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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (November-December) » Archive through December 08, 2007 » No Béarla 2 « Previous Next »

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can anyone provide a summary of this article from Lá on No Béarla? My Irish is too limited right now.
http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=2624&viewby=date

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Abigail
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Post Number: 641
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No Béarla 2 to be 'more hopeful'

The producer of No Béarla 2 has said that the television series will be "more hopeful" than the first edition of the program which Manchán Magan presented.

No Béarla drew sharp criticism from Irish speakers at the beginning of the year, when it was accused of being unfair to speakers of the language and of discounting the Irish speakers Manchán Magan did meet with during the series.

Speaking with Lá Nua, the producer of the new series, Rossa Ó Siordáin, said that Nó Béarla 2 will take a different approach.

"Since there was so much dissatisfaction with the first program, we felt we ought to engage with the questions which rose out of that.
"We wanted to find out how Irish stands in all areas of life, in government, in the educational system and in society in general.
"The second series is far more hopeful than the first one.
"We looked dispassionately at the status of Irish in the country, but we also took into account the causes for optimism which exist."

Ó Siordáin said that the program's layout would be similar to Al Gore's documentary, An Inconvenient Truth, with Manchán Magan giving lectures before an audience, and the lectures broken up with segments that were recorded around the country.

Four programs will be broadcast in the series next January, each of them examining a particular aspect of life: the government, the educational system, culture and the future.

"For example, for the first program, we got figures from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs which show that the administration spends E105 million a year on Irish, less than half the amount they spend on stationery, E215 million," says Ó Siordáin. One of the most interesting segments that will be on the program is with the hypnotist Paul Golden.

"He hypnotized people who said they had forgotten their Irish since leaving school, and they were able to speak Irish arís.

"Paul Golden felt that the people were very tense about Irish and that was the reason it didn't come out until they were peacefully under the hypnosis."
Ó Siordáin also said that there would be segments in the new series about the Irish-language organizations and about the reasons that the language is declining in the Gaeltacht.



Doesn't sound much "níos dóchasaí" to me but there you go.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Abigail
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oops - "arís" should be "again", of course.

Tá súil agam go bhfuil an lucht féachana ag fáil airgid as. Ba mheasa sin ná dualgas giúiré.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Lughaidh
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 07:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Why have they retained that Manchán again? It would be better if they'd asked another one to make the job.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Riona
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Post Number: 1277
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 07:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Did I misunderstand or did someone around here recently mention Manchun being on a show in which he totally dissed Irish?

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 10:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Abigail,
GRMA! I was hoping they would do another installment of that show. They should consider touring all over the Gaeltacht to see what the state of the language is there.

Riona,

"Irish is this ancient language. It has served us for thousands of years. I just think it's got tired. I don’t think it has got a place in the modern world."

- Manchán Magan

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Riona
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well then why in tarnation is he on TG4? Why would they employ a dingbat like that to do No Bearla? I think that hypnosis segment would be an absolute riot, good idea.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What they need to do is use one of the TG4 weather girls. I nominate Mairéad Ní Chuaig. ;D

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Antaine
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

part of the second take should be an analysis of irish abroad. have him come to the february daltaí weekend!

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 01:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Why do people like him insist on objectifying languages as if they are not spoken by people but independent entities?

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 02:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

He probably thinks of himself as a realist. Since virtually every Irish speaker is also fluent in English, what place does Irish have?

Why have most Irish people abandoned the language? etc

These are reasonable questions to ask.

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 02:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Although I should add that I think his approach in series 1 definitely backfired. So I'm glad they will be adopting a different approach for No Béarla 2. I mean, we already knew most Irish people had no fluency, so let's move beyond that.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 03:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I mean, we already knew most Irish people had no fluency, so let's move beyond that.

Beyond that, to what?

Seriously, I'm curious.

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 06:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Basically what the second show intends to look at. The state of Irish within the education system, in government. The state of the language in the Gaeltacht.

Seems like the first show was about saying "Hey! Everybody. Look at how few people can speak Irish!"

