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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (November-December) » Archive through November 07, 2007 » Linguistic Study of the Gaeltacht « Previous Next »

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 08:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks to Asarlaí on irishgaelictranslator.com for the heads up.

Looks like the long-awaited linguistic study has been released.

http://www.pobail.ie/en/AnGhaeltacht/LinguisticStudyoftheGaeltacht/

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 194
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 09:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hee hee, the truth is Danny, I took that link from here. Aonghus put up the link earlier :0)

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Seosamh
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Username: Seosamh

Post Number: 65
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Castar muintir na suíomhanna dá chéile ach ní chastar na cnoic ná na sléibhte.

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 01:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Reads like an autopsy...

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Antaine
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Post Number: 1116
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Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 09:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

not like an autopsy, but like a patient prognosis describing the late stages in the metastasis of a highly agressive cancer.

I don't think that describing english as a cancer when talking about the Gaeltacht situation is either innacurate or unfair...

(Message edited by antaine on November 01, 2007)

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Post Number: 314
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Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Of course it's not. The report reflects an absolute tragedy.

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Antaine
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Post Number: 1117
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Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

all the more tragic because the tragic outcome infinitely preventable even at this stage, but likely will be allowed to run its current course...

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Aindréas
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Post Number: 210
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 12:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh wow I feel so happy now. Nine percent of Gaeltacht youth speak Irish amongst themselves. I think that was the one that really did it for me.

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Antaine
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Post Number: 1118
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 01:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, there's nothing for it but to continue to build a global language community. As long as there are those of us who are committed to becoming or remaining fluent and educating our children to fluency...and continue to speak it to each other and whenever else we have the opportunity to insist then it will remain alive.

If those in the gaeltacht have other priorities (read: "don't care") then comitted Irishmen throughout the isle need to be encouraged and affirmed in their efforts. And if the Irish government doesn't care then we have to take it into our own hands and beyond the shores of Ireland itself. Not just as a hobby-language, either.

Granted, those of us in the US, Canada, etc can't demand services from companies or government in Irish, but we can make it the language of our homes; we can educate our friends; and we can seek out and associate with others who are doing the same.

In that regard, Daltaí na Gaeilge may have done more for the Irish language in the last 20 years than the Irish government has in the last 80 (and, it seems, in the next 80 as well)!

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 02:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Argh, I was just about to settle in and read the study but now the link isn't working. Nor the main page.

Let's hope it's because of the overwhelming demand to view the study. ;D

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Seosamh
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Post Number: 68
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 05:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá sé go léir ráite ansin agat a Antaine. Tosaíonn teora na Gaeltachta le taobh gach éinne againn. Gach áit a mbímid, bíodh an Ghaeilg inár dtimpeall.

Féach go mbeidh Oireachtas Chathair na Mart ar an Oireachtas is mó riamh. San am a dtiocfaidh cuid de Dhaltaí na Gaeilge go hÉireann faoi cheann roinnt blianta eile le freastal ar an Oireachtas, is é is dóichí go mbeidh an fhéile rómhór faoin am sin lena reachtáil i mbaile chomh beag le Cathair na Mart.

Níl a fhios againn an borradh a d'fhéadfadh a theacht faoi ghnéithe de shaol na Gaeilge go fóill. Is maith ar mhodh ar bith gur léirigh an taighde seo an fhírinne. Anois, coinnímis orainn.

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Eoin
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Post Number: 196
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 07:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I usually don't write in the English forum here.

Before we criticize the lack of interest in their language of the young people in the Gaeltacht we ought to consider the milieu in which they live.

I live in the Gaeltacht (Ceantair A) and if I call the local County Council I can only do business in English because they don't know Irish...

If I ring any Government Department (except RnaG) they make it very difficult to transact business in Irish if it's possible at all..

Try doing your tax returns in Irish and when you have a query and ring them..."....the girl with Irish isn't here today could you call back tomorrow."

Ask any teacher about trying to do business with the Dept of Education in Irish. Are there textbooks..?

Try and get the NCT done in Irish...

How many debates are conducted in the Dáil in Irish and are they only about Irish? How many debates are conducted in a local authority in Irish? How much of the administration in the HSE is conducted in Irish? Any public board or company?

Why should anybody speak Irish? It isn't practical and the state doesn't encourage it in action if not in legislation.

