I wonder if anybody could help me with some confusing rules regarding three nouns coming together in the genitive.
I've compiled a list of the rules that I do understand and littered them with questions.


Má bhíonn ainmfhocal cinnte sa ghinideach ar lorg ainmfhocail eile is ghnáth an chéad ainmfhocal a fhágáil gan infhilleadh, agus a thúschonsain a séimhiú.

A. Ainm duine no ainm áirithe
Cóta mhac sheáin
Pobal chathair Phort Láirge
Ag cáineadh mhuintir Shligigh

Can these constructions interchange? I.e.
Ag cáineadh mhac sheáin
Trasna chathair Phort Láirge
Pobal chontae Phort Láirge

B. Ainmfhocal a bhfuil an t-alt roimhe
Hata fhear an tí
Ag moladh chlann an fhir oibre
Caint mhná na tíre

Again, can you interchange:
Ag moladh fhear an tí
Post chlann an fhir oibre
Tús chaint mná na tíre

C. Ainmfhocal a bhfuil aidiacht shealabhach roimhe
Os cionn dhoras a thí
Fear céile iníon mo dhearthair/ fear céile mhac mo dhearthair?

D. fhocal a bhfuil gachAinm roimhe
Tar éis thús gach bliana
Ag meabhrú theideal gach leabhair/ scríbhneoireacht theideal gach leabhair?

What would happen if gach was taken away?
Ag meabhrú theideal leabhair?



E.Ainmfhocal a bhfuil ainmfhocal cinnte ar a lorg
Oifigí Ollscoil na hÉireann/ Ó thaobh iriseoireacht na Gaeilge de
I dteannta obair na scoile tráchtála
De thoradh leasú an Achta
Caighdeán litrithe Rannóg an Aistriúcháin (Should the “h” go on Rannóg here, except it can’t?)
E.g.
Caighdeán litrithe theach an Aistriúcháin
Ag léiriú Chaighdeán litrithe Rannóg an Aistriúcháin

Ag léiriú Chaighdeán litrithe theach an Aistriúcháin? (Do you continue using “h”)

Ag léiriú Chaighdeán litrithe theach an Aistriúcháin chontae Bhaile Átha Cliath????

What would happen if the construction were not qualified by Ainmfhocal cinnte eg
Ag léiriú Chaighdeán litrithe nó Ag léiriú Caighdeán litrithe?

B.
Is féidir le hainmfhocal amháin dhá ghinideach a rialú:

1. Fear ionaid an rí
Fir thosaigh na foirne
Sagairt chúnta an pharóiste


2. Is féidir le ginideach ginideach eile a rialú:
Cúirt an mhéain oíche
Obair na mná fuála

Is ainmfhocail cinnte iad na samplaí thuas go léir toisc go bhfuil an t-alt ann.
An feidir leat an t-alt a chur ar ceal?

Hata fhear tí
Ag oscailt dhorais tí

Fear ionaid Rí
Fir thosaigh foirne
Sagairt chúnta paróiste

Cúirt méain oíche
Obair mna fuála

C.
A. Is múnlaí iad a leanas:
Foireann leadóige na fraince
Teach pobail Anagaire


B. Is é An t-ainm briathartha a leanas:
Lucht foghlamtha na Gaeilge
Fear inste scéil
Cailín crúite na mbó
Coiste cosanta an phobail




Regarding the above constructions A and B, do the same rules apply as above;
Ag moladh chailín crúite na mbó
Laoch fhoireann leadóige na Fraince

Again, what happens if “cinnte” becomes “éiginnte”?
Ag cáineadh fhear inste scéil?
Ag moladh chailín crúite bó?



D.