Wow, what a shock that was. ;D

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Lughaidh
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 06:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In such a program you could also show the contrary: just you make people believe you're just walking in Dublin and in every shop you go in, there's an Irish speaker (you've previously chosen all shops where there are Irish speakers of course), and you can even ask Irish speakers to be on the street where you are, and then you talk to them, making people believe you're just picking people at random. That kind of program doesn't give any evidence.

I heard some US media do exactly the same thing when making cláracha faisnéise in other countries: they do their best so that American people believe everybody speaks English in the other countries.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Riona
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Even though No Bearla didn't prove anything new, one has to admit it had some funny scenes, like when he called the phone-for-sex line and spoke all sweet-like in Irish and the woman hung up on him. In this new series they have to continue to do things that cause amusement, thus getting more people to watch. If they take a purely intellectual approach then less of the common folk will watch. But I suspect it will be OK if they include stuff like that hypnosis scene they mentioned in the article.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 10:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Seems like the first show was about saying "Hey! Everybody. Look at how few people can speak Irish!"

"Wow, what a shock that was. ;D"


I agree. However, as the old saw goes: the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one. As an American I obviously can't know what it's like in Ireland, but I've seen the figures: fully 40.8 of census respondants self-report as being able to speak Irish, as of 2006.

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/Final%20Principal%20Demographic%20Results%202 006.pdf

Manchán's antics may have made a lot of people uncomfortable and perhaps a tidge embarrassed, but if nothing else he disproved the validity of that percentage. If 40.8 of Irish can really speak Irish, he should have been beaten to death with umbrellas, rolling pins and handbags by outraged old ladies listening to his busking song! :)

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Antaine
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Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 12:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But the other side of that coin is that if 40.8% self-report that they speak it, one can imagine that they either a) speak a little or b)wish they did speak it fluently. That's a far cry from being "irrelevent" and "nobody cares."

The 40.8% shows the immediate, (relatively) untapped potential. It's a case of "tá an spiorad fonnmhar ach tá an cholainn fann"...what will it take to bring them on board?

(Message edited by antaine on November 30, 2007)

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 03:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I always cringe when people bring up the 40% figure, but I suppose it does show that there is potential there. As far as people who speak fluent Irish and use it in their day to day routine, it's closer to 3%.

One of the biggest challenges facing the language is that there are no longer Irish adults who can only speak Irish. In other words, no one truly *needs* to speak it to get by. To be understood.

Go to Sweden. A country renowned for producing many younger people with solid English. But see how far you get without a grasp of Swedish in rural areas. You'd be limited.

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Seosamh
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Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 05:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

.... If 40.8 of Irish can really speak Irish, he should have been beaten to death with umbrellas, rolling pins and handbags by outraged old ladies listening to his busking song! :).....


Why? An assault on the social fabric? That premise was incorrect and could not hold up. Whether in good English, good Irish, or school Irish, why would anyone bother to stop and accost an amadán for singing bad drivel, badly, in the street. Beatha duine a thoil - it's a free world. Níor thuig Manchán ceachtar den dá ní, Gaillimh ná muintir Ghaeilge na Gaillimhe.

Ba léir sin ar chuid díobh siúd a shiúil thairis. Ba chuma leo ann nó as é. Mar a chéile a bheinn féin. Ba chuma liom a leithéid i mBéarla nó i nGaeilg.

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Seanfhear
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Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 09:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As a professional broadcaster Manchán's first care is to get himself talked about on the street and around the water cooler. He must approach his subject matter in a manner calculated to cause controversy. The more controversial the program the better. That way he hopes to attract more viewers and subsequently more revenue from advertisers. The program is really about Manchán the TV identity, not the Irish language. The actual content of his show and its opinions and findings are necessarily of secondary importance. His 'survey' can't be taken seriously as it is purely done for entertainment.

Seanfhear

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Seosamh
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Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An ceart ar fad agat a Sheanóir. (The program is really ....)

