According to McBain's dictionary, and several other sources, this word is derived from the Latin Aurum. I'm well aware that many Irish words have their origins in Latin but this really surprised me.

I find it difficult to believe the early Irish didn't have a word for something as ubiquitous as gold before contact with the Latin language.

Is it inconceivable that ór (including it's earlier forms) could have been the Irish form all along going back to before the Celtic and Italic branches of the Indo-European 'tree' diverged?

Ceist mhaith, ach is é an chaoi go bhfuil an ceart ag MacBain. Phléigh muid an cheist seo ar Old-Irish-L tamall ó shin, i Meitheamh 2005. An t-ainm atá ar an snáithe ná "before ór?". Tá sé ar fáil sa chartlann: https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OLD-IRISH-L

Seo agat teachtaireacht as an snáithe sin:


> Maybe the missing Celtic word is lurking out there in a Gaulish or
> Celtiberian inscription, just waiting to be recognized?

That's what I have been suspecting all along, but which word is it???
It must be out there somewhere. After all, "silver", PC *arganto-, is
not so uncommon in the onomastics.

From an IE point of view, a number of formations could be expected:

1. *h2ews(s)o- (in Latin "aurum"), which would give PC *auso-

2. various formations from the root *g'hel (e.g. Proto-Germanic
*gul?a-; Proto-Slavic *zolto; Lithuanian z^eltas, Indic híranya-,
Avestan zaranya- etc.)

The first word would probably have in many instances become
homophonous with *ausos- "ear". On the other hand, the second root is
well attested in Celtic, e.g. OIr. "gel" "bright", Cymr. "gell"
"yellow", Gaul. *gi/eluo- "yellow", PC *glano- "pure", PC *glasto-
"blue, green..." Maybe one of these words was a designation for
"gold", too, but became replaced by "aurum", because the semantics of
the inherited word were to vague?

quote:

1. *h2ews(s)o- (in Latin "aurum"), which would give PC *auso-

Which would give 'ua' in Modern Irish, ’dé do bharúil a Dhennis?

Gell means light brown in Breton.

Thanks for the link.
Another word similar to this occurred to me - 'cat'.
I can't remember where I read this but I'm sure it was included in a list of words derived from Latin.
Could the original word for cat (assuming this isn't it) have been one of those taboo animal names?

It is entirely possible that the Latin-derived word replaced an older Celtic word. Something like this apparently happened with English "sore", cognate with German "sehr", meaning "very", as in "the shepherds were sore afraid". "Sore" has been replaced in English by "very", derived (they say) from French "vrais", probably while French had more prestige than English.

Then again, dictionary writers are not above presenting their guesses as facts. I have seen 3 incompatible derivations offered for "shanty" and none of the dictionaries suggested that there was any question. For that matter, I can't believe that "so long" comes from a Malay version of "salaam" when "slán" is so much closer to home.

quote:

English by "very", derived (they say) from French "vrais",

"vrai", which means "true".

Vraiment, a Lughaidh. But after I posted it, I couldn't edit it to correct the spelling. Do you know how a guest can edit his post?

you can't. It is one of the priviledges which make registration worthwhile!

quote:

Another word similar to this occurred to me - 'cat'.

Deirtear uaireanta gur ón Laidin a tháinig sé, ach is féidir gur scaipeadh an t-ainm in éindí leis an ainmhí ar fud na hEorpa sách luath, mar tá an focal céanna le fáil sa Ghearmándais ("kazza"), sa Slaivis, etc. De réir LEIA, tá sé vraisemblable qu'il s'étendu à tout le Nord-Ouest de l'Europe en même temps que l'animal, et que sous la forme commune, *katto- ou *kattâ-, il est de provenance africaine.

Céard é Ghearmándais?

(Katze sa Ghearmáinis, ach glacaim leis gur teanga eile atá i gceist agat?)

De réir mo Herkunftswörterbuch ó Duden:

quote:

Der Name der Katze ist ein altes Wanderwort, das seit dem ausgehenden Altertum in fast allen europäischen Sprachen erscheint vgl. z.B. die Kelt. Sippe von air. cat, spätlat. catta, cattus, mgriech. kátta und die baltoslaw. Sippe russ. kot. Aus welcher Sprache der Katzenname stammt ist unklar. Am ehesten handelt es sich um ein aus einem Lockruf entwickeltes nordgerm. Wort, das ursprunglich die Wildkatze bedeutet. Möglich ist auch dass der Katzenname aus einer nordafrikan. Sprach stammt(vgl. nubisch Kadis) unbd durch die Kelten vermittellt würde

Fánfhocal ársa is ea ainm an chait, atá le fáil ó deireadh an chianaimsir i ngach teanga san Eoraip. Ní léir cén teanga as a dtagann sé. Is dóichí gur as glaoch fiaigh de chuid na Gearmáinise thuaidh a d'fhorbair sé. Is féidir freisin gurbh as teanga de chuid na hAfraice thuaidh a tháinig, agus gurbh iad na Ceiltigh a scaip.

Gearmándais = Germanic

Bhí orm an focal "Lockruf" a chuardach ó nach raibh sé agam. "Mating call" a chiallaíonn sé de réir an fhoclóra atá agam. An é an chaoi gur féidir go dtáinig an focal nordgerm. ó ghlao cúplála an ainmhí féin??

(Message edited by dennis on November 26, 2007)

Faigh foclóir níos cuimsithí!

Is iomaí brí ag locken

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=hPXz..&search=locken

An chiall a bhain mise as an alt ná glaoch chun an tainmhí a mhealladh. Is fíor go mbíonn aithris ar ghlao an ainmhí fhéin i gceist go minic ansin.