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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (November-December) » Archive through November 07, 2007 » Linguistic Sudy, resumed: (the other thread is too long) « Previous Next »

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6399
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 08:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=2528&viewby=date

quote:

Is é aistriú chainteoirí Béarla chun na Gaeltachta an príomhchúis le meath na Gaeilge sna ceantair sin, de réir na tuarascála teangeolaíche atá foilsithe ag an Roinn Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta.
'Ní hé go bhfuil muintir na Gaeltachta iad féin ag iompar a ndroim ar an nGaeilge, ach tá siad ag maireachtáil i gcomhthéacs nua ina bhfuil dhá theanga sa phobal agus bíonn brú orthu de bharr sin,' arsa comhúdar na tuarascála, Seosamh Mac Donnacha ó Ollscoil na hÉireann Gaillimh (OÉG).



Demographics are an issue: and social engineering is tough to do. We have seen yelps from the anglophone press anytime it is suggested that there should be any restriction on Englsih speakers in the gaeltacht. (Witness the current raic with regard to Pobal Scoil Corca Dhuibhne).

This will be a major challenge.

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Mise_fhéin
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Username: Mise_fhéin

Post Number: 330
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 09:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Major challenge an ea dar leatsa. Tá an cath caillte a dhuine, is cuma céard a dhéanfas amach anseo, leanfaidh an t-athrú seo ar aghaidh le Béarlóirí ag bogadh isteach agus Gaeilgeoirí ag athrú a dteanga chun iad a cheansú.
Nuair a thuganns tuarascáil chomh cuimsitheach mar an ceann seo scór bliana chun an taoide a chasadh in aghaidh bás na Gaeltachta, féadtar a rá, go bhfuil sé ró-dhéanach!

(Message edited by Mise Fhéin on November 05, 2007)

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Mise_fhéin
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Username: Mise_fhéin

Post Number: 331
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 09:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

ó sea, rinne mé dearmad beagnach. Níl an rialtas sásta na moltaí molta sa tuarascáil a chuir i bhfeidhm ach an oiread!

"Focáilte" mar a deirtear sa Ghaeltacht, nó an chuid fágtha di ar aon nós!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1121
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 09:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Eoin is right (from part I), everyone - EVERYONE - who's fluent or close enough to it to accomplish what they need to do as Gaeilge, regardless of where they reside, needs to demand that their business be conducted as Gaeilge wherever they have a legal demand to do so. They need to demand it, demand it *now*, not walk away from the desk to come back another day, not switch to english because it's a "quick thing" they need and they don't want it to take two hours while the clerk "finds somebody" in the basement with some Irish.

They must REFUSE to speak english. Should an Irish speaking Irishman have to deal with that kind of difficulty and inconvenience in his own country? Absolutely not, but the situation as it stands demands it if the language is to continue. Is saving the Irish language worth some inconvenience? A Gaeilge civil rights movement could be started.

Should the black citizens (and the white citizens who cared) of Montgomery, Alabama have had to be inconvenienced by not using the bus system? Of course not, but it needed to be done to right a wrong, and so for over a year they allowed themselves to be inconvenienced as an investment in the future. Sure, it would have been easier to just sit quietly in the back and ride the busses...but something greater was at stake.

Every time they encounter difficulty or refusal on the part of a body legally bound to provide services as Gaeilge - EVERY TIME - they need to file a formal complaint that their rights have been abridged.

While I would say that the native speakers in the gaeltacht have more expected of them in this regard, and so own the greater part of the shame for not having done it continuously for the last 80-some-odd years, it is solidly the responsibility of all who are capable and love the language. Those outside the gaeltacht who are learning it as a second language obviously have enough love of the language to spend all that time and resource learning it - what's a little more to actually use it where it'll do some good?

Someone said that people in the US learn Spanish not because of an interest in the cultures of Spanish speaking countries but because of perceived economic benefit. That's part of it, but that benefit and others that come into play are rooted in the idea that many people are coming who speak Spanish and *do not* or *will not* speak english (or some combination of the two). If there are even 100,000 competent (fluent or close to it) speakers (that's probably that 300,000+ number we keep seeing), each of which FLAT OUT REFUSING to speak english and still demanding service whenever they have the right to do so, what do you think the effect would be on the government level?