Tuiseal ginideach ainmfhocail éiginnte nó ainm bhriathartha atá faoi réir ag ainmfhocal eile a thagann go díreach roimhe:

Nuair is ainmfhocal iolra dar críoch consan caol an chéad ainmfhocal:
Buidéil bhainne
Sagairt chúnta
Fir thosaigh
Éisc mhara

Nuair is ainmfhocal baininscneach uatha (nach ginideach) an chéad ainmfhocal
An ghaoth Mhárta (An ainmfhocal éiginnte é anseo? Nach bhfuil sé cinnte toisc go bhfuil an t-alt ann?)
Aimsir bháistí
Bean chaointe (sampla don ainm briathartha)

As “New Irish Grammar” states:
“Note: The following rule is helpful: when a common noun is preceeded by a masculine noun, the initial consonant of the common noun is not, as a rule aspirated unless the final consonant of the preceeding noun is made slender by inflexion e.g.

ga tí soluis
ach
Bord iascaigh mhara


???? Fir thosaigh na foirne ach Fir thosaigh fhoirne????

The above is in apparently in relation only to indefinite nouns ie nouns which do not have “An”?????


Also, can you argue that in relation to the construction “Sagairt chúnta an pharóiste”is not that “chúnta” is not an indefinite noun as it is qualified by “an pharóiste”? Yet the example is given.



I realise that some of these questions are quite technical and any help would be appreciated,
Seán.

Jaygon,

may I suggest you break up the question. Experience shows that short questions have a greater chance of been answered! (I should know...)

quote:

What would happen if gach was taken away?
Ag meabhrú theideal leabhair?

No, but:
meabhrú teidil leabhair = memorization of a book title.
meabhrú is masculine, so no lenition of teidil.
teideal leabhair is an indefinite noun phrase ("a book title"), so both nouns in genitive relation get their genitive forms (teideal as well as leabhar).

gach (every) makes the whole noun phrase definite (teideal gach leabhair = "the title of every book").
And only definite noun phrases avoid double genitives and use the so-called functional genitive (i.e. "an chéad ainmfhocal a fhágáil gan infhilleadh, agus a thúschonsain a séimhiú")
So it is:
meabhrú theideal gach leabhair = the memorization of the title of every book.

Lars

quote:

What would happen if the construction were not qualified by Ainmfhocal cinnte eg
Ag léiriú Chaighdeán litrithe nó Ag léiriú Caighdeán litrithe?

"ag léiriú" isn't a good example, because I wouldn't use gentive of indefinite nouns with attributes like "caighdeán litrithe" (a written standard, a standard of orthography*) following verbal nouns.
(As well as in my last post "ag meabhrú", so I left out "ag" and used "meabhrú" as a proper noun)
With "ag" I'd rather say:
ag meabhrú teideal leabhair = memorizing a book title.

So here it is
ag léiriú caighdeán litrithe
The word caighdeán isn't lenited because leiríú isn't feminine.**
(It would only be lenited as a "functional genitive" in definite noun phrases as explained in my last post)

Let's take another example:
leabhar caighdeáin litrithe = a book of a written standard / a book of a standard of orthography.
Here "caighdeán" gets its genitive form following a proper noun like "leabhar".
Because leabhar is masculine there's no lenition.

Lars

*) I'd rather translate litrithe alone as a simple verbal adjective ("written") and would not regard it as a genitive of "litriú")

**) Lenition following verbal nouns is rare even if the verbal noun would be feminine, e.g. "baint mhóna" (That's the only example I can think of)

(Message edited by Lars on September 26, 2007)

Other examples: ag gabháil cheoil, ag gabháil fhoinn, ag fáil bháis...

quote:

ag gabháil cheoil, ag gabháil fhoinn, ag fáil bháis...

