I can't imagine that there hasn't been dozens of discussions on this, but I probably just have poor searching skills. If someone can point me to another thread related to this topic, please do.

Anyhow, I've started Learning Irish as my text of choice for an independent study course at my school (as in, I get credit for it, so I have to do it now!). It's going smoothly so far. Pronunciation is more or less making sense (anyone who starts with Teach Yourself Irish would think that the devil on steroids concocted its orthography), but I do have some questions.

QUOTE: Nothing in fact distinguishes the sound of beo from that of bó, and that of bí from that of buí, but the sort of b used.

So the e in beo is just like a marker that tells us the b is slender. Could it theoretically be spelled bio and be pronounced the same? If the u in buí just tells us the b is broad, why can't we spell it baí or boí? Does that make any sense?

My second question is on the distinction of broad vs. slender in non-initial positions. Gall vs. geall and lae vs. léigh are fairly easy, but while I can (sort of) hear the differene between bréag and bréig, Nollag and Nollaig, I'm having trouble producing these sounds. What technically speaking, is happening in the mouth that distinguishes these? Does anyone know of pictures or mouth movement drawings I can look at? I'm a pretty visual person. :-)

Lastly, I'm not even going to lie you, I hear absolutely no difference between caill and cáil, Spáinn and 'spáin etc. It seems nothing like Italian, for example, where double consonants are quite easy to hear and pronounced, because they're just lengethed ... pena vs. penna, bella vs. bela. Any tips for this?

I appreciate any help you can give. Good pronunciation is very important to me, and I'm eager to hash out all the details at the beginning. Go raibh maith agat.

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So the e in beo is just like a marker that tells us the b is slender.

That is correct

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Could it theoretically be spelled bio and be pronounced the same?

Irish spelling is based on orthographical tradition, so yes it could have been spelled that way - but it wasn't.

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If the u in buí just tells us the b is broad, why can't we spell it baí or boí?

Because the word derives from *buidhe, where "u" was pronounced, and 'i' just marked slenderness of 'dh'. Later pronunciation changed - but the spelling stayed.

Just to answer your next logical question - in all 2 vowel letter combinations the vowel with fada is pronounced and short vowel is a marker of slenderness/broadness. "eo" used to be spelled "eó" before - so this gives clue how it is pronounced. When you have two SHORT vowels - there is no quick way to know which one is pronounced AND pronunciation is different among dialects. You just have to learn it with every word. You seem to have started Conamara dialect - and I am not qualified to recommend you pronunciation of that dialect. Munster dialect I study has a bit different pronunciation of those two-vowel combinations.

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What technically speaking, is happening in the mouth that distinguishes these?

I am almost sure it is impossible to produce those sounds from description, the best thing you can do - imitate the records. One small tip: for b/p/m/bh slenderness try producing those sounds with unnatural smile (with mouth "from ear to ear", but tightly closed) - you will get slender sound.

(Message edited by Róman on September 22, 2007)

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Does anyone know of pictures or mouth movement drawings I can look at? I'm a pretty visual person. :-)

There are drawings of that in the book Bunchúrsa Foghraíochta. I hope it is not out of sale.

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I hear absolutely no difference between caill and cáil, Spáinn and 'spáin etc.

Normally, in Ulster and Connaught, there's a difference.
The -ll in caill is pronounced as Italian gli (since it seems you know Italian), and -nn in Spáinn as Italian gn. Cáil has a plain l, and 'spáin has a plain n, so pronounce them as in Italian. In IPA, if i'm not mistaken (my dialect is Ulster, not Connaught), in Connemara they say:
caill [kˠɑːλ]
cáil [kˠɑːl]
Spáinn [spʷɑːɲ]
’spáin [spʷɑːn]

QUOTE: The -ll in caill is pronounced as Italian gli (since it seems you know Italian), and -nn in Spáinn as Italian gn.

Go raibh maith agat, a Lughaidh. This is a very helpful explanation.

Róman, thanks for the short historical background. That clarifies things considerably. The records that come with Learning Irish have proved pretty invaluable, and I'll continue to imitate to the best of my ability. =) When I listen to recordings of native speakers, no matter what dialect, the Irish always sounds wonderfully beautiful, but I'm sometimes struck by how ugly it can turn when mishandled by non-natives. I'm very anxious to have good pronunciation and speak Irish as it's meant to be ... because it can be very a very unpleasant thing to listen to bad pronunciation; it really takes the beauty away for me. Thanks again for your help!

I put it differently. It is not "ugly" per se - but it is simply incomprehensible if pronunciation is bad. There are just small things that distinguish "capall" and "capaill", "fear" and "fearr", or (my favorite) b'fhearr vs barr - and if pronunciation is bad you don't understand what the person is trying to say.