A couple of days ago, we talked about the bunch of English words that are being used in the Irish of the Gaeltacht. I said it did happen in all languages to borrow words from other languages, and that what is important is to conserve the "spirit" of the language.
Today I've found a nice quotation about that:

Is maith a bhí an méid sin tuigthe ag an Athair Peadar Ó Laoghaire, tráth a dúirt sé:

By far the most important matter in connection with the revival of our language is the syntax. If the syntax be good, we have good Irish, even if half the words were foreign. If the syntax be bad, the language is not Irish at all, even though each separate word be the purest Irish.

(Source: http://www.acmhainn.ie/athchlo/lorganbhearla/ , given on another thread).

True, so true - I am saying the same.

I was out in Conamara the other week and picked up many of the focail Béarla they use instead of the Gaeilge..

"Oh níl s'agam really"
"Bheadh sé sin deadly"
"Ach seriously leaids"
"Tá mé ag dul thíos go dtí an chinese"

Although it got a bit crazy talking to a fáilteoir in Óstán An Cheathrú Rua...

"Oh cinnte. Bíonn tiomanaí i gcónaí driving around."

I mean i had to laugh. Tiománaí agus driving in aon abairt amháin.

Bhuail mé le Mic Léinn Gaeilge de chuid OÉG agus mé sa chathair - úsáideann siadsan na focail béarla céanna.

Níor tháinig mé ar an méid focail béarla in úsáid go coitianta in áit ar bith eile sa tír..

A Dhomhnaill

Did you find a B&B lan-Ghaelach after all?

Bhuel mar a tharla sé thiomáin mé an bealach amach go dtí an Cheathrú Rua gan rud ar bith socraithe agam. Bhí sé thart fá a naoi nuair a shroich mé an áit agus thiomáin mé timpeall ag lorg áite. Faoi dheireadh d'aimsigh mé áit - Ard na Mara ab ainm an tí ceapaim. Nuair a d'oscail an bhean an doras labhair muid i ngaeilge leí agus d'fhreagair sí muid i mbéarla. Dúirt sí nach raibh spás aici ach dúirt muid gur mic léinn muid so bheimis sásta le rud ar bith.
Bean an tí deas - Anne Marie is ainm di, foghlaimeoir na teanga is dóigh liom ón ngalltacht.
Fad a bhí sise ag caint linn i mBéarla bhíomar ag caint i nGaeilge leí agus faoi dheireadh lean sise leis an nGaeilge :)

Ní rabhamar chomh rathúil sin le muintir an bhialann síneach ar an gCeathrú Rua >:L

Tá ceann lán-Ghaelach, mar déarfá, in Eanach Mheáin.

Er...I think there is a difference between a genuine borrowing and nativization of a foreign words and a situation where 2 languages are mixed in together in a patois. I don't think anyone thinks that the Irish should not say leoraí. It should be adapted to Irish, so the plural is leoraithe. But this business of starting a sentence in one language and finishing it in another (a bit like Gibraltarian English with 50% Spanish mixed in) is a sign of a language under pressure, not a language confidently borrowing and nativizing words.

Examples above include "Oh cinnte. Bíonn tiomanaí i gcónaí driving around." "Ach seriously leaids" These are not examples of borrowing, but of a language on the verge of extinction. Is "seriously" an Irish word? Does Irish use the suffix -ly to generate adverbs? If the answer is no, then this is an example of "native speakers" who cannot say even whole sentences in Irish without lapsing into their preferred language (Sacs-Bhéarla).

Er...I think there is a difference between a genuine borrowing and nativization of a foreign words and a situation where 2 languages are mixed in together in a patois. I don't think anyone thinks that the Irish should not say leoraí. It should be adapted to Irish, so the plural is leoraithe. But this business of starting a sentence in one language and finishing it in another (a bit like Gibraltarian English with 50% Spanish mixed in) is a sign of a language under pressure, not a language confidently borrowing and nativizing words.

Examples above include "Oh cinnte. Bíonn tiomanaí i gcónaí driving around." "Ach seriously leaids" These are not examples of borrowing, but of a language on the verge of extinction. Is "seriously" an Irish word? Does Irish use the suffix -ly to generate adverbs? If the answer is no, then this is an example of "native speakers" who cannot say even whole sentences in Irish without lapsing into their preferred language (Sacs-Bhéarla).

From the works on Manx and Scots Gaelic that looked at such things, yes, the above is certainly indicative of such a problem.

I did not experience this in Donegal, but dialects vary in how accommodating they are of this

I remember, many years ago at my first immersion weekend, my teacher gave us a copy of a short story. We then heard a tape of a 90 year old native speaker telling the story (what we had read was a transcription). The recording was old to begin with.

Anyway, the man several timesd used the word "publish" amidst his Irish. Once he reworked it "publisháilte" (or something) and I don't remember how he used it the second time. The point is, this was a native speaker using english words when perfectly good and non-obscure Irish words were available.

The Irish language *is* a language under pressure, and it will not be able to remain alive without heavy, heavy influence from english.

