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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (November-December) » Archive through November 29, 2007 » Gaelscoil pupils better than average in English Reading: « Previous Next »

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6479
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 06:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=2582&viewby=date

quote:

De réir na hanailíse a rinneadh ar na torthaí ar na scrúduithe caighdeánaithe ar bhreis is 3,000 dalta, ó ranganna 2 agus 5, bhí difear suntasach idir caighdeán léitheoireachta na ndaltaí sa dá rang seo nuair a cuireadh i gcomparáid iad leis an meán náisiúnta. Bhí os cionn 10% níos mó daltaí ó ghaelscoileanna ag aimsiú marcanna sa trian is airde (7-10) agus níos mó ná 10% níos lú ag aimsiú marcanna sa trian is ísle.
Bhí na torthaí seo níos fearr arís do dhaltaí i ngaelscoileanna a chleacht tumoideachas iomlán ar feadh scoilbhliana amháin ar a laghad agus léirigh na torthaí fosta gur sna luathranganna is mó a shealbhaigh páistí na scileanna léitheoireachta agus gur beag an feabhas a tháinig idir ranganna 2 agus 5.



Analysis of standardised English literacy tests reveals that Gaelscoil pupils, including those in disadvantaged areas, outperform English medium schools in English literacy.

More from Lá:
http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=2583&viewby=date

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Seosamh
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Username: Seosamh

Post Number: 104
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 12:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sin é an scéal is tábhachtaí inniu a Aonghuis, go raibh maith agat. Ba cheart a fhoilsiú i bhfad is i ngar.

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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 01:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The outcome of this study is indeed positive for the Irish language, and even though I wouldn't like to discredit it in any way, it would be naive and probably dishonest too to overlook the other differences between Irish-language schools and English-language schools which may be impacting the findings. For one, all gaelscoileanna are mixed-gender as far as I know, while many (if not the majority) of English-language schools are gender-segregated. Also, on average, you'll see a vast socio-economic difference between the kids who go to Irish schools and the kids who go to English schools -- I mean have you ever seen a working class little gurrier going to an Irish school throwing stones at buses and writing his name with permanent marker on the bus window? I grew up in a working class area and I never saw such a thing... but I saw plenty of English-language-school-going kids doing this sort of stuff. Or have you ever seen a member of the Traveling Community attend an Irish school? Whether we like it or not, the 8-year-old daughter of a lawyer living in affluence in Blackrock is far more likely to be a better reader than the 8-year-old daughter of a Meath-street-fruit-seller living in a rundown set of flats. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but that's the thing about exceptions... they're exceptional.

Again I don't mean to piss on the fire whenever someone says something good about the Irish language, but it's in my nature to be skeptical whenever someone throws "findings" in front of me, whether they be positive or negative. The biggest impact on a child's learning is whether you sit drinking beer blaring football matches on the telly while your kid is trying to do their homework, or whether you encourage them to read a book and actually sit down and help them read it. Worry about that kind of stuff well before you decide on what kind of school you want. And at the end of the day, even if your child's English-reading skills were to suffer if you sent them to an Irish-speaking school, is that a price you're more than willing to pay? It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I know a girl who can speak a few languages very fluently: English, Spanish, French being three of them (she moved around a lot as a kid). When she's speaking English, she occasionally gets lost for words and says "Oh God I know the word I want to say in Spanish but I can't think of it in English". (Most recently one such word was "threat" as in "global terror threat"). Still though, if you gave me the option of:

a) Only being able to speak English, but speaking it excellently.
b) Being able to speak three languages, but only being able to speak them extremely well.

, then I'd gladly choose the latter.

So, there may or there may not be trade-offs when it comes to sending your kid to an Irish school... but if you've much of an interest in the Irish language then such trade-offs probably seem well worth it. (And that's without mentioning the possibility that going to an Irish-speaking school might actually increase your English reading abilities.)

Also, if you don't want your kid to be around gurriers while they're growing up, then you'd be more than wise to opt for an Irish-speaking school over an English-speaking school.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6483
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 02:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

For one, all gaelscoileanna are mixed-gender as far as I know, while many (if not the majority) of English-language schools are gender-segregated.



Not true. Almost all national schools in Ireland are coeducational.

quote:

Also, on average, you'll see a vast socio-economic difference between the kids who go to Irish schools and the kids who go to English schools -- I mean have you ever seen a working class little gurrier going to an Irish school throwing stones at buses and writing his name with permanent marker on the bus window?




http://www.iol.ie/gaelscoileanna/scoil/bac.htm

There are gaelscoileanna in disadvantaged areas too, and their pupils also performed better than neighbouring schools. In fact it was alleged concern for such pupils which was given as a reason for the infamous circular.