The State and state companies supports the speakers of Polish more than they support Irish which is supposed to be the national language.

An gá a thuile a rá?

So what to do?

The simplest thing is to use it in those places where we have a right to. In dealing with the state and local authority. When they write to you in English send the letter back - no stamp required - with a scribbled note across it "Gaeilge led thoil!"

Ná labhair Béarla leo.

If you do not get linguistic satisfaction write, email or call the Coimisinéir Teanga.

The Government will do little. Each of us can do a lot!

Start today. How many of us dop or income tax returns in English. How many of us understand the form in English? The Irish version - which is available - is not that more difficult to understand.

Ask for your ESB bill in Irish. It costs nothing.

Tá go leor ráite agam!

Go n–eirí linn


Eoin

Nuacht Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus Deisceart Mhuigheó http://anghaeltacht.net/ce

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Seosamh
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Post Number: 69
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aontaím ar fad leat a Eoin. Chailleas roinnt uaireanta an chloig de mo shaol in imeacht na mblianta ag lorg foirmeacha Gaeilge do gach cineál cánach. Is troid mhillteanach é na foirmeacha a choinneáil nuair a bheas siad agat. Bhíodh bille aibhléise Gaeilge chugam ar fead roinnt blianta. I mBéarla le tamall anuas arís.

Is dóigh liom go gcaithfear a bheith trodach chomh maith céanna leo. Beannaím do lucht siopa sa bPolainnis anois. Is minice gur Éireannaigh iad. Tugann sé deis dom iompú ar an nGaeilg ansin. Caithfear eachtraí teangan a bhrú orthu go léir, mar a bhrúnn siadsan orainn.
Tugaimis ábhar machnaimh dóibh agus don dream sa lár eadrainn.

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Grumpy Old Fogey (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 09:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I gcead duit a Eoin, cad is fiú foirmeacha cánach nó billí leictreachais a fháil i nGaeilge? B'fhearr liom gan ceachtar acu a fháil i dteangain ar bith. B'fhearr liom státseirbhísigh agus polaiteoirí a sheachaint a oiread agus is féidir liom freisin. Insint na fírinne, sílim go ndéanfadh se dochar don Ghaeilge dá mbeadh sí nasctha leis na gnéithe gruama den saol atá luaite agat.

Ní hé sin a theastaíonn ón teanga ach saol bríomhar spreagúil a mhúsclóidh suim an phobail inti: leabhair agus nuachtáin, drámaí agus dánta, amhráin agus scannáin, cláracha teilifíse agus raidió, cluichí ríomhaireachta agus suímh idirlín, físeáin agus ceirníní ceoil, i measc rudaí eile. Sin an áit ar chóir an t-airgead a chaitheamh seachas ar aistriúchain de thuarascálacha bliantúla nach léifidh éinne. Ach má tá an t-airgead riachtanach ní leor é. Teastaíonn tallann agus díograis ó lucht labhartha na teanga freisin. Braitheann an teanga ar lucht a labhartha sa chéad áit, agus ar mhaoiniú ón stát ina dhiaidh sin.

Dála an scéil, ní dochar a dhéanfaidh an Pholainnis ná teanga ar bith eile don Ghaeilge ach a mhalairt. Rud ar bith a chruthaíonn timpeallacht ilchultúrtha agus a laghdaíonn ollsmacht an Bhéarla, cruthóidh sé spás inar féidir le teanga mionlaigh fás.

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Eoin
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Post Number: 198
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 09:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

B'fhearr linn ar fad na billí sin a sheachaint ach mar a deireann an seanfhocal "Níl rud ar bith cinnte ach bás agus cáin!"

An rud a bhí i gceist agam na na foiremeacha agus eile a úsáid i nGaeilge le thaispeaint go bhfuil "gá" le Gaeilge. Deireann daoine nach bhfuil "gá" le Gaeilge nach féidir í a "úsáid".

Ní deirim nach bhfuil ciall leis na moltaí ach ní féidir liomsa nó an chuid is mó againn mórán a dhéanamh le dán, cláracha teilifíse agus raidío, cluichí ríomhaireachta 7rl a dhéanamh. Ach is féidir linn brú a chuir tré theaspeaint go bhfuil poball Gaeilge ann.

