Am wondering how one would say "How do you say...." as Gaeilge. Would it be "Conas a rá tú as Gaeilge"?

Also am confused as which to the correct word for "who" "which" "what" where" "when" "how"..as I see in dictionaries "ce" "cad", "conas", "cen", but interpreted differently at times.
For instance Foclóir Póca lists "how" as cén chaoi, cad é mar, and conas.
Go raibh maith agaibh
Jeannette

Ulster Irish > Cad é mar a deirfeá?
Munster Irish > Conas a deirfeá?
Connacht Irish > Cén chaoi a deirfeá?

I'm not too certain about the Connacht Irish.

How do you say = Conas a deir tú
How would you say = Conas a déarfá

Because you probably don't want to know how a single person says something but how Irish speakers do in general, you could use the autonomous form:
Conas a deirtear as Gaeilge é? (lit. "how does one say it in Irish", "how is it said"), Conas a déarfaí as Gaeilge é? (lit. "how would one say it, how would it be said in Irish")

rá is a verbal noun, so you can't use "rá tú" (lit. "to say you", "saying you") It doesn't mean "you say".
But you can use it without "tú": Conas a rá? = How to say?

quote:

For instance Foclóir Póca lists "how" as cén chaoi, cad é mar, and conas.

So the three of them mean "how".
cén chaoi = which way > how
Cén chaoi a bfhuil tú? = How are you?
cén chaoi a ndeir tú? = How do you say?
cad é mar (> goidé mar > dé mar) = what like > how
Cad é mar atá tú? = How are you?
Cad é mar a deir tú? = How do you say?
(cá ionnas >) conas = which manner > how
Conas atá tú? = How are you?
Conas a deir tú? = How do you say?

There are even more possibilities: cé mar, conas mar, cén dóigh, cá bhfuil mar, etc.
And with adjectives you can say, e.g.: How good = cé chomh maith, cá maith, etc.

quote:

Conas a rá? = How to say?

Sounds like an Anglicism to me. We should remember that "I dunno what to do" in native Irish is "níl a fhios agam cad é ba chóir a dhéanamh" (you can use cad or céard instead of cad é of course), and not (as far as I know) "níl a fhios agam cad é a dhéanamh" or "...cad é déanamh".

I think we shouldn't overuse "as Gaeilge". For most native speakers, the most natural phrase is "i nGaeilge", I think. I'm almost sure "as Gaeilge" has be popularised by schools, just because "as Gaeilge" is easier since "as" isn't followed by séimhiú nor urú.

To ask someone who he would say something in Irish, you use the conditional most of the time. So you'd probably have:

Cad é mar a deirfeá... i nGaeilg? (Ulster)
Cén chaoi a ndéarfá... i nGaeilge? (Connemara)
Conas a déarfá... i nGaelainn? (Munster).

(not 100% sure for the verbal forms in Connemara and Munster, maybe they'd say deirfeá).

Cén Ghaeilge atá ar…? Céard a thugtar ar… i gGaeilge? - nach maith leat iad?

'S maith ach is dóigh liom gurb iad na ceastracha eile is coitianta sa chaint.

quote:

Sounds like an Anglicism to me.

Yes, perhaps, but I'm not sure.
Forms of question pronouns in infinitive phrases are common in a lot of languages:
German: Was tun?, Russian: Что делать?, English: What to do?, French: Que faire?, Italian: Che fare?
So why not Cad a dhéanamh? How about Cad le déanamh? Is it contrary to Irish syntax?

quote:

I think we shouldn't overuse "as Gaeilge". For most native speakers, the most natural phrase is "i nGaeilge"

I always thought that it's an anglicism to use "i" with languages. :-)
Esp. because it's almost always an anglicism in German, it sounds more naturally to say "auf" (= on) in German (e.g. "auf deutsch").

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on October 30, 2007)

quote:

Forms of question pronouns in infinitive phrases are common in a lot of languages:
German: Was tun?, Russian: Что делать?, English: What to do?, French: Que faire?, Italian: Che fare?

Because Irish has no infinitive, but verbal nouns instead ;-) And Irish always expresses things in a complicated way :-)

quote:

So why not Cad a dhéanamh? How about Cad le déanamh? Is it contrary to Irish syntax?

Sounds odd as well. I would put a verb somewhere in the sentence.

quote:

I always thought that it's an anglicism to use "i" with languages. :-)

Why an Anglicism, since almost all languages I can think of (ie. loads) use the preposition that means "in" to express that? (and all Celtic languages do)
Both "a(s)" and "i" are attested to say "in" + a language name in Early Irish. And "i" seems to be more common. Maybe Dennis will say more about that.

Go raibh maith agaibh, but after all the different ways to express the above, I feel a just slightly like the "Peanuts" character, (was it Lucy or Charlie Brown)? who runs off in all directions shouting "ARRGHHH...." and tearing her/his hair out. (:< )

Anyway, I do appreciate all your help, and even though I find it difficult at times, I think I am making progress in learning this language.
Go raibh maith agaibh aris.
Jeannette

I've found something that I will look for tonight that helps the learning of 'W-words' and gives an appreciation of their etymology.

quote:

'S maith ach is dóigh liom gurb iad na ceastracha eile is coitianta sa chaint.

Ní cheapfainn é. "Cén Ghaeilge atá ‘ad air?" is mó a chualas.

(Message edited by Peter on October 31, 2007)

Ceacht 67, Disc 2, Buntús Cainte

Cén Fáth (what reason) -->why

Cén chaoi (what way) -->how

Cén t-ainm (what name) (-->who)

Cén uair (what time?) -->when

Cén áit (what place) -->where

Cén luach (what price) -->how much

All Connemara forms, apparently.

It's one area where Conemara might be straight forward. Pity that they ignored Donegal when it came to things in that dialect that were most straight forward (read logical and easier for learners), or Ring, or Mayo etc