Instead of asking "how many people speak Irish at least once a day?" why not throw it on its head? "How many people don't get to speak English at least once a day because their life is mainly in Irish?" That's the real Gaeltacht. Any guesses as to how many that would be? Some place deep in the Gaeltacht where people can speak English, but generally only do so every other day or once a week. Could such a place exist in Ireland?

The proposition is a bit absurd. Define it that way and there are no "real Gaeltacht speakers" working on the police force, in the hospitals, in the schools... in any job where someone would perforce be in daily contact with "outsiders." If there is one non-Irish speaker employed in an office, everyone in that office would have to tick "daily English speaker" on the census.

I confess I don't see the point of the exercise anyway. Defining "the real Gaeltacht" as strictly as possible is good for... what, exactly? So far you've proposed further classification of "real Gaeilgeoirí" based on access to Irish-language media, based on whether or not all other members of their household speak Irish, and now based on whether they use English frequently as well. Do you feel the recent census numbers were too encouraging?

It's not even a case of not being *ABLE* to speak English at least once a day, since more or less all Irish speakers speak English as well. Except the odd youngster who hasn't been to school yet.

I still think the census needs to attempt to differentiate between native speakers (those raised in an Irish speaking home and who use it daily) and those who attained fluency later in life. And we'd still need to keep the options about daily use both inside and outside the education system etc..

"Some place deep in the Gaeltacht where people can speak English, but generally only do so every other day or once a week. Could such a place exist in Ireland?"

You could probably get away with that if you stayed in a small region within a fior-Gaeltacht and rarely left. Even then you'd probably meet people with no Irish in the pub or something like that, I imagine.

The strongest Irish speaking place I've stayed in is Gaoth Dobhair/Gweedore in Donegal. Was there two and a half weeks and heard Irish everywhere. But I've heard from a number of people who say places like Ros Muc and the islands of Inis Meáin/Inishmaan, Leitir Móir/Lettermore and Leitir Mealláin/Lettermullen are even stronger. I intend to visit them in the Spring when I'm back in the country.

What would be the point?

The census is self reporting. It is an aid to government in planning, nothing more.

So the important figure from my point of view is the 1.6 million who say they can speak Irish. This shows a high level of goodwill to the language. And puts pressure on government to increase the opportunities to speak Irish.

A detailed sociolinguistic study would be good to have. But it would make no difference top the situation of the langauge.

It might give comfort to those who would be happiest seeing the language banned, though....

But most of those 1.6 million can't string more than a couple of sentences together. I cringe every time someone trots out that figure.

Even the majority of daily speakers (some three or four hundred thousand, isn't it?) only use it in school.

I'm definitely looking forward to that gaeltacht sociolinguistic report being released. And the redrawing of gaeltacht borders.

And what do you mean by: "This shows a high level of goodwill to the language."

Most people aren't even willing to learn the language. Or use it outside of the classroom.

I do agree that the above mentioned figure is irritating to see used over and over as though it were actually accurate. I think that it shows that people feel as though they should know Irish and even wish they knew it in passing. At least those people don't dispise the language like some out there who would like to see it gone and out of their way.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Danny 2007 - ... Most people aren't even willing to learn the language. Or use it outside of the classroom.


Is fíor an méid sin. Gné amháin den 'irelandachais' é sin is dócha. A passive interest, how to convert it? Sin í an cheist.

Baineann an freagra le háit éigin i gcroí an duine. Ceol, brí, anam, misneach, gné éigin, nó gnéithe éigin, díobh sin a leigheasfaidh an t-othar.

quote:

And what do you mean by: "This shows a high level of goodwill to the language"

.

I mean that people are unlikely to claim to be able to speak a language they consider to be of no value. The fact that they do claim to speak it means they value it. This can be built on.

Deiseanna, Deiseanna, Deiseanna (agus fostaíocht!)

I did a quick straw poll in the office today on this (20 people approx, not statistically robust).

Only one of the 20 "hated" Irish and this was due to his experiences at school, two expressed enough confidence to give a radio interview in Irish (one a former teacher, the other was schooled through Irish and is regularly involved in business meetings conducted exclusively as gaeilge).

Another two (myself included) said that they were actively involved to some degree in trying to revive/improve their Gaeilge.

Four grew up in Northern Ireland or GB (one of whom is a native Welsh speaker), had never been exposed to Irish through education, and were "indifferent" to the language

The remainder could be chracterised as being happy to have the cupla focail, not interested in refreshing or improving, supportive of those wanted to do so, and certainly not hostile.