Níl aon rud i gciuinne úsáid na bPolainnse anseo agam, is maith an rud go bhfuil na Pollannaigh anseo. Tá éileamh ar a dteanga anseo ach ní thuigeann saol an Bhéarla go bhfuil éileamh ar Ghaeilge anseo leis. Ní mór dúinn é sin a cruthú?

An féidir linn é sin a cruthú?

Nuacht Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus Deisceart Mhuigheó http://anghaeltacht.net/ce

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Josh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 11:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Some of this is actually stunning:

"On the other hand, there is evidence from Harris (2006) that students in Irish-medium schools outside the Gaeltacht outperform Gaeltacht students in some of the language ability tests detailed in his research. It seems that the teaching of Irish to students as a second language in the Gaeltacht and the linguistic complexity present in such schools has negative implications for the ultimate academic outcomes which relate to linguistic attainment for children raised through Irish. Many parents who are raising their children through Irish at home (see Section 19.3 in the main report and Mac Donnacha 2005), reported that their children are not succeeding in reaching expected levels of ability in their native language. In other words, Irish-speaking children are not evidencing the full range of linguistic competencies expected of native speakers."

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 6389
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 11:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Shean chancráin, agus a Eoin, tá roinnt den fhirinne agaibh araon.

Is cuimhin liom aiste le Caitlín Maude, agus cur síos ann ar fhear Gaeltachta a labhair Béarla le Gaeilgeoir ann. Thuig fear na gaeltachta go maith go raibh Béarla de dhíth chun gnáth saol rathúil a bheith agat.

Ní bheidh Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht ná lasmuigh munar feidir le sciar airithe daoine a gcuid a shaothrú tré mheáin na gaeilge. Tá oideachas, siamsaíocht, staitseirbhís i gceist leis sin; ach bhfearr fós é dá mbeadh mioncomhluchtaí ag plé leis an saol tiosclaíodh, ach an ghaeilge a bheith i réim in obair inmheánach na comhluchta. Leithéidí fios feasa, agus Bard na nGleann abair; ach go bhfuilid siúd ag braith ar scríobh an Bhéarla chun airgead a thuilleamh.

Más lucht na Gaeilge ag freastal ar lucht na Gaeilge amháin a bhíonn i gceist, leanfaidh an leá.

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 6390
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Josh,

I don't find that stunning. People in Gaelscoileanna are aware that they have to go that extra step, and look for the resources to develop their language. People in the Gaeltacht have a) not been as aware of the problem, and b) do not have the same access that urban dwellers do to the resources.

Most of the gaeltacht doesn't have broadband. I suspect most copies of Lá Nua and Foinse are sold in the cities, etc.

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Seosamh
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Post Number: 70
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 11:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I gcead duit a Eoin, cad is fiú foirmeacha cánach nó billí leictreachais a fháil i nGaeilge? B'fhearr liom .... - An GrumpyOldFogey


Is eagal liom go bhfuil leanbaíocht na dea-mhéine ort a Sheanóir Liopasta Aingí.
Glac staidéar. Níor bronnadh RnaG, TG4 ná stadas Eorpach ar an nGaeilg. Baineadh den stát iad le feachtasaíocht. Ní thugtar aon ní in aisce, gaelscoil, bealach raidió ná teilifíse ná a dhath. Baintear den stát iad. Scoil bhéarla i mbaile breac-Ghaeltachta is é an t-aon rud a bhronnfadh an stát ar an bpobal.

Ní bhaineann airgead leis an gceist a bheag ná a mhór. Níl sa méid sin ach sciath thar lorg de leithscéal le seandream liopasta aingí a chur ar bóiléagar! Ní luaitear airgead le cáipéisí Béarla, scoileanna Béarla, foirgnimh Bhéarla, bóithre do thiománaithe carranna Béarla. Ná luaitear liomsa airgead a chaitheamh anseo nó ansiúd i dtaca le Gaeilge mar tá mé fada go leor ar an saol agus na fiacla curtha dá réir.

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Seosamh
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 12:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

'.... Many parents who are raising their children through Irish at home (see Section 19.3 in the main report and Mac Donnacha 2005), reported that their children are not succeeding in reaching expected levels of ability in their native language. In other words, Irish-speaking children are not evidencing the full range of linguistic competencies expected of native speakers' (see Section 19.3 in the main report and Mac Donnacha 2005).