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Do_chinniúint
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are so many flaws with the Irish census concerning the Irish language I honestly feel that the CSO would be doing themselves, Ireland, and the Irish language a huge favor by removing it from the survey completely.

First of all, the census is a "self-reporting" survey. Which means that 40+ percent of Ireland does not "speak" Irish. It means that 40+ percent of the people who took part in that survey at the time of questioning claimed an "ability" to speak Irish.

The question was:

Can you speak Irish?
If yes how often?

In Volume 9 there are 51 tables of information, however, the one that should seriously be examined is table 35 (Irish Speakers Aged Three And Older Classified By Frequency Of Speaking Irish).

http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=10415

Here we see some serious flaws with the Irish people and how they see their relationship with the Irish language!!!

The first major flaw is that 1.6 million people claimed an ability to speak Irish without having to prove it. This is a serious problem because anyone with 10+ years of Irish at school has earned the right to say they have "some ability" with the language. But without any confirmation, this is not a credible claim. So it might be tempting to say they "can" speak the language.

The second major flaw is that the frequencies of usage are not very specific! For instance looking at the age group 25-34, there are 11,890 people who are claiming they only speak Irish in the education system. Are these people actually in the education system now, or are they claiming that they only spoke Irish in the education system when they were there??? If so...then these 11,890 people should be subtracted and added to the "never speaks" category because they are actually saying they don't speak Irish...they only did it when they were in school...

I will say this until I am six feet under, the question should not be "Can you speak Irish, and how often?" It should be "Do you speak Irish, and how often?"

The reason why I say this is because if you ask this question...you will end up with a more honest and severely lower number that 40+ percent! Why? Because it opens the door to getting rid of people who "never speak," "didn't reply," and "only speak in an educational system." Had this question been asked...1.6 million speaker may have been reduced to only 763,744 people...and in truth I am not impressed with that "less often" category and think it should be removed also because toasting "Sláinte" in a pub, or the occasional phrase here and there, is not speaking Irish in my mind and should not be counted as so.

If you eliminate this category also, you might be able reach numbers as low as 182,170 or 11% of the people who took part in this survey and not 40%.

I know this is a sad line of thinking...but I am willing to bet...a more accurate line of thinking.

And personally I believe this is what Manchán was all about. He was trying to force all those people who claimed an ability with Irish to prove it. His only problem was his methodology. Personally, I think Irish could benefit from more people like him who are going to force the Irish people to prove what are claiming.

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Antaine
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 06:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

except that he's much more likely to inspire moves like removal of Irish requirements from the gardaí and a "why bother" attitude than to whip up productive shame in the general population.

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Do_chinniúint
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But that's just it though...

I really don't think he is whipping up a "why bother" attitude. I think he was actually whipping up the first truly "objective" attitude.

He was a passionate Irish speaker going out and asking people "Seriously, what's going on here, are we just fooling ourselves?" He was forcing people to put away all the patriotic, historic, and personal BS and honestly look at what is happening versus what you think is happening!

I think that people are overlooking a very important factor about him...he speaks fluent Irish. It would have been different if he couldn't speak the language but for some reason, this man has kept the language alive within him which says more about his love of the language than the 450,000+ who said they "can" speak Irish but never "do," or for some reason, didn't feel the need to take the 3 seconds to answer the question!

Yes he was being sarcastic and even a little negative in his approach, but you know what...Irish is in bad shape and getting worse because people are believing that it is getting better when most evidence gives numbers pointing to the opposite. It is going to take people like Manchán to cause a stir.

Yes it is true that he might be the type of person to make people feel like saying "Then why bother." But then he might, just might...also be the type of person to make people feel like saying "You know what, he's right and we are going to do something about it."

And again...I honestly feel this is what he was trying to do.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

He was a passionate Irish speaker



He is not a passionate Irish speaker. Or at least, he is not passionate about speaking Irish.

He speaks Irish because his family thought it was important, not because he does. He feels (and has written) that he was saddled with a useless corpse.

He deliberately ignored anybody who was going to speak Irish to him in the first series, which was edited to prove his thesis.