GRMA, I should have remembered them. These are common phrases and so petrified remnants of older usage).
E.g. ag fáil bháis, but: ag fáil cúnaimh

Lars

Thank you for the insight,
I appreciate that the questions were badly laid out, so I will try to present them in a shorter, clearer fashion.
Some of the questions have already been answered:

Ceist 1:

Regarding Ainmfhocal (Cinnte) which come one after another:
There were 5 sub-headings

My question is: For a functional genitive,
should there be three nouns which come after one another e.g

Hata fhear an tí
Cota mhac Sheáin
caint mhná na tíre

Or can it be 2 nouns and any other construction which introduces the genitive e.g

Ag moladh mhuintir shligigh
Trasna chathair Phort Láirge
Os cionn dhoras a thí
Fear chéile mhac mo dhearthair


The Question regarding "gach" has been answered by Lars.
I'm presuming that if the above nouns were not "cinnte" (as stated by Lars) then the functional genitive aspect would be dropped and the structure of the phrase would revert back to: Ordinary genitive in which the second noun may agree with the first due to gender.

Os cionn dorais tí (no seimhiú because doras is masculine)
Caint mhná tire (séimhiú because caint is feminine)

I'm still unseure regarding the use of "An séimhiú" in longer constructuions such as Caighdeán litrithe Rannóg an Aistriúcháin

Obviously it is not suitable to place a "h" on words beginning with "R", but should a "h" go on the word where rannóg is?
e.g Caighdeán litrithe theach an Aistriúcháin?

Do you keep introducing "h" as the phrase becomes longer?



I will leave it at question one for today,
Thanks in advance,
Seán.

quote:

Or can it be 2 nouns and any other construction which introduces the genitive e.g

Most of them are nouns, too (moladh, cionn, fear chéile}, except trasna.
I would use lenition here, too, as in your examples (except doras because cionn ends in -n).

quote:

Os cionn dorais tí (no seimhiú because doras is masculine)
Caint mhná tire (séimhiú because caint is feminine)

No, it's the gender of the noun governing the genitive which causes lenition or not, i.e. cionn, caint.

And: Following prepositions like "os cionn" there's usually no lenition.
And: Following -d, -n, -t, -l, -s there's no lenition of d, t, s.

quote:

Caighdeán litrithe theach an Aistriúcháin?
Do you keep introducing "h" as the phrase becomes longer?

Yes. Even if there would be a hundred nouns.

Lars

Trasna was a noun in Old Irish (tarsnu, if I remember well).

Thanks for the insight guys:

I guess what I'm really asking is:

For a noun to be governed by the ginideach it must be preceeded by a noun, a compound preposition, the verbal noun, or trasna/timpeall/cois/chun

I was wondering if all of the above cases would govern the functional genitive.

Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge outlines many of the examples that I highligted above but the section was not clear whether or not the functional genitive can occur only by 3 nouns coming together or also in the cases of the compound preposition, the verbal noun and the four highlihted words.

It was illustrated that in the case of the verbal noun, that this works. That makes sense as a verbal noun contains a noun.


Trasna was also accepted above as it was a noun in an older form. I wonder if this is the same case for cois/timpeall/chun?


It was stated that following prepositions like "os cionn" there is usually no lenition. I do not understand this. If a compound preposition governs a noun and places it in the genitive, why does this not occur in the case of a functional genitive? Why no lenition?

Regarding the d,n,t,l,s rule:
Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge
pg,93 states os cionn dhoras a thí, ignoring this.

"No, it's the gender of the noun governing the genitive which causes lenition or not, i.e. cionn, caint.

And: Following prepositions like "os cionn" there's usually no lenition.
And: Following -d, -n, -t, -l, -s there's no lenition of d, t, s."

Is the above statement in relation to indefinite nouns?
e.g Os cionn dorais tí or to definite nouns e.g os cionn dhoras a thí?

In the case of indefinite nouns in this construction, and I am sorry if I'm repeating myself but I wrote "caint mhná tíre"
But this is incorrect because the only lenition that could occur here is in the place where the word "tíre" occurs? Was that the point being made?


A checklist which separates the rules regarding definite nouns and indefinite nouns in the context of the functional genitive would be really helpful.

Thanks to everybody in advance as I would like to get this straight in my head and academic work.

Seán.

If there is no definite noun, the functional genitive cannot occur?Is that correct?

quote:

I was wondering if all of the above cases would govern the functional genitive.

