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Alun (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 10:10 am: |
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Beannachtaí, There are a few Irish surnames that seem to be pronounced rather exceptionally in the the US. One group of names that comes to mind is those with a medial H. For example Fahy as Fay, MacMahon as McMann, Flaherty and Doherty sounding like Flarrity or Dorrity, Maher as Marr, etc. The names that seem to keep something of the medial H usually have to be rendered as FAYhee, KAYhill,etc. The one name I wonder about is Mahony which I have heard in Ireland as MAhony and is invariably pronounced maHOny in the States. It occurred to me that, in Irish, it may have been pronounced ó mahÚna in Munster. Maybe the US pronunciation is closer to the original? An afterthought, Costello(e) is usually cosTELLo in the US (causing many to regard it as an Italian surname) but COStello in Ireland, I believe. |
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Josh (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 10:31 am: |
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I didn't know Costello was an originally Irish surname. How was it originally spelt? I wonder if Elvis was an Irish name too :-) |
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Alun (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 12:30 pm: |
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It is of Norman origin was was originally Mac Oisdealbh first anglicised as MacCostello. There is a barony in Co. Mayo with the same name. The Italian-American mobster Frank Costello was born Francesco Castiglia and the actor-comedian Lou Costello was born Cristillo. Elvis Costello was born Declan McManus. |
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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 01:00 pm: |
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I know someone from Kildare in Ireland who pronounces his surname, (which is Maher), as Marr. (And he's full-blood Irish). Anyway these aren't Irish surnames, but rather English-language imitations of Irish surnames. For instance, my own surname, which is Irish, is Ó hÉilidhe, even though most of my relatives go by an English-language imitation of it. Is there a case of this elsewhere in the world where a foreign nation imposed itself on another and came up with imitations for its surnames? Seems a little strange when you look at it for what it is... I mean imagine Japan conquering Belgium and telling Mr van Acker that his new name is Mr Vanackasoomi... ? While I don't deny the ancestral link between myself and people who go by an English-language imitation of my surname, I still wouldn't label these surnames as outright Irish. There's also a few Irish surnames whose imitation is identical to a fully-fledged English surname, so you can't always be sure that a person with such a surname came from Irish ancestry. |
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Fearn
Member Username: Fearn
Post Number: 687 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 01:20 pm: |
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Bhal, san meánaoiseann san Eoraip, ba ghnáth leaganacha Laidne a chur ar ainmneacha dúchais m.sh Copernicus ar Kopernik,Cristopher Columbus ar an Iodáileach Colombo; tugann an Sasanach John Cabot ar Giavianni Caboto, 7rl. An chuimhin leat Kunte Kinte? nó Toby mar a b'fhearr aithne air. Sea, tá fhios agam gur carachtar ficsin é, ach fós...Nach iomaí ainm agus sloinneadh Afraiceach a bhfuil leagan Béarla, Fraincis, Portaingilise air? Bíonn ainmneacha is sloinnte Béarla ar bhundúchasaigh SAM agus na hAstráile. Ó, agus bhí riamh ainmneacha Seapáinise ar ainmneacha Sínise. Nós mós leathan é |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:02 pm: |
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So, how is Ó Mathúna pronounced in Munster? o: 'mahu:na or o: ma'hu:na? |
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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:02 pm: |
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quote:Bhal, san meánaoiseann san Eoraip, ba ghnáth leaganacha Laidne a chur ar ainmneacha dúchais m.sh Copernicus ar Kopernik,Cristopher Columbus ar an Iodáileach Colombo; tugann an Sasanach John Cabot ar Giavianni Caboto, 7rl. Ceapaim go mb'fhearr leis na daoinibh seo (dá mbeifidís beo go fóill inniubh!) go dtabharfaí a n-ainmneacha cearta orthu. Cad a cheapfá dá mbeadh na Seapánaigh ag tabhairt "Einsteineasumo" ar "Einstein", nó "Newtanayakasumo" ar "Newton"? Nach gcuirfeá an cheist cén fáth a bhfuil siad ag cumadh ainmneacha do dhaoinibh in ionad a n-ainmneacha cearta a úsáid? Tá fhios agam go dteastaíonn ó na Síneachaibh 's ó na Vítneamachaibh, ainmneacha Sasanacha a roghnú dóibh féin nuair a thaganns siad chun na hEorpa, ach ceapaim gurb é a fháth sin ná gur deacair linn a n-ainmneacha cearta a rá. Tá aithne agam ar fhear Vítneamach a dtugaim "David" air, agus fuaimeann a fhíorainm cosúil leis an "plop" a chloistear nuair a scaoiltear cloch in uisce! |
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Josh (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:05 pm: |
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What is even odder is when the same surname is anglicized differently in different parts of Ireland, eg Twohey, Toohig. |
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Josh (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:06 pm: |
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Qn: So, how is Ó Mathúna pronounced in Munster? o: 'mahu:na or o: ma'hu:na? I think the latter. |
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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:47 pm: |
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I've only ever heard it as "Ó Ma THÚN a" If the stress were on "ma" rather than "thún", then I don't think anyone would pronounce the "ú" as a long vowel; you'd be left with "Ó Ma thu na". |