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Rg_cuan
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Username: Rg_cuan

Post Number: 135
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 04:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ba cheart do gach Gael sa tír cóip den staidéar seo a sheoladh ar aghaidh chuig an ghamalóg sin Hanafin.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 1261
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 05:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think that, even more than the issue of socioeconomic status, one of the notable reasons Gaelscoil children often outperform their English medium-taught counterparts is that the parents are often more envolved in the child's life and teaching. Getting into a Gaelscoil takes more effort on the parents' part, what with planning way ahead and getting on the waiting list etc. Any parent can send their kids to the national school down the road but parents of Gaelscoil students have already put more effort into choosing a school and are thus more likely to be envolved in school activities as well as encouraging the kids to do their work and practice skills like reading. So much of a child's performance in their early years of school is influenced by the parents.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 07:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There are gaelscoileanna in disadvantaged areas too, and their pupils also performed better than neighbouring schools. In fact it was alleged concern for such pupils which was given as a reason for the infamous circular.

Take a look at Clondalkin, there's a vast vast vast difference between the kids that go to the English-speaking schools and the ones that go to the Irish-speaking schools. A simple indicator of these differences would be how many fights there are per day in the English-speaking schools Vs Coláiste Chillian, or what proportion of students stay on past their Junior Cert, or how many are expelled or suspended per year. That is to say, even in a disadvantaged area that's full of lowlives, there's still a segregation between the true lowlives and the decent people who just happen to live in a not-so-exhaulted area. The latter kind are far far far more likely to send their kids to the Gaelscoil. The thing is, I've yet to see a kid in an Irish-school uniform throw a stone at the window of a moving bus.

And what's the significance of all this... ? Well the little kids who are out kicking dogs and throwing stones at cars aren't very likely to read as well as the kids who go out and play football and whose idea of mischief is throwing wet tissue at a house rather than putting the windows through. The effects on their education are exacerbated further when they hit the age of about 11 and spend a great deal of their time, both in and out of school, stoned on hash. These kids are only imitating the attitudes of their parents, but unfortunately the majority of them grow up staying on the track they were heading.

If I really wanted to give gravity to one of these studies, I'd have to go stand at the gates of the schools in question at closing time and just watch the kind of kids that are coming out. The way they speak and the level of greasiness in their hair tend to be a good indicator of what kind of family they were spawned from. I'm sure the likes of "L'oreal for Kids" sells a hell of a lot better to families of Irish-school going kids.

But of course that isn't to say that there aren't high-quality English-speaking schools out there -- because there are -- but on average, and by capita, in the country of Ireland, there are far more gurriers in English-speaking schools than in Irish-speaking schools, and gurriers tend to take about five minutes to read a single page (if they don't get kicked out of the classroom in the meantime).

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6487
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 03:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

All these "yes, buts" about gaelscoileanna are irrelevant.

The context is that the Minister issued a diktat effectively forbidding early immersion, allegedly because of concern that English literacy of gaelscoil pupils was suffering.

This study, based on standardised tests recommended by the Department, refutes that.

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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 09:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There's no natural way in this country to impartially compare the literary skills of English-school-going kids with Irish-school-going kids, because you'll be comparing zebras with horses. The socio-economical differences are simply too vast, and these socio-economical differences will far outweigh any differences arising from what age the kids were when they started doing English as a subject in school. You can send a zebra off to race-horse school at the age of one but it still won't outperform a horse. The son of a astrophysicist is far more likely to read better than the son of a taxi driver, regardless of what age either of them started English as a subject.

If the socio-economical differences were negligible, then yes I'd probably pay some attention to the findings of this study. But while you may be of the opinion that this study refutes the idea that sending your kid to an Irish school will result in them not being as good at reading English as they could have been, well I think it neither supports nor refutes that claim.

And imagine, they'll come out with a study soon enough telling us how Irish-school going teenagers can read better than English-school going teenagers... without paying a blind bit of notice to the fact that a far greater proportion of English-school-going kids light up a joint as soon as they leave their house in the morning.

Unless Irish-school going kids start stuttering and forgetting words when they're trying to speak English, I don't think there's much concern. Would they not be better off spending the time on a study of whether kids who are on the school football team can read as well as kids who aren't... because when I was in school I recall they'd miss entire days of classes to go play matches.

This whole situation reminds me of how people view PC's nowadays, they go on and on about faster and faster CPU's without paying attention to the real bottlenecks that make far much more of an impact, like cache size and hard disk speed. The kids who go to Irish-speaking schools are already predetermined to perform better, because the process of deciding whose kids go where isn't at all random. Far more middle and upper class people send their kids to Irish schools, while 99% of working class send their kids to English-speaking schools.