Granted, that approach isn't going to get you far at the grocery store (yet), but certain places are required to provide Gaeilge by law, and they need to be forced to toe the line.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6403
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Every time they encounter difficulty or refusal on the part of a body legally bound to provide services as Gaeilge - EVERY TIME - they need to file a formal complaint that their rights have been abridged.



Tá sin á dhéanamh ag sciar mhaith againn.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=tuarascail_bhliantuil&tid=24&lang=

However, the situation was not so clear cut until the offical languages act was passed, and not everyone has the resources to go to court or go to jail to assert their rights.

It will take time.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2090
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 01:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sin smaoiteamh a bhí aige cara do mo chuid agus a d’ins sé domh nuair a bhí muid sa Ghaeltacht cupla bliain ó shoin:

Nuair a gheobhadh siad a bpéipeáir ó Roinn na gCánach, thiocfadh leis na Gaeilgeoirí an péipeár a chuir ar aist chuige’n Roinn i ndiaidh daofa na foclaí seo a scríobh air: NÍ THUIGIM.

Tá mé cinnte go bhfuighidh ’n Roinn sin réiteach gasta agus go gcuirfeadh siad leagan Gaeilge chucu sin :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1122
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 02:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But it's where it starts, a Aonghus. Not that everyone needs to go to jail for it, but the more I think about this today, the more similarities I find between it and the American Civil Rights movement.

And really, that's what it is. In Ireland, dealing with the gov't as Gaeilge is a civil right. Don't exercise it, and it goes away.

If you're being denied it, fight for it. It's not even like they'd be looking to get new laws passed, just getting the old ones enforced.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6404
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 02:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There was a lot of latitude in the old laws.

I do in fact deal with my tax affairs in Irish, and it is a constant struggle.

I haven't got the time, money and the energy to go to court each time.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 321
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 04:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Have you ever been denied service in Irish, Aonghus?

And, is there an Irish organization analogous to the American Civil Liberties Union that could fight these cases for people?

http://www.aclu.org/

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6407
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 04:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes. Sometimes I do something about it.

The ICCL exists, but Irish speakers belong to the wrong demographic. They are more likely to stand up for the "Irish is being shoved down my throat" f(r)action.

http://www.iccl.ie/

There is an odd discrepancy between the perception of Irish speakers as a privileged minority and the actuality.

There was a Gaeltacht Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s - RnaG is a fruit of their labours.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/splanc-dheireadh-na-gaeltachta-23/3875501156

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Mickrua
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Username: Mickrua

Post Number: 124
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 05:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The treatment of the Irish language by the State(State bodies) is similar to the way the Health service is operating/ not operating(take your pick)

The minister passes the buck to a quango(HSE) , who in turn pass it to the hospital consultants who pass it to administration , who pass it to general staff , who pass it it back to the HSE , who send it on its way again.
Fancy misdiagnosing over twenty women with breast cancer in mid 2005 and finding out the "Error" now first week in NOv 2007.
You try and ask for service as Gaeilge and the response is "The lady/gent who does the work through Irish is in on Wenesday next or the most common "S/He is away on leave/holiday at the moment is it ok to do it in English?"
Sin é an freagra a fuair mé ó Leabharlann Chontae Ros Comáin samhradh anuraidh nuair a theastaigh uaim an Gaeilge a fháil amach ar bhaile beag sa gcontae sin.
Foreigners have more chance with their lingo than Gaeilgeoirs in Ireland with Gaeilge now!
Anyway LIFE is too short to WAIT around while these penpushers string you along and it costs money ringing and travelling from place to place to get "One's Rights as in the Constitution" .The part about the Irish language ,Ní fiú an Bhunreacht luach an pháipéir a bhfuil sé scríofa air.

(Message edited by mickrua on November 05, 2007)

(Message edited by mickrua on November 05, 2007)

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1124
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 06:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"The ICCL exists, but Irish speakers belong to the wrong demographic. They are more likely to stand up for the "Irish is being shoved down my throat" f(r)action."

Oh, so I guess it really *IS* analogous to the aclu ;-)

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1125
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 06:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mickrua,

But then the question becomes, is the language not dying worth the trouble?

That's a question that each individual in a position to do so must answer for themself.

