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Finbarr
Member Username: Finbarr
Post Number: 40 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 09:41 pm: |
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there seems to be a glut of Irishmen and women tending bar in NYC. I sit at the pubs thinking about saying a word or two to the mostly 20somethings, like "2 pints please," or "thanks" in Irish. Of course, I always chicken out, figuring they'll look at me like I'm crazy (we speak English in Ireland mostly, now I'm in America, where you all are monolingual English-speakers, and you're trying to speak to me in Irish?? wth?). What's the chance that a 20 something from Ireland that just arrived in the last year or two knows or remembers any Irish? And, on a much tougher thing to speculate, would not laugh me out of the bar if I attempted to say a few words (this of course is really stereotyping). |
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Antaine
Member Username: Antaine
Post Number: 1095 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 01:54 am: |
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What I've found is that even if they remember the vocab (and we're only talking about a couple words) they're a) not expecting to hear it and b) usually it's noisy. