous grades that they've already been through. This way the change would not happen all at once giving people time to prepare for it. Antaine explains it better than I can and it seems like the best way to procede. Then the next generation will be fluent and thus all the changes to court procedings and government will be more welcome and plausable.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Ach aontaímse leat gan amhras. Níl raibh mé i meanscoil le tamall de bhlianta anuas, ar tháinig aon leigheas ar an scéal mar gheall ar an easpa leabhar trí ghaeilge do dhaltaí agus iad ag foghlaim trí mheán na gaeilge?

Thanks, Riona. I'm not going to re-iterate it here since it's available via search on the forum two or three times already. But the thing to keep in mind is that the Irish people didn't start speaking english because they liked the way it sounded, or had romantic notions about england.

They were forced to.

That is the only way for language shift to occur.

Also, language is a practical concern. A few hobbyists may pick up a language they don't have to, but most people don't have the time or energy to invest like that. People will speak what they need to speak.

So, the answer is not, "make people love the Irish language and they will learn it" but "make people *need* the Irish language and they will learn it.

And since Ireland already has a model for language shift (to english) that should be looked at. Alright, we don't need tally sticks, denial of property rights and the threat of the gallows, but economic and convenience bonuses for people who use it, extra expense and inconvenience for people who insist on using english only.

That's the only way to stem the decline.

Now, I said gov't documents should be in Irish only, which would not be in line with the Irish constitution (which provides for two official languages). However, I think that saying government documents must be produced and published in Irish *first* would not breach the language clause. Rest assured, the english speaking population will not suffer their versions to be released months later, crappily translated, or overlooked altogether like the Irish versions currently are.

dia dhuit! conás ta sibh?

I couldn´t avoid to enter topic but in Spain we have a similar situation with Galician wich is one of the languages spoken in Galician region, in the north west of my country. So Spanish is not really the only idiom and the genuine topical language of all Spaniards. Its name is really a make up above a romanic language born in the Middle Age (like English) in the center kingdoms of the iberic peninsula (Castilla, Castilian), it´s my language in the family but I speak Galician with the rest wich is the same older than Spanish one, and romanic like that.

And I regret that situation of Galician (although official) is more than rather precary, and protection measures aren´t so efficient like legal mesures with the Irish. For example there´s no reduction taxes for the companies for the use of galician, idea wich I think it will promote a lot its use and will help to recover a certain justice.

There is obligation to have a determined degree until the high scholl. 50% materias are tought in Galician. And it´s obligatory to speak and write it fine to apply for a public administrative post in the region and councils (in concils these idea can be relative, but it´s demanded).

In addition to that, rest people of Spain who make the exams complain about discrimination when they don´t understand (from my modest opinion) that is needing, at least to attend people, and to respect a legitime language and culture and furthermore with deep celtic origins.

slán go fóill

a mistake

50% materias until university

The spanish govt wanted EU status for Galician language and Catalan, no?

What ever happened there?

Although i wouldn't be surprised at the spanish government after reading about their treatment of the culture of the Basque country..

Leath stádas a lorg siad; mar a bhí ag an nGaeilge roimh 2007.

Ach níl fhios agam cad a tharla. Meileann muilte an Aontais go mall i gceisteanna mar seo.