If I had a child myself, I'd definitely send them to an Irish school, not because of the findings of this study, but for a plethora of other reasons:
1) They'll be around far less scumbags during their "formative years".
2) They'll be around more intellectual peers, which will foster and nurture their own intellectualism.
3) They'll speak Irish, the language of their own people rather than the people across the water who came to invade.
4) They'll be familiar with multi-lingualism from an early age, making it easier for them to pick up even more languages as they get older.

And they're only the reasons that come to mind instantly. So you see, I'm not averse to the findings of this study at all -- because after all they are positive findings -- but I think they have no basis.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 1264
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 12:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

While I tend to agree with you to a certain extent I must point out that often the kids of suburban well-to-do parents are plenty likely to go awry in their teen years and smoke just as much hash as the poor kids. The only difference is that those well-to -do kids get off easy when they get caught and they keep their bad habbits a secret when they don't get caught so they won't. Wealth alone doesn't produce well adjusted children, its the attitude of the parents and the amount that they care about facilitating a good and healthy environment for children to grow up in, complete with a push to become knowledgable. Its these parents who put their kids in Gaelscoileanna. Their are plenty of families who live on modest means but whose children, because of parental envolvement and encouragement, do quite well in school and don't become troublesome nearly so much. I think that your way of speaking of people in a lower social bracket than yourself, a Thomas a chara, is a little unkind. I think you have some good points but you come across as a tad bit condescending. I doubt that this is your intention so I wanted to tell you so you can see how another sees what you've written, being as often things come out differently than we meant to write them.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 617
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 05:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Tomás:
Unless Irish-school going kids start stuttering and forgetting words when they're trying to speak English, I don't think there's much concern.

Exactly! And now that a study has demonstrated that (for whatever combination of reasons!) that isn't happening, perhaps these schools can just be left to get on with it.

"Why are Gaelscoileanna succeeding?" is a whole different question. As Aonghus says, the issue right now is "are they succeeding?" They evidently are, so there is no justification for the Minister's attempt to interfere with them, and that's the point that needs to be made.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 02:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I think that your way of speaking of people in a lower social bracket than yourself, a Thomas a chara, is a little unkind. I think you have some good points but you come across as a tad bit condescending. I doubt that this is your intention so I wanted to tell you so you can see how another sees what you've written, being as often things come out differently than we meant to write them.

Thanks for the input Ríona. I have no prejudice against the poor -- because after all it does not define who they are -- but I am prejudiced against working-class people, the kind of people who smoke hash all day and are perfectly content to spend the rest of their lives working 9 to 5 picking orders in a dimly lit warehouse, without an ounce of aspiration or ambition in their life. Of course, just because a kid is born to unsavoury parents, that doesn't mean the kid won't become something more... but it's the exception when they do.

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WorkerBee (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 03:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Working class people do just that - work. To classify them as joint smoking laggards is not just untrue - it reeks of elitism and snobbery. If they don't do the warehouse work, drive the buses, clean the roads, who will? To look down on them shows a lack of respect for them and no self-esteem on your part. People who are secure in themselves don't sneer at others.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 1266
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 05:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

WARNING: this might sound unkind but I'm going to say it anyway.

As written above, if the working class people abandoned those jobs and all became college professors and rocket scientists then who would do all those jobs that some consider lower? I'll answer that one for you, huge numbers of immigrants and then there will be so many that there will only be a few Irish people left in Ireland because, after all, a country can only have so many rocket scientists. Thus most of the Irish will leave Ireland because there aren't enough "upscale jobs" for the all of them and so they'll go somewhere else and scatter throughout the world, which might make it harder to revive Irish than it already is.

I know that this is a semi-perposterous scenario but it is meant to express the truth that a country needs all its workers and they shouldn't be degraded. I suspect, a Thomas a chara, that you aren't in reality opposed to these people, you're just opposed to the fact that they are content with their place and don't strive to be more. I can sort of understand what you mean in the sense that parents should encourage their children to always dream for great things, but the reality is that someone has to do these jobs. THanks for understanding what I'm saying and not completely freaking out about it.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 07:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

WorkerBee:
quote:

Working class people do just that - work.

As do the middle class and upper class and every flavour in between.

WorkerBee:
quote:

To classify them as joint smoking laggards is not just untrue - it reeks of elitism and snobbery.

I challenge that assertion; it's rare I get interesting intellectual conversation out of someone who works 60 hours a week in a factory and then buys a €100 bag of coke at the weekend.

WorkerBee:
quote:

If they don't do the warehouse work, drive the buses, clean the roads, who will?

Supply and demand, as ever. Tom, John and James don't want to go get the coal from the bunker, but they all want a fire. Looks like they'll either draw straws, or two of them will throw in money for the other one.