An áit a scaraim an cainteoir dúchais (Gaeltachta) leis an gcainteoir Gaeltachta. Ní chreidim na tuismitheoirí sin. Níor tógadh na gasúir le Gaeilge. Tógadh le Béarla i dtosach iad agus roinneadh an Ghaeilge leo ina dhiaidh sin, ar scoil agus sa mbaile.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2076
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 02:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Caithfidh go bhfuil an ceart agad, a Sheosaimh.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Mickrua
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Post Number: 123
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 04:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ba mhaith liom go léifidís an t-alt seo faoin nGaeilge síos an leathanach ag www.summerlands.com/crossroads/celticlanguage/labara1.html
Léiríonn sé an fhírinne faoin Rialtas / na Rialtais a bhí againn ó neamhspleáchas ar aghaidh

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Riona
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Post Number: 1253
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Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 06:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Eoin has lots of good points. Sure people technically have the right to speak Irish with government bodies etc. but in reality they make it so confounded difficult that many people would rather just do everything in English and get it done in a timely manner. The lack of availability of Irish speaking employees in the government sends the message that government couldn't care less about Irish and so young people figure that there is no point in trying to use it if they can't get things acomplished through it. What should be done is to pay anyone who has compitance in Irish and who will speak it with people more money than the average government worker. Maybe they could cut all the non Irish speakers' salories so they'd have the money to give to the Irish speakers. :) Money talks after all. In America why do you think so many people learn Spanish at school? Not because they have an amazingly strong interest in Spanish speaking countries, but because it is of economic advantage. Irish must be made economically advantageous to the point where people will see a monitary advantage in learning and speaking it.

As for Josh's point about native speakers not being as fluent in Irish as they are in English, it makes sense. Someone mentioned his friend a couple of days ago who spoke Tagalog at home and it was his native language but he would fall back on English when it came to subjects pertaining to areas of life which he learned about through English such as politics and academics. This is, I assume, what is happening here. Children who speak Irish at home know how to talk about all those sorts of things grandly, but if they are educated primarily in English then those spheres of knowledge that one attains knowing of at school come in English. That's why Irish medium education is so important, especially in the Gaeltacht.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Josh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 05:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Riona, you've missed the point. The children who are native speakers but don't speak the language well are the ones in the Gaeltacht who are brought up in home with Irish and are also GETTING the Irish-medium education.

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 6391
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 11:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

See Seosamh's post above.
He suspects that they are not actually getting enough Irish at home. And Gaeltacht schools face problems that Gaelscoileanna do not - there are an increasing number of English speakers who are there, not by choice, but because it is the local school. This puts a strain on resources, as those children require more attention than the Irish speakers - who are likely not getting enough attention. This is exacerbated by country schools being small in numbers, so that one teacher has to deal with several age groups.

One of the recommendations of the report is that special feeder schools be established to take care of bringing the level of Irish of such children up to the required level. That is one I hope is speedily implemented.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Post Number: 317
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 02:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Are teachers as underpaid in Ireland as they are here in the US?

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 6394
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 02:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't know.

But even if they were highly paid, there is only so much one teacher can do.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Post Number: 320
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 02:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Absolutely. I'm just implying that if there's no financial incentive to teach, that may be a contributing factor to the dearth of teachers available.

A difficult situation all around.

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Lughaidh
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Post Number: 2078
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ba mhaith liom go léifidís an t-alt seo faoin nGaeilge síos an leathanach ag www.summerlands.com/crossroads/celticlanguage/labara1.html
Léiríonn sé an fhírinne faoin Rialtas / na Rialtais a bhí againn ó neamhspleáchas ar aghaidh




There are several mistakes in that article. For example:


quote:

Scottish Gaelic, or Gaedhlig



It's Gàidhlig; Gaedhlig is an old spelling for the name of Irish.

quote:

becoming Cornish, Kerneweg



Kernewek

quote:

the native Irish colonists arrived around the fifth century CE and found a principally Brythonic-speaking population.



Gaelic, not Brythonic...

About Cornish:
quote:

The language died out at the end of the eighteenth century,



I think it's during the 19th

About Breton:
quote:

but it is estimated that there are 600,000 - 800,000 speakers, the largest Celtic-speaking population among the Six Nations



Now there are about 250 000 speakers.

quote:

Q-Celtic (or Goedelic) languages



Not all Q-Celtic languages are/were Goidelic, think of Celtiberian for example.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 03:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Are teachers as underpaid in Ireland as they are here in the US?"