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Do_chinniúint
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 01:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh I will agree 100% that he is not passionate about speaking Irish...but that doesn't mean he isn't a passionate Irish speaker.

If he had no passion for it...then why does he still do it? He may not like speaking Irish, he may feel that it is a waste of time...but he still does it? Why?

Now I am not psychologist, but I have read enough self-help books to recognize what is called a "self-justification complex." This is when there is something about us that we are consciously aware of that goes against what we interpret as being normal. This awareness causes us to scrutinize this aspect of us to the point of denial in order to justify it as being an acceptable part of who we are.

He says that he did not choose to speak the language, that it was forced on him. There is truth to this statement, however, the moment the forces were no longer there he continued to allow Irish to be a part of his life. This means that on some level, even an unconscious one, he must accept and even admire Irish.

He may be saying "NO," but look at what his behavior...it is actually saying something else.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on December 01, 2007)

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Abigail
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 03:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

on some level, even an unconscious one, he must accept and even admire Irish.
Or perhaps he realizes that continuing to speak Irish is a good career move. If he switched to English-language broadcasting now, he'd have a flurry of publicity about that, and then he'd slide quietly off into oblivion. (English-language travel journalism is a much more crowded field, as is English-language blatherskitery about the state of Irish. Frankly I don't think he's good enough to make it to the top in either one.)

the moment the forces were no longer there he continued to allow Irish to be a part of his life.
He says himself that he quit speaking it after that, except in the Gaeltacht. Yes, he's since gone back and made a career out of it; nothing wrong with that, but let's not mistake it for linguistic passion.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Do_chinniúint
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 04:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

LOL...fair enough, I suppose passion is like beauty in that it remains in the eye of the beholder ;0)

I just wish that people would not be so quick to judge him or what he has done. All he has done, is said publicly what most people have been saying privately.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 04:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is also an interesting case study in "projection," since we're talking psychology here.

In my case, I've seen a few episodes of Nó Bearla but have virtually no knowledge of Manchán beyond what I've seen there. I simply assumed that he was a proponent of the Irish language and was doing this to make people aware of the elephant in the living room that nobody wants to acknowledge, in an effort to bring greater resources to bear to support the language.

It never occurred to me that his agenda might be quite different.

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Mickrua
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 04:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

ceapaim féin gur cheart don Rialtas Cigirí Teangan a chur thart timpeall na Gaeltachta ag fáill amach go bhfuil gach duine ag labhairt Teanga na Banríona mar a bhí an scéal sa leabhar greannmhar " An Béal Bocht" a scríobh Myles na gCopaleen. B'fhéidir go mbeadh fiú amháin na cearcaï agus na mucaï ag labhairt na teangan nuair a thiocfadh na Cigirí .

(Message edited by mickrua on December 01, 2007)

(Message edited by mickrua on December 01, 2007)

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 04:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Irish is in bad shape and getting worse because people are believing that it is getting better when most evidence gives numbers pointing to the opposite."

Agreed. I think too many people are putting too much faith into the Gaelscoils. The Gaeltacht is shrinking. Arguably the number of native speakers is dwindling as well.

At least his show got people talking. Same with Fine Gael and the whole issue of Irish being compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 05:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gaelscoils are a red herring as language, from one perspective, is composed of different co-located elements (sounds, grammar, lexical entries) that work to create liason, colligation, and collocation as well as turns of phrase and senses of expression that appear in ones style of speech (just compare registrars within dialects such as Hiberno-English to Redneck God's country speech or between languages entirely).

You can compromise so much, but structurally, the speech and very world experience and stylistic preferences of gaeilscoil urban speakers is so different to that of good native speakers, that what they speak cannot be seriously called the same language, unless one is trying to pretend or is misguided.

A strong language is where it's numbers are increasing, it's speakers are in every social class, from billionaire to pauper, whose civil institutions use it, that a lover's words are whispered in, that people mourn and rejoice in, that drunks ravel in, in whose shape and every little turn dries with the ink on life and death legal contracts. A language where young kids skip along the street to singing songs screwplated by the advertising that surrounds them, and when they are born, grow, love and die, the language they and their peers express their feelings thru.