If the answer is, "no," then there is no complaint to be made when it dies, since personal choices were made and the time/money/etc was more valuable than the language. The person making the choice got to keep their much valued time/money/etc, and its price was the language.

Those who answer, "yes," have no guarantee that their efforts will be ultimately successful, but must decide if trying is worthwhile, or if they could live with their own complicity in the language's extinction.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 324
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 06:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm just kind of thinking out loud here, but can public shaming do anything to hold people accountable? Something à la Manchán Magan's Nó Bearla, only more of an ongoing exposé conducted, say, by RTÉ Nuacht?

Something based loosely along these lines: http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=reports_pigbook1999

Pork awards are actually bequeathed in an annual ceremony which is, as you might imagine, not usually attended by the honorees.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1126
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 11:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

too much of Manchán's type of exposé will add ammuntion to the argument that it's a lost cause and they shouldn't bother.

However, I agree that the tactics used to promote english over Irish originally should be turned around, shame, economic perks and educational opportunities.

Now, english speakers cannot, and should not be, legally denied civil rights, but special bonuses and privileges can be afforded to Irish speakers.

But yes, shame is a big reason Irish was abandoned, why shouldn't it be a reason english is abandoned in certain spheres in favor of Irish...

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Josh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 218.88.37.56
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 11:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus wrote:

The ICCL exists, but Irish speakers belong to the wrong demographic.

Reply:

I chuckled when I read this. As white Irishmen, they certainly do belong to the wrong demographic! Now, if they were ethnic minorities, everything would be different! The ICCL probably has its hands full campaiging to prevent rapists and drug dealers from being deported back to their home countries! No time left for Irish rights!!

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Eoin
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Username: Eoin

Post Number: 201
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 08:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Duairt Lughaidh:

""Nuair a gheobhadh siad a bpéipeáir ó Roinn na gCánach, thiocfadh leis na Gaeilgeoirí an péipeár a chuir ar aist chuige’n Roinn i ndiaidh daofa na foclaí seo a scríobh air: NÍ THUIGIM.

Tá mé cinnte go bhfuighidh ’n Roinn sin réiteach gasta agus go gcuirfeadh siad leagan Gaeilge chucu sin :-) "

Ta na ceart agat...

Faighheann siad! :-)

Nuacht Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus Deisceart Mhuigheó http://anghaeltacht.net/ce

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Seosamh
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Username: Seosamh

Post Number: 80
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 12:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Manchán, luaite thuas agaibh:

.... too much of Manchán's type of exposé will add ammuntion to the argument that it's a lost cause and they shouldn't bother. .....

Luas cheana libh, i bhfad ó shin (2005/6), nach bhfuil aon sliocht amháin Gaeilge ar a lch. féin ag Manchán, ní a chomharthaíonn a mheas féin ar an teanga.
Seo an suíomh:

http://www.manchan.com/

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2098
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 01:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Amharc ar ar scríobh sé anseo:

http://www.manchan.com/pb/wp_f4b21f7c/wp_f4b21f7c.html?0.2846612230890786

quote:

This website should, and would be in Irish except that it seems no one would understand it.
Ba cheart go mbeadh an suíomh seo as Gaeilge ach . . .



Amaidí... Dá ndéanfadh achan nduine ’n rud céarna, chaillfí an teangaidh go gasta !

Cib bith, sileam féin nach bhfuil a chuidsean Gaeilge rómhaith.

(meancógaí bunúsacha anseo: http://www.manchan.com/pb/wp_f4b21f7c/wp_f4b21f7c.html?0.2846612230890786 srl, gan trácht ar a fhuaimníocht a ghníos dochar do mo chluasa).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seosamh
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Username: Seosamh

Post Number: 85
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

... would be in Irish except that it seems no one would understand it. ...

Dochreidte. Is mór an náire a leithéid.

GRMA a Lughaidh.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 6422
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 05:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mar a dúirt an Speallaire i bhFoinse na seachtaine seo, is léir go bhfuil issues ag Manchán bhocht maidir leis an nGaeilge. Ba chuma, ach TG Fóir agus RTÉ ag bronnadh crannóg air.

Scríobh sé, is cosúil, Irish doesn't do pithy.

Ambaist.



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