WorkerBee:
quote:

To look down on them shows a lack of respect for them and no self-esteem on your part.

Look down? Dunno if I'd go so far as to say that I look down on them, but I definitely amn't a great fan of them. As for the implications as regards my self-esteem, are you suggesting that deep down inside I want to drop out of college and go work in Centra?

WorkerBee:
quote:

People who are secure in themselves don't sneer at others.

I didn't sneer at anyone, I just expressed that I'm prejudiced against the working class. I'm also prejudiced against members of the Travelling Community, among other groups of people.

And now Ríona:
quote:

As written above, if the working class people abandoned those jobs and all became college professors and rocket scientists then who would do all those jobs that some consider lower?

I don't really consider them lower... it's just that I'd prefer to design an embedded systems circuit from 9 to 5 rather than sitting at a checkout.

Ríona:
quote:

I'll answer that one for you, huge numbers of immigrants and then there will be so many that there will only be a few Irish people left in Ireland because, after all, a country can only have so many rocket scientists.

Ireland's already over-run with immigrants. We're 10% Polish already and the figure's rising steadily.

Ríona:
quote:

Thus most of the Irish will leave Ireland because there aren't enough "upscale jobs" for the all of them and so they'll go somewhere else and scatter throughout the world, which might make it harder to revive Irish than it already is.

I think the vast majority of people would prioritise their life career and profession over what languages they speak -- I know I would in anyway.

quote:

I know that this is a semi-perposterous scenario but it is meant to express the truth that a country needs all its workers and they shouldn't be degraded. I suspect, a Thomas a chara, that you aren't in reality opposed to these people, you're just opposed to the fact that they are content with their place and don't strive to be more. I can sort of understand what you mean in the sense that parents should encourage their children to always dream for great things, but the reality is that someone has to do these jobs. THanks for understanding what I'm saying and not completely freaking out about it.

I'm not saying anything bad about these people, I don't call them names or abuse them, but I am prejudiced against them. I'd much rather share a flat with a college student than someone who works 60 hours a week picking orders in a factory. Why? Because it says a lot about a person if they're perfectly content to do that for the rest of their lives, that and I hate the smell of stale smoke. Plus it's nice to have a bit of intellectual conversation now and again. I'd kill myself today if I knew my life would be such a meaningless, fruitless chore.

And before people I go into how society works and so forth, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be workingclass and that everyone should work at something they find interesting, fulfilling and fun, but I am saying that I want to work at something that's interesting and fulfilling and full. Anyway, we're going horribly off-topic.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 1267
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 09:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thomas a chara,

At least you are honest. :) I agree that pretty soon, under the EU's free movement policy, there will be too many immigrants at once. When I was in Dublin it was hard to find that many Irish people, let alone people who understood English well. I don't have a problem with immigrants, for goodness sake America is made up of them. I just think its too much at once at present and in such a short time have they all come. Not to mention that if I wanted to be one of those immigrants I would be swiftly denied permission to live in Ireland, even though I care more about the country than most of the people who are allowed to freely pour in. I know I'm ranting and it theoretically does not relate to Gaelscoileanna or working class people smoking hash or not, but I feel strongly about this issue. I suppose that in the end it matters not what I think since I have no say. Everyone in Ireland will have to handle it, or not.

I hope you find me stimulating and intellectual enough for your fanciful tastes, just in case we ever wind up locked in a flat together and must converse. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 334
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 10:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So, you didn't sneer at anyone, or look down on them, you're just prejudiced against them. Have I got it right?

An interesting stance. All I can say is, I wish to high heaven that we had the kind of working class scum over here that you're apparantly plagued with over there.

On this side of the pond, anybody willing and able to drop serious money on coke every weekend is rather unlikely to have earned that money by working 60 hours at a factory job.

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 03:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Coke must be cheap here! Plus there is a great deal of wealth polarity in the US

Immagraints are here to keep rents up, wages down and costs for businesses low -people voted for the governments who look after big business, so it is good enough for them if they find out they get stung

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Seosamh
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Username: Seosamh

Post Number: 105
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Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 05:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá fáilte roimh chách a deirimse. The more people with a non-English mother tongue who arrive in Ireland help Irish immensely. The more English mother tongue Irish who leave also help Irish. - Is fíor go mbíonn an fhírinne searbh. An mhuintir ilteangach isteach agus céad fáilte rompu a deirim.

Many of those who arrive to do the more tedious jobs are often more qualified than those who employ them. All of the non-EU postgrads pay a double, and sometimes treble, fee to attend university here.

Mo thrua an cloigeann circe a scríobh - 'I'm prejudiced against the working class. I'm also prejudiced against members of the Travelling Community, among other groups of people' - mar níl sa duine eile ach tú féin.



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