They are overpaid and under-professional

"It's Gàidhlig; Gaedhlig is an old spelling for the name of Irish."

Thought that too

"Gaelic, not Brythonic... "

What do you mean, that Britain was Gaelic? !

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Trigger
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Post Number: 20
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 04:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

With Breton having 250,000 speakers, I think Breton and Irish have the same amount of speakers almost. Irish has about 385,000 speakers but they say Breton is the second most spoken Celtic language, I think its Irish.

But I heard Scotland spoke a Brythonic language, but this could not be true. Lughaidh is correct they spoke a Gaelic language.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2080
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 04:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I mean that the language brought by Irish people to the Isle of Man was Goidelic, and not Brythonic as they wrote in the article.

In Southern Scotland there was a Brythonic language till the Middle Ages (I think we have a few texts written in the 7th or 8th century), and it was close to (Old) Welsh. But it died, being replaced by Early Irish (at that time Scottish wasn't a separate language, but just the same language as Irish).
In the rest of the country, people spoke Pictish before Gaelic was brought there. I dunno when Pictish died, but maybe it was in the Middle Ages too. Long ago anyway and we don't have many evidences of that language (I think we just know a few words).

Some people think there were 2 Pictish languages, a P-Celtic one (we only have evidence of a few words that look close to Brythonic ones) and another one that would be non-Indo-European: there are some texts (engraved on stone), we can know the letters but the text itself is impossible to understand now, and we even dunno what kind of language it is. It doesn't look like any known language.

Maybe someone (Dennis) will correct me if I'm mistaken on some point.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 12:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Irish has about 385,000 speakers"

Where did you read that? I'd be surprised if there are more than 200,000 people who can speak Irish *fluently*. Probably closer to 150,000.

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Trigger
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Post Number: 23
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 05:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I doubt its 150,000 I'd say about nearly the 250,000/300,000 mark.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Antaine
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 08:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In southern Scotland/Northern england there was Cumbric, a language which was never written down and survives only in stray words and a number system for counting sheep. It was related to Welsh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbric_language


Ethnologue about agrees with the larger number
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=gle


also gives very high numbers for breton
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=bre

600,000 - 800,000 sounds more like the numbers i'd heard for welsh...

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Trigger
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 09:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I heard about Cumbric no one has any records but we can find out a word or too, some words in Cumbric might have similarities with Cornish and Welsh.

Also about 600,000/500,000 speak Welsh, not 800,000.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Lughaidh
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 12:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

also gives very high numbers for breton
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=bre

600,000 - 800,000 sounds more like the numbers i'd heard for welsh...



I dunno where do these numbers come from (anyway in France there are no official surveys about languages, given the government considers there's only one language in France: French, and they don't care for all minority languages).

There were 600,000 speakers once, but many years ago. Maybe Ethnologue.com has used old resources.

The last non-official surveys give about 250 000 speakers.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Trigger
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Breton has about 250,000 speakers today like Lughaidh said, it will be interesting in the next census I hope it will be more. :-)

I did some research and got figures but they may not be true, but for Manx, Cornish and Scottish Gaelic they are probably true.

For all Celtic languages >

Welsh: 600,000
Breton: 260,000
Irish: 300,000
Scottish Gaelic: 60,000
Cornish: 3000
Manx: 1,500

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Lughaidh
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 01:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Unfortunately, it cannot be more for Breton next time: 15,000 speakers die every year, and there are much less new learners than that every year in Breton classes (agus ní Briotáinis mhaith a theagasctar don chuid is mó daofa).

For Scottish, I was told it was more like 70,000 today, but I don't remember where I saw that.

For Cornish and Manx, I'm surprised, I thought it was less than that. It depends if you count fluent speakers or all learners or all people who claim they speak Cornish/Manx. I think there are less than 300 people who speak Cornish fluently today (I think I read that somewhere). For Manx I dunno, but I think 1,500 is too much.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Antaine
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 10:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

don't forget that manx didn't "die" die...it was declared dead when the last "native" (1st language) speaker died...not the last "fluent" speaker. It has continued to be spoken since then, and "then" was only the 1970s.

