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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (November-December) » Archive through December 21, 2007 » Awkwardness of gentive and possessives in Irish « Previous Next »

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 - 11:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

cúl na scoile = back of the school
barr an bhoird = top of the table

cúl a scoile? = back of her school
barr a boird = top of her table

Is this how one would render it? I had to say it yesterday when I was mentally practising and I could not even think of what to say, till I reasoned the def art would have to be dropped, as no combined form was familiar to me.

Is this so because originally all possessives in the Indo European languages were genitives, so the possessive particle takes precedent, or just an easier way to say it, given the genitive is there to see.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 652
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 - 12:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm not sure I understand the question - but yes, the examples you have there are right.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Seanfhear
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Username: Seanfhear

Post Number: 48
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 05:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

brn,

Awkwardness for who(m) ? :-)

Seanfhear

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 08:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is not that awkward, but when you try to think of it oneself without prior experience you wonder if it is correct.

In the second part I was just wondering why the definite article came to be dropped rather than incorporated into a new 'possessive definite' like 'his the', ex: barr an bhoird, and barr án bhoird (top of his table) and 'barr ana/ná boird (top of her table.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6669
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 08:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Since "her table" is definite, why would you need an article?

I'm not aware of any langauge that would create the kind of compound you are suggesting.

If you needed an article, you would have to rephrase.

Sin barr an bhoird ar léi é (and that is awkward and may be incorrect, it's not clear whether she owns the table or only its top....)

(Message edited by aonghus on December 17, 2007)

(Message edited by aonghus on December 17, 2007)

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I agree with you Aonghus, I was just wondering.

I am playing with an idea for training/learning where one loads as much as possible onto one word (cat, for example, all all the articles, definitizers, adjectives, (subjective adverbs (goodly for example) etc then 2 words then 3 and so on, the idea been to bridge the gap between a bottom-up approach (which does not lead to ability, as I have found) or top-down (which leads to ability to read but not productive ability, as I have found out too). Perhaps there are different medial levels.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 410
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is quite common, I's say.

I recall a line from Jobim's Agua de Beber - sung in Portuguese - "a minha casa ..." (my house bla-bla-bla) in which "a" stems from "la" of other tengacha Románsacha. To cut it short, loads of examples I'm sure.

'Rath Dé agus bail Phádraig ar a bhfeicfidh mé ó éireoidh mé ar maidin go gcodlóidh mé san oíche'




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