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Alun (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:54 pm: |
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GRMA, I have even seen Duhig for Duffy, I think the ending with -g is Munster. As far as a country having their names altered, consider all the other Celtic-speaking lands. |
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Toofless G. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 12:18 pm: |
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Well, "ask, and ye shall receive"! I watched "The Departed" the other night, and was just wondering about the name "Costello" and how curious it was to me that it is an Irish name when it sounds so Italian. Thanks for the explanation! :) |
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Domhnall
Member Username: Domhnall
Post Number: 1280 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 01:47 pm: |
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American's seem to have taken their own slant on some Irish forenames too. "Shaun" springs to mind... A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 330 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 07:44 pm: |
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"American's seem to have taken their own slant on some Irish forenames too. "Shaun" springs to mind..." A Dhomhnaill Eile - "Shawn" is also a very common variant over here, and I've seen it applied to females as well as males. Two very popular girls' names among American Irish are "Kathleen" (I have two cousins with this name) and "Colleen." I went to college with an American Irish girl whose name was Siobhán (actually spelled correctly, and not turned into "Shuhvonn" or whatever), and she had long since resigned herself to being called "SEYE-oh-bane," etc. I once worked with an Irish woman (no clue where in Ireland she was from) whose name was "Eavan," spelled just like that. |
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toofless (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 01:19 am: |
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whose name was Siobhán (actually spelled correctly, and not turned into "Shuhvonn" or whatever Ok, I give: how is Siobhán really pronounced? At pain of being pronounced a moron, I really DID think it was supposed to be pronounced "Shuhvonn", or something close to that... |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2116 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 03:05 am: |
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Siobhán > shih-VAWN in Munster, SHOO-ahn in Ulster, I think. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Éad Sráiditheoir (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 04:10 pm: |
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Re: Duffy. Since the Gaelic is Dubhthaigh (genitive of Dubhthach), Duhig makes sense as a Munster version. The name also appeared in Ogham as Dovatuci. By the way, does anybody know if all those names bronounced as Kate-linn were inspired by Irish Caitlín? |
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 331 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 04:39 pm: |
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"Ok, I give: how is Siobhán really pronounced? At pain of being pronounced a moron, I really DID think it was supposed to be pronounced "Shuhvonn", or something close to that..." It is pronounced as you say. I was pointing out that because she didn't dumb down the spelling to some English phonetic rendering, people invariably mispronounced it. |
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 332 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 04:44 pm: |
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(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_Aireachtaigh on November 18, 2007) |
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 1263 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 11:39 pm: |
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Yes all those Katelyn variants come from Caitlin which Americans pronounce as Katelyn. I dispise it when Americans name a girl Caitlin (spelled that way) and pronounce it wrong. That is why I love that my stepsister's name is spelled Katelyn. That is a good spelling for the American pronunciation to be sure. Beir bua agus beannacht |
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Fearn
Member Username: Fearn
Post Number: 690 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 12:15 pm: |
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A Thomáis, +Ceapaim go mb'fhearr leis na daoinibh seo (dá mbeifidís beo go fóill inniubh!) go dtabharfaí a n-ainmneacha cearta orthu. =seans go bhfuil an ceart agat +Cad a cheapfá dá mbeadh na Seapánaigh ag tabhairt "Einsteineasumo" ar "Einstein", nó "Newtanayakasumo" ar "Newton"? =Ní ghoinfeadh sé m'aire muis! +Nach gcuirfeá an cheist cén fáth a bhfuil siad ag cumadh ainmneacha do dhaoinibh in ionad a n-ainmneacha cearta a úsáid? = chun go dtagfadh siad lena nós fuaimnithe féin, gan dabht +Tá fhios agam go dteastaíonn ó na Síneachaibh 's ó na Vítneamachaibh, ainmneacha Sasanacha a roghnú dóibh féin nuair a thaganns siad chun na hEorpa, ach ceapaim gurb é a fháth sin ná gur deacair linn a n-ainmneacha cearta a rá. = Abair é. +Tá aithne agam ar fhear Vítneamach a dtugaim "David" air, agus fuaimeann a fhíorainm cosúil leis an "plop" a chloistear nuair a scaoiltear cloch in uisce! = Aidhe! Sin an fhadhb |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 03:17 pm: |
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Riona: I find it silly that you'd despise Americans saying Caitlin as "kate-lynn". The name "Caitlín" in Irish comes from the French "Cateline" which was an Old French form of "Catherine". So it seems the way that the Irish got the name "Caitlín" was by mispronouncing a French name. The Americans, in turn, get the name Katelyn by mispronouncing the Irish version. |
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