They're even opening gaelscoileanna

and there is a cadre of fluent speakers who claim to run gaelg speaking households, so their children would conceivably be learning manx as their first language, from fluent, albeit non-native, speaking parents.

If they're not careful, and the report indicates that they're not, that could be the direction Irish is headed.

Now, so as not to start another war to derail the thread, I understand that there are those who would consider those children to be "neo-natives" - the speakers of a "new Irish" (or in the case of the example, a "new Manx") - the only variety of the language then in existance. I tend to agree with this paradigm and point to modern Hebrew as an example of an entire nation of "neo-native" speakers of a language (or, native speakers of a "neo-language").

And there are those who will declare that that the language at that point is dead, and those children would be without a native language.

That debate would depend on what one's definition of a living language is, and so I beseech those here to not go down that dark path but instead resume the discussion about Manx and the report on Irish, to which this post was intended to contribute.

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Danny2007 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 12:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Trigger,

First you said 385,000. Now 250,000-300,000. Just curious where you get those figures from. Did you combine the total of daily Irish speakers with those who use it weekly from the 2006 ROI census or what? If you included every school kid, then yeah, it would be well over 150,000.

But the census is pretty clear that less than 100,000 speak Irish daily outside the education system. The figures for Northern Ireland aren't reliable.

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Eoin
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 06:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Féach ar ailt Dhoncha Uí Éallaithe, "Anailís ar Thorthaí Dhaonáirimh 2006 maidir le Labhairt na Gaeilge." ar http://anghaeltacht.net/ctg/daonTire06.html.

It is important to demand forms and service through Irish. The Civil Service stock answer when queried about this is "There is no demand!"

If there is no demand why bother?

If every time anybody makes a suggestion about getting a service through Irish the answer is that it's easirer to do it in English, why bother?

I want to do all my business with the state, local government and in my private business through Irish. Am I mad?

Should the Gaeltacht wake up and smell the coffee?

I'm getting that message from some people on this list nó an bhfuilim "ró-mhothálach" (má tá a leithéid de focal ann!)

Má tá muid chun an Ghaeilge a shabháil níl ach rud amháin le déanamh.

Í a labhairt!

Nuacht Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus Deisceart Mhuigheó http://anghaeltacht.net/ce

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Mise_fhéin
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 07:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is breá liom an sliocht seo thíos:

"Tá muid tar éis go leor dúthrachta a chaitheamh le tamall de bhlianta anuas ag cothú dea-mhéine i measc an phobail i leith na Gaeilge. Ach is cuma cé mhéad dea-mheine atá ann i leith na Gaeilge, is cuma cé mhéad duine a mhaíonn go bhfuil Gaeilge acu, mura bhfuil pobal ann atá ag labhairt Ghaeilge go laethúil, níl todhchaí in ann don teanga. ...Tá sé níos éasca an cúpla focal a chothú i measc 100 duine ná mar atá sé Gaeilgeoir laethúil amháin a chruthú. Ach tá Gaeilgeoir laethúil amháin níos luachmhaire do thodhchaí na teanga ná 100 cúpla-focalóir."

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 01:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

don't forget that manx didn't "die" die...it was declared dead when the last "native" (1st language) speaker died...not the last "fluent" speaker. It has continued to be spoken since then, and "then" was only the 1970s.



I've never said the contrary, I just think there are less speakers than the number that was given.

quote:

I tend to agree with this paradigm and point to modern Hebrew as an example of an entire nation of "neo-native" speakers of a language (or, native speakers of a "neo-language").



They had no choice since Hebrew was a dead language (as a community language) for centuries. For Irish it's different: there are still many native speakers and learners can improve their Irish with them.

quote:

Má tá muid chun an Ghaeilge a shabháil níl ach rud amháin le déanamh.

Í a labhairt!



Go díreach !

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 02:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá alt faoi Ghaelg Vannin ag Alex Hijmans i bhFoinse na seachtaine seo.
Thart ar 100 cainteoir laethúla atá ann dar leis.
Thart ar 50 páiste sa bhunscoil lán Ghaelach, agus 3 ag fáil meánscolaíocht tré mheán na Gaeilge.

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Antaine
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 05:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

a Lughaidh,

I wasn't putting words in your mouth or anything, my comment was directed generally.