That does not sound like Irish. Since it is not Irish, surely some sort of alternative is required? No?

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Aonghus
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 09:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But talk changes nothing.
There has been plenty of talk since the state was founded.

The things that mattered were actions, always from the grassroots.

RnaG
TnaG (now TG4)
The Official Languages Act
Gaelscoileanna
Offical Status in Europe

All of these were/are due to grass roots campaigns in the face of civil service opposition. And all of them have provided employment opportunities for native speakers.

The key to survival of the Gaeltacht is employment. That is why the Gaeltacht is in decline; because Irish has never been the key to employment, but lack of English has been a bar.

However, all of the above bar gaelscoileanna (and to a smaller degree TG4) do not have markets outside existing Irish speakers.

I see no reason why there should not be small, high value add companies in the Gaeltacht whose working language is Irish even if they use English (and ideally other languages) to deal with the outside world.

I hope UnaG is working on this. I believe they are.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An dream seo, mar shampla!
http://www.louismulcahy.com/index.asp

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Do_chinniúint
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I will agree with both the comments made by Aonghus that employment and grassroots are essential to the growth of the Irish language.

However, I think they may be a little more complicated to deal with than a more closed system like "education" because of the ideological factors that drive them.

What I mean is that when you talk about employment, we begin to include the ultimate force which is driving most modern western cultures and societies...money. A sudden increase in Irish, even on a small scale, will cause a sudden loss of money because business will have to go through a loss of productivity during a transition period in order to adjust to the introduction of what to most of them will be a "foreign language." When I was in Economics in college my teacher like to use a lemon analogy talking about new business ideologies:

"The sour taste of the lemon will forever cause a person to hesitate in buying it, even when they know that there a 1000 positive and productive things that can come from it."

And a "grassroots campaign" falls into the same boat in my opinion. For those who don't know what "grassroots" are, they are actions or ideas that are driven by the common people.

The problem with "grassroots" groups...is that they are rarely the "common" people. They are usually special interest groups with the money to back their interests. Now I am not trying discredit them because as Aonghus mentioned, huge strides have been taken by the "grassroots" movement.

But in my opinion, in order for any serious "grassroots" campaign to save Irish, the "common people" is going to have to include the majority of the Irish people. And sadly, that is not going to happen any time soon. I am not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that I would not put any great faith into this method of salvation. Right now the active groups are just too small, too isolated, and too under funded to do anything serious.

Now I do not want to be negative about these groups, I support them on a regular basis. I know a few charities that would put a kill contract out for me if they knew the type of donations I have made to some of these organizations over the years ;0)

I think a good comparison for these "grassroots" groups is that of a blood donor.

"These "grassroots" groups have been the blood donors by which the Irish language has stayed alive so far. But a pint of blood is only so good as its supply being more than its demand."

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on December 02, 2007)

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Aonghus
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 01:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

How many Bolsheviks were there in 1917?

All change is driven by small groups.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

By the way, don't underestimate the existing groups.

The Hotel for Oireachtas na Samhna 2008 - i.e. November next year - is booked out already.

http://www.antoireachtas.ie/staging_007/index.php?page=loistin_samhain&tid=6&sid =15

And Stádas got 5000 people on the streets - which is a large demonstration by Dublin standards.

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Paul (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 03:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,

I'd love to see a much-improved bus system in the Gaeltachts, esp. in Conamara. There are plenty of jobs in Galway, but if you live in Ros Muc, An Cheathrú Rua, or Leitir Mór, it's hard/impossible to commute into the city by bus.

If they had services like this, people would be able to stay in the Gaeltachaí, and not be forced to move for economic reasons.

Le meas, Paul

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Do_chinniúint
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Post Number: 202
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 05:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As I have said, I am not underestimating these small groups...

I am merely saying that I do not foresee them being the answer to the problem of increasing Irish speaking numbers. Will they play a large part, absolutely...but it is going to take something else I think.