Yes.

quote:

Trasna was also accepted above as it was a noun in an older form. I wonder if this is the same case for cois/timpeall/chun?

All of them are nouns, at least etymologically.
cois (dative of foot), timpeall (round?) and chun (OI verbal noun dochum = striding toward?, IIRC)

quote:

It was stated that following prepositions like "os cionn" there is usually no lenition.

Yes, in case of normal genitives.

quote:

I do not understand this.

No rule without 12 exceptions :-) This is one of them.

quote:

If a compound preposition governs a noun and places it in the genitive, why does this not occur in the case of a functional genitive? Why no lenition?

There is usually lenition, but see below:

quote:

Regarding the d,n,t,l,s rule:
Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge
pg,93 states os cionn dhoras a thí, ignoring this.

Here it is a "functional genitive" (as asked in your first question above)
In this case, lenition usually occurs following compound prepositions, as lenition usually occurs in functional genitives.
e.g. "os cionn chathair Bhaile Átha Cliath"
But I would apply the "d,n,t,l,s rule", too (i.e. usually no lenition of homoorganic sounds following one another)
E.g. at
www.Daltaí.com, Star Sprangled Banner, ("O'er the land of the free ...) no lenition in "Os cionn tír na gcróga",
or at "Scrúdú na hArdteistiméireachta 2005, Gaeilge Ardleibhéal" no lenition in "os cionn Dealbh na Saoirse" mar shampla.
But you may find examples with lenition, as well
www.sluggerotoole.com "os cionn dhíon Phálás na Vatacáine", mar shampla.

There are two competing rules, a grammatical and a phonological rule. So you have to decide on your own ... ;-)

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on October 01, 2007)

Scríobh mé:

quote:

And: Following prepositions like "os cionn" there's usually no lenition.
And: Following -d, -n, -t, -l, -s there's no lenition of d, t, s."

Agus scríobh tusa:

quote:

Is the above statement in relation to indefinite nouns?
e.g Os cionn dorais tí or to definite nouns e.g os cionn dhoras a thí?

The first statement is in relation to real genitives.
In functional genitives there is lenition even following compound prepositions, cois, trasna, etc.
The second statement (dentals rule) is much more essential, I'd think.

quote:

In the case of indefinite nouns in this construction, and I am sorry if I'm repeating myself but I wrote "caint mhná tíre"
But this is incorrect because the only lenition that could occur here is in the place where the word "tíre" occurs? Was that the point being made?

Genitive and lenition is a book with seven seals ...
Caint is a feminine noun, so lenition would occur.
But here (talk of a woman) it is a genitive of action (it's the woman who talks).
So, no lenition occurs (e.g. seitreach capaill, whinny of a horse, mar shampla)
And caint is a verbal noun, so lenition would occur only in a few set phrases.
Generally spoken, lenition is due to a relationship between two words following another, so "tíre" or anything in its position is irrespective.
But because caint is a verbal noun and there is a further attribute like "tíre", I'd use no genitive of "bean" at all:
caint bean tíre. = a woman's ... (bean = nominative sing.)
caint mná tíre = women's ... (mná = nominative plural)

I hope, I didn't obfuscate you ...
Lars

Lars,
Thank you so very much for the insight! I think that I finally understand the majority of that structure!
I'm going to move on to the second part of my initial query.

Again, I'll move from what I do know to what I do not.

The second structure that I had highlighted in which 3 nouns came together (but no functional genitive) seems to have two forms:



1. Fear ionaid an rí
Fir thosaigh na foirne
Sagairt chúnta an pharóiste


2.
Cúirt an mhéain oíche
Obair na mná fuála

The structures differ due to the positioning of an t-alt but they are similar in that there are 2 genitives in the phrase.

Firstly, is there any reason or meaning for the above structures i.e titles of jobs etc.? Do they differ in structure for a reason?

Regarding lenition:
I presume that as they are all actual genitives (and not functional genitives)that the rules of lenition as higlighted in the previous message:

Fir thosaigh (iolra, slender) etc.