On the note of Hebrew, I recognize that there are important differences that make it too different from Irish to base a revival model off of.

However, my point was that Hebrew died out completely ages ago, and so all speakers of modern Hebrew are "neo-natives," so to speak.

I mention it only because there are those who have stated in the past, that children living in the galltacht who may speak only Irish from parents who are fluent but non-native are not to be considered "native speakers" themselves, effectively rendering them people without a native language. My point was that if that definition was to be followed the entire nation of Israel and all native speakers of its national language, modern Hebrew, would also be "people without a native language."

Nobody seems to question the validity of claiming to be a native speaker of Hebrew, and so our definition of language extinction may need revision. Usually, that definition is "when the last first-language native speaker dies, the language is dead" even though others may continue to speak it, use it on a daily basis and raise their children through it.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Post Number: 323
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 06:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"...there are those who have stated in the past, that children living in the galltacht who may speak only Irish from parents who are fluent but non-native are not to be considered "native speakers" themselves."

That's simply ridiculous. I can't begin to count the number of people I know who speak American English as a native language whose parents emigrated here from elsewhere and were non-native speakers.

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 03:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I question their seriousness -look at the daft spelling. It seems like a lovely little language, but the amateurishness of it all is not too inspiring. I think we'd all fall in love with it -if we could read it.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 07:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má leann tú amach ós ard é.

Spelling is somewhat arbitrary: theirs was based on teh work of two few scribes, who were unaware of the connection with Irish.

But it is nowhere near as daft as english spelling...

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Lughaidh
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Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 09:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I can't begin to count the number of people I know who speak American English as a native language whose parents emigrated here from elsewhere and were non-native speakers.



The situation with Irish is different. If you grow in Dublin and if your parents speak only Irish (even bad) with you, you can be considered a native speaker, but there may be a huge difference between your Irish and the Gaeltacht one, because in Dublin, you are likely not to hear much Irish around you. In the Gaeltacht, you hear Irish everywhere so even if your parents don't speak good Irish, your Irish could be good anyway because what you hear elsewhere is right.

Would you be considered a native speaker if your parents raise you through Irish although they don't master it perfectly? Maybe, but anyway it can't be compared to Gaeltacht Irish, you see. Maybe we should make a difference between natural native speakers and native speakers whose parents are learners (and maybe, don't master the language).

When I was in Ireland, I knew "native speakers" of Irish from the Galltacht, who would make loads of mistakes (much more than me, although I began to study Irish in 1996 only).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 10:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In the Gaeltacht, you hear Irish everywhere so even if your parents don't speak good Irish, your Irish could be good anyway because what you hear elsewhere is right.



Ba bhreá dá mbeadh sé sin fíor. Ní dóigh liom go bhfil níos mó.

Ach is fíor go bhfuil sé éasca droch nósanna a phiocadh suas, agus doiligh fáil réidh leo.

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Guevara
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Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 01:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh wrote

Maybe we should make a difference between natural native speakers and native speakers whose parents are learners

I know of native Irish speakers in the Galltacht raised by either one parent being from Gaeltacht other a fluent speaker or both parents being second language speakers who raised children through Irish. Of course they are all native speakers and have great Irish. Are those children in the Isle of Man not native speakers? Also consider this that a lot of native Irish speakers don't bother raising the children with Irish and yet first language speakers of English have bothered to raise an Irish speaking family and have made Irish the natural medium. I would consider the many Irish speakers raised in Irish speaking homes in West Belfast as native Irish speakers eventhough the parents of the now children acquired Irish as a second language.

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 02:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The problem come from labeling it all 'Irish'.

Simply from a structural view-point they are different.

The question then is: "Do you want to revive the Gaelic of early 20th century Ireland (appropriately updated) or develop ones own ethnic language?

That's not meant in a derogatory way, but it feels dishonest to me that people would ignore the differences.

A practical solution would have been for the middle classes to emulate a centralizing dialect like Mayo or Ring or a large dialect (Donegal or Conemara) and bring up kids under influence of good speakers of native and non-native and let the new Irish develop over 3 or 4 generations.

Aonghus's family obviously did a good job of imparting a rich faculty in the tongue, as did people in the Czech Republic, Finland, Lithuania or other places who had cultural loss, and in case a number of generations were fashioned on the native dialects



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