I tend to agree that a language is the system, regardless of the vocabulary fitted to that system. And one must remember that in living languages that system is constantly in flux. It changes from within all the time, and, frequently, it changes based on exposure to conventions of other languages. Irish has lost several cases in practical use - does that mean that Irish died then? No, nor would one argue that english died when it started adopting a massive vocabulary of straight-up foreign words.

While these changes may impinge upon some of our romanticized feelings about the sound of the language, or our favorite odd grammar rules, they need not in and of themselves be considered the death knell of Irish. Questions of "linguistic purity" - especially during a much-needed revival movement - seem rather silly and elitist. "If my Irish can't have X, then I'd rather it just die away entirely" is something I've heard many times, and sometimes even on this board. That strikes me as a selfish attitude regarding a decision we really don't get to make.

It does make for some bad attitudes toward the language. It's hard enough to get children and adults to take the time to learn it, and to have their efforts constantly disparaged is conterproductive. The fact of the matter is, Irish needs every speaker it can get, and if 30,000 gaelscoil students can achieve fluency through their school years (along with untold numbers of english-speaking adults and foreigners), compromises like the above are a small price to pay.

..... Anyway, the man several timesd used the word "publish" amidst his Irish. Once he reworked it "publisháilte" (or something) and I don't remember how he used it the second time. The point is, this was a native speaker using english words when perfectly good and non-obscure Irish words were available.

Pádraig Mac 'a Luain' a bhí ann is dóigh, a Antaine. As taifeadadh RBÉireann, 'Scéalta Cois Teallaigh'.

Ba dheas an leabhar is an téip sin a bheith ar fáil arís.

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The point is, this was a native speaker using english words when perfectly good and non-obscure Irish words were available.

This is not too bad. Things like this can be carefully recovered. It is much worse when people say things like "Tá mé chomh sona" (I am so happy). Every word is Irish, but it does not make it any better, it is an English sentence in Irish robe. Gnas na Gaelainne is something to fight and to die for. Saying "siúraltha" instead of "cinnte" and "dabht" in place of "amhras" will not kill the language. Look, I was amazed to learn that Welsh has borrowed words like "lwcus" (lucky) and "unlwcus" (inlucky) - but no one would question vitality of Welsh. At some point words garsún/gasúr, priosún were as foreign as "álraght" or "deidle" are now, but today they are perfectly legitimate. Priosún to be fair replace "carcar" or whatever, which was not Irish word either. So, aire do ghnas!

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"Ach seriously leaids" These are not examples of borrowing, but of a language on the verge of extinction. Is "seriously" an Irish word? Does Irish use the suffix -ly to generate adverbs? If the answer is no, then this is an example of "native speakers"

I agree with Róman again.
Just look at your own mothertongue: English. 2/3 of its vocabulary is French or Latin !!!

You're talking about the word "seriously" (serious is French, by the way). Have a look at words that end with -able (there are hundreds of them). That ending is just as foreign to English as -ly is to Irish!
I've a friend, who is a linguist and native speaker of English, and once he told me "if I you removed all the French and Latin words from English, you wouldn't be able to say one sentence anymore!".
However, English is not exactly a dying language... So just don't be afraid from loanwords, if something ever kills Irish, it won't be loanwords.

Lughaidh, you can say more than one sentence without French loanwords, eg "I see the sun", "I hear my mother".

The -able ending is now used productively in English. If Irish were now nativizing the ending -ly and using it productively throughout its grammar, then you would have to say it had become Irish. Do you say "go mall" or "mallly" in Irish?

Actually, Lughaidh, I think it is I, not you, who agrees with Róman... He said, "Things like this can be carefully recovered." He did not actually say that he thought gan dabht was the best for...

When we say "possible" in English, we are using a nativized word, and a nativized ending too, not lapsing into a Franco-English patois. When Irish people stop talking Irish for a couple of seconds to say "actually lads (they are speaking english, so it is lads and not leaids), seriously", they are not using internalized and nativized bits of English grammar borrowed form Irish, they are just speaking in English.

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Irish were now nativizing the ending -ly and using it productively throughout its grammar

This is antithesis. If you ban those words from Irish on puristic grounds, then how can you arrive at situation when the suffix would be "nativized"? If there were purists in Old English times - they would not have allowed -able to enter English language in the first place, would they?

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Do you say "go mall" or "mallly" in Irish?

You will never know that, unless you stop fighting with "seriously" and "deadly".

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He did not actually say that he thought gan dabht was the best for...

Neither did I say that those things have to be removed. All I said you could remove those things later if you like to. If you are sure that gnas na Gaelainne is up and running throwing odd word away here and there is not difficult.

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When we say "possible" in English, we are using a nativized word

Well, if you look at German and realize that the same word is "möglich" ("mightly" - word by word) then you are bound to see it is not so native after all. It is Franco-English patois, and even pure French as there is nothing English about "possible" - it is pure French word with accent shifted to the first syllable. No so different from "álraght" after all.

Seans go bhfuil aithne agam ar na daoine gur leo an b&b sin ar Eanach Mheáin - bíonn sé dúnta ach amháin sa samhradh..