Typical group?

An Suimiuil a Shuaimhneas. That is a very clever idea. Remind us where your office is perhaps. I know you live part of the time in a Gaeltacht but I remember you saying that it was only part of the time and I assume your office is in your other location.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Riona, a chara

Our office is just outside Cork city (almost 3 hours drive from Corca Dhuibhne) That's why I can only spend some of my time there

I gCorca Dhuibhne, nó san oifig?

Touche, A Aonghuis

Go deimhin, barriocht ama san oifig, ach is ait siorai Corca D. Ba mhaith bheith dilairithe i dTig Bhric

Just to understand a little bit more ;
I can conceive that people are unable to learn Irish
I can understand that some of them are too lazy for that .
And I can understand that some others can feel indifferent to this language .
But I really don't understand why some people would despise Irish and would like to see it gone away forever.
How does it come? what harm can it do them besides irritating them because they don't understand it?
Would they feel so much better if Irish wouldn't exist ?

The relationship between Irish people and the language is complex and there are various reasons why some may despise it.

For example, the language is compulsory in schools for most students from junior school right up to the end of secondary education. In the past, corporal punsihment was a feature of our education system, and in some cases students refer to the Irish language being "beaten into them" - hence an antipathy towards the language. This, together with a view that the language has no relevance in daily life fo some people, created a negative view of the language.

For some the language is also associated with a rural background, old fashioned values, fervent nationalism and a certain type of elitism.

The ending of corporal punishment and increased fashionability has changed many attitudes - many parents want their children educated in gaelscoileanna, and TG4 projects a more modern image.

For some though, the "scars" of their past contact with the language continue to create hostility

I understand better .
I didn't know corporal punishment had been used as far as Irish was concerned . It's generally attributed to English and not Irish! (I mean to the dominant language of the moment) (in so many countries, throughout history...)
On the other hand I knew about the association with a rural background and old fashioned values for having lived it (and still living it ) in my family even if I am the 3rd generation ( and living abroad , and being a foreigner too) .
But what do you call "a certain elitism"; that doesn't go with "old fashioned values", does it?
Anyway so much the better the way of handling the problem has changed; corporal punishments leave deep scars .

Elitism in the sense that some people had fluent Irish - because they come from Irish-speaking families, perhaps teachers/academics, or those otherwise immersed in the language - Conradh na gaeilge, Gael-Linn etc. Those whose Irish was not fluent (basic school Irish and a bit rusty)might feel intimidated conversing with those who are fluent.

As the fluent speakers also speak English, that would be the medium of interaction

The "intimidation" is usually to do with a feeling of linguistic inferiority on the part of the non-fluent Irish speaker and not snobbery on the part of the Gaeilgeor

'The "intimidation" is usually to do with a feeling of linguistic inferiority on the part of the non-fluent Irish speaker and not snobbery on the part of the Gaeilgeor'

I agree with that competely. I have never hear any Irish speaker claim to be more Irish than non-Irish speakers (seans go smaoiníonn na Gaeil go bhfuilid níos gaelaí ach ní ionann sin agus Éireannachas inniu) but it is a very common belief amongst non-Irish speakers that this outlook is prevelant.

My only conclusion is that some people feel less Irish because others chose to continue speaking Irish.

My only conclusion is that some people feel less Irish because others chose to continue speaking Irish.

Aontaim leat, a Ghaelgannaire and that could be one reason for their antipathy

But the role of Irish as the national heritage of the Irish nation is key to the reason why people study it today. It is its key selling-point. So, there is no gain to the Irish-language movement in emphasising "don't worry; you don't need to learn Irish to be truly Irish", just to make people feel better. Rather, it needs to be underlined: this is a key part of your heritage. If you don't speak Irish, you can't read Irish literature, you can't understand place-names and personal names, in fact you HAVE lost all link with your past: if you are worried you are not Irish enough, WHY aren't you studying? The Irish-language movement does NOT exist in order to make monolingual English speakers feel good about themselves.

I take your point, but I don't think anyone here is questioning the raison d'etre of the langauge movement. I was just outlining for Jehan, who asked the question, why some Irish people despise/hate the Irish language.

In my view, the key to the survival of the Irish langauge is it's relevance to the Irish people. I recently renewed my interest in the language because I spend a lot of my time in the Gaeltacht - Gaeilge now has a relevance for me that it did not have previously