Also, I wouldn't consider the Bolsheviks of early 1900's Russia as the ideal model for the type of change needed..LOL...we want to increase the numbers and bring stability to the current Ireland, not take over, purge, and create a new one. ;0)

Sometimes it almost feels like people are waiting for a single event...or...individual to change things. And I am sorry, but never in the history of mankind has a single event or person caused such a massive change by themselves, and if you believe otherwise I challenge you to prove it ;0)

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Antaine
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Post Number: 1147
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 08:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What about Upton Sinclair's novel The Jungle? Prompted the creation of the FDA and revolutionized the way food was processed/handled in the western world (and now globally)?

What about WWII/Hitler and global attitudes toward genocide?

What about major religious leaders and their societies (Jesus, Mohammed, reformation leaders, etc)?

What about the execution of the 1916 Rising leadership and the push for independence?

What about MLK and the civil rights mov't in the US?

Single persons/events changing countries or having a global effect are known, but, of course, rare. It's always possible something like that could happen for Irish, but it shouldn't be "the game plan."

I sometimes think half-jokingly that if the Irish gov't dissolved the Gaeltacht and removed Irish from its current official position people might get whipped up enough to do it for spite, but I don't recommend testing those waters.

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Do_chinniúint
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sorry, if I really wanted to I could shoot down all of your examples with great details...but that doesn't really do any good and I am not trying to start of fight here with anyone.

But for some of the examples you listed...something to think about and maybe look into???

Upton Sinclair was not the first person to write about the horrible sanitation standards in of the packing houses...his work is just quoted more.

Hitler only continued the work of his predecessor, and would never have been known had it not been for the Nazi Party.

Not to step on toes...but...while it is true that most historians believe that there probably was someone...there is still no conclusive proof of a historical Jesus. In fact, a lot of historians contribute Christianity to Paul and not Jesus. While Mohammed gets most of the credit, do not be fooled...most of his fame comes from his military conquests and take over during the vacuum of the fallen Empire...and even then it was his followers and not himself.

MLK again the spokesman for group people all working for the same thing, at the same time.

1916 an event that looks like the beginning of a movement for Independence was just another event in a long chain of events...the reason why it is remembered is because of how it went down.

History focuses on single events and people because it is easier to do. I am not saying anything bad about the people or events...but they can't be said to be the single catalysts for any of the changes they made...they were just the centerpieces history had concentrated on.

Now having said all that...it is important to point out a very important fact about all of the examples mentioned above. If it were not for these people making a stir...it is very possible that the changes they helped bring about would never have happened. So one cannot deny their importance.

And in that way...bringing it back to Manchán and No Béarla...he or people like him maybe the center figures needed for a massive future change for Irish.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on December 02, 2007)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on December 02, 2007)

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Do_chinniúint
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Post Number: 204
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

LOL...

I just got to reading that post and I can already see the "Debate Meter" rising to maximum ;0)

It's just that I think the Greeks said it best a long time ago...

When asked how he created all of his original works Sophocles said, "My works are not original. Originality is nothing more than making old things new and taking credit for it."

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6579
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 06:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Increasing the number of Irish speakers in the Galltacht is not the answer to preserving the Gaeltacht.

Nor is bussing them out of the Gaeltacht to jobs in the Galltacht.

Do Chinnúint, I really feel you are too remote from the situation on the ground in Ireland, and the breadth of the debate in Ireland. This is also because a lot of that debate is in Irish.

I suggest you read "Who needs Irish" for more scope.
http://www.veritas.ie/veritas/asp/product.asp?pr_code=1853907774

I believe that positive things are happening with regard both to Irish and to the Gaeltacht.

The problem since the foundation of the State has been a lack of a strategy with acheivable aims, and a lack of Planning.

Both are now being addressed.

Of course this takes time.

http://www.udaras.ie/index.php/roghchlr_corparideach_/eolas_faoin_dars/foilseach in_/doicimid_straitise_/1373

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeilge/RaiteasileithnaGaeilge2006/

The Government Plan to fulfil the statement of Strategy made around this time last year will be ready next year.