What would happen if you made the phrases of the above structures indefinite i.e cancel an t-alt?

Would any change occur to the final noun in the first structure Fir thosaigh Foirne?

or in the second style:
Obair mná fuala?

Agus i dtaca le 'timpeall' a luadh thuas, an dá réamhfhocal Ghaeilge 'do+im' móide 'cella', ainmfhocal na Laidine, a thug 'timcheall' > 'timpeall' dúinn. An t-ainmfhocal sin, 'ceall' > 'cill', is bun leis an nginideach ar ndóigh.

quote:

Fear ionaid an rí [...]
Cúirt an mhéain oíche [...]

The structures differ due to the positioning of an t-alt but they are similar in that there are 2 genitives in the phrase.

Firstly, is there any reason or meaning for the above structures i.e titles of jobs etc.? Do they differ in structure for a reason?

I think I don't really understand what you mean.
They differ because they are different.

Fear ionaid an rí = (Fear ionaid) an rí = the represantative (fear ionaid) of the king
Cúirt an mhéain oíche = Cúirt (an mhéain oíche) = the Court of the midnight (an meán oíche).

Words in parenthesis are a unit, a compound.

The genitive of compound nouns like meán oíche (midnight) is made by changing their first noun: meáin oíche (= midnight's)
Compounds like fear ionaid (representative) can govern additional genitives: fear ionaid an rí (the king's representative).

Lars

Lars,
Sorry, I was not clear but you have answered my question.

I can see that the above constructions are all lenited as highlighted in the last posts.

If they are made Éiginnte, is there any change: e.g Fear ionaid rí? Cúirt méain oíche?Obair mná fuala? Fir thosaigh Foirne?Sagairt chúnta paróiste?Fear inste scéil?

I presume that all of the above could only be extended into the functional genitive,if the clause is cinnte.

Moladh Chailín crúite na mbó

Moladh fhear ionaid an rí

ach:

Cáineadh oibre mná fuala????
Cáineadh fir inste scéil????
Phew:
I think that wraps up all of my questions re: Noun clauses and lenition!


Seán.

quote:

If they are made Éiginnte, is there any change:

Not at all.

quote:

I presume that all of the above could only be extended into the functional genitive,if the clause is cinnte.

Yes

quote:

Cáineadh oibre mná fuala????
Cáineadh fir inste scéil????

Cáineadh is a verbal noun.
I would not use genitive of indefinite nouns following verbal nouns, neither real genitive nor functional genitive:
Cáineadh obair mná fuala
Cáineadh fear inste scéil

Lars

Great!
I think I'm really getting it now.
One last thing (isn't there always)

Regarding indefinite noun clauses in which 3 nouns come together.
I just want to confirm that there is never lenition of the third noun
e.g
Fear ionaid rí, Cúirt méain oíche,Obair mná fuala, Fir thosaigh Foirne,Sagairt chúnta paróiste,Fear inste scéil.

I found reference to the following rule:

As “New Irish Grammar” states:
“Note: The following rule is helpful: when a common noun is preceeded by a masculine noun, the initial consonant of the common noun is not, as a rule aspirated unless the final consonant of the preceeding noun is made slender by inflexion e.g.

ga tí soluis
ach
Bord iascaigh mhara

Should it be for example
Fir thosaigh fhoirne (fear+tosach)

Seán.

This is a tricky one! There's actually disagreement between grammar books here. According to the Caighdeán Oifigiúil there should be no lenition here; according to the Christian Brothers there should*.

*and it's stated in Graiméar Gaeilge na mB. C. as a positive rule (although as usual, one with a slew of exceptions behind it), i.e. "séimhítear nuair X" rather than "not aspirated, as a rule, unless X."

Who ya gonna believe?

However, your examples are unfortunate. "Rí", "oíche" and "scéil" can't be lenited anyway; "fuala" and "foirne" wouldn't be because they start with "f", and "sagart chúnta paróiste" doesn't fall under this rule anyway.