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 6581
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh, and to bring it back to Manchán.

A light entertainment program, which is what No Béarla is, will make no difference. Especially one which panders to those who argue Irish is dead.

Ask Reg Hindley! Most people never got beyond the title of his work "The Death of the Irish Language" - a choice of title he now regrets.

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=903&viewby=date

quote:

Duirt sé go raibh brón ar leith air go raibh naimhde na Gaeilge ag baint úsáide as an saothar a fhoilsigh sé i 1990 chun an teanga a bhrú faoi chois.
"Táim ar son athbheochan na Gaeilge i bhfírinne cé go raibh éadochas orm faoin staid ina raibh an teanga."


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Seosamh
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Username: Seosamh

Post Number: 118
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 09:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus a dúirt, agus tagaim leis: Do Chinnúint, I really feel you are too remote from the situation on the ground in Ireland, and the breadth of the debate in Ireland. This is also because a lot of that debate is in Irish.

Cuir an cheist seo ort féin: An suíomh de chuid 'a passionate Irish speaker' an suíomh iomlán Béarla seo?: http://www.manchan.com/

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1148
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

oh, you meant a single person in a total vacuum of prior persons/events brought to bear on a single thing (in this case, Gaeilge renaissance)...you're right, such a thing has never happened, but would also not be the case with Irish since people and organizations have been working on that for 150 years. My point was that it has happened that a single person or even provided a catalyst for worldwide change. Yes, Sinclair was not the only one to ever write on the subject, but it was his book that provided the impetus for creation of the FDA and all the laws and standards etc that have come from that. Things we could not imagine accepting any other way today.

Can one charasmatic figure or event single-handedly save Irish? Of course not, since the goal of "saving Irish" is to have millions of speakers, so it will always be "his followers" who do the actual saving of the language. Can one celeb, filmmaker, author etc provide the catalyst for others to follow in his/her footsteps, each one a further catalyst as a movement expands and takes shape? Surely, it's got to start SOMEwhere. Look back to the thread on esperanto...ONE guy has an idea, creates a language which today claims 2 million speakers.

Now, I'm not saying it's going to happen for Irish that way, or that it would be anything other than foolish for Irish language enthusiasts or the Irish people to wait for some kind of Gaeilge-messiah to swoop down, whip up support and "save the language." I just meant that such a thing, however unlikely, was possible. It's also possible that I'll find a winning lottery ticket while walking to my car tonight - I'm not basing my retirement on it.

Personally, I feel that the methods used to debilitate Irish and favor english simply need to be reversed. We know how to create language shift in Ireland, we saw the language shift to english. The method is obviously effective and it's some form of crazy to think that another method can be applied, leaving english in its place, not making it *absolutely essential* and/or economically beneficial to speak Irish, and be nearly as effective.

It's long been my opinion that the concept of "the gaeltact" is the single most injurious thing the Irish gov't has done to the langauge. Irish needs at least to be as spoken in Ireland as english is in the Netherlands. It's not enough for people to "want" to speak Irish, or even "wish" they knew how (although that can be a starting point). They need to *need* to speak Irish - if for nothing else than dealing with the government.

That is what manchan was getting at, I think, that nobody *needs* to speak Irish to do ANYTHING. And so people follow the path of least resistence and simply don't. The value in his program was to get people saying, "he's right, how do we fix that?"

The questions he raised at the end, however, were basically, "who cares? why bother saving it when we're all speaking english anyway?" And that's the dangerous part. From a practical perspective, there is no reason to be a proponent of one language over another. Irish society and government function just fine in english, Irish wouldn't help them to function any more efficiently.

If anything a change would make them function less efficiently, so we must ask for what would that price be paid and is it worth it? Ireland would be getting greater distinctiveness to the culture, regaining a world perspective through langauge that would be the descendant of their own, native ways of knowing things, and showing the world that bigotry and cultural genocide such as was the british domination of Ireland should not be allowed to succeed. If the Irish language dies, the centuries of attempts to extinguish that central part of the distinctive Irish culture are allowed to be successful.

It's those two sides of the same manchan presentation that seem to fuel the differing opinions on what he was doing, and the effect he had.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6583
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 04:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine,

I don't think anybody has the reestablishment of Irish as a vernacular in all of Ireland as their goal anymore.

That moment has passed, and it would require a Stalin rather than Bolsheviks to return to it!

The Gaeltacht is not the creation of the government.
The Gaeltacht as a living community of Irish speakers exists, although it is shrinking.

Without it Irish will decline to a learned patois.

Therefore the Gaeltacht must be saved; by making it viable for people to live and work there in a 21st Century way.

And I see signs of that happening in earnest: ÚnaG looking at not just any jobs; but jobs which benefit and require the language; serious application of planning laws, etc.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 205
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 05:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah...I see where you were coming from Antaine, that's one of the draw backs of not being able to chat one-on-one in real time environment.

Aonghus, you may be correct in that I am too far away from the situation. I am willing to accept this, however, I have been to Ireland during the summer for the last five years, and it's the same thing every year. In truth...that's why I go there ;0) But by being so far away I am able to see things that those in the thick of it cannot. Granted all I can do is comment, but then I can say the things that some people can't.

I will disagree with one thing that was said, the increasing of Irish speakers in the Galltacht should be placed above the preservation of the Gaeltacht. I firmly believe their should only be one Gaeltacht, and we should call it Ireland.

One thing Manchán said that was spot on...he said, "I only speak it, and hear it spoken in the Gaeltacht."

Do you know how annoying it is visit Dublin each summer and speak to people who take pride in Irish being an official language of their country, but then turn around and tell me that in order to hear it, I have to go out west to some rural community....WHY!!! If Irish is truly a language of Ireland, shouldn't I be able to go to all parts of Ireland and hear it? Why do I have to go to some specific small part of Ireland to hear it?

It makes no logical sense...I think it's time to put down the pints because the beer goggles are causing some serious vision problems.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6590
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 06:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cloisfidh tú gaeilge i mBÁC, ach beidh ort í a lorg.

The best analogy is Swedish in Finland.
You will hear Finns speak Swedish in Helsinki; but it will be easier to hear on the Aland islands.

Turning all of Ireland into a Gaeltacht is a utopia which is not acheivable; the critical mass of fluent speakers is no longer there.

I recommend this pamphlet:
http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=4283

We need to strengthen the existing Gaeltachtaí as communities in which Irish is spoken; and we need to found new ones;

http://bailegaelach.com/

Both are being addressed currently.

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Seosamh
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Username: Seosamh

Post Number: 119
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 07:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seo duine atá ar aon fhocal le Manchán mar le neambrí na Gaeilge agus faoina hathbheochaint:-

... Is miotas eile í an Ghaeilge, dar leis. Is tionscadal í an Ghaeilge “ar theip go tubaisteach air. Is mithid dúinn a admháil gur cur i gcéill atá i gceist – the emperor is naked! Cur amú acmhainní agus fuinnimh atá inti ar gá dúinn a bheith réadúil fúithi anois. Níl aon rud bainte amach ó thaobh an teanga a chur ar bhonn slán. Tá sí ar leaba a báis.

Féach cé dúirt:
http://www.beo.ie/?page=agallamh_beo&content_id=504

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6594
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 08:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá cúis éigin ag Myers dá naimhdeas.
Baineadh feidhm as an nGaeilge mar dhris cosáín chun ardú céime a dhiultú dá athair ar mhaithe le saighdiúr mhaith pairtí éigin, más buan mo chuimhne.

Ach tá ionracas agus seasmhacht ag baint le Myers, cé go gcreidim go bhfuil sé aibhéileach agus ar strae.

Is mar ghinteoir litreacha chuig an eagarthóir a thuilleadh sé a bheatha.

Seans gur mian le Manchán a sciar den cáca sin a bhaint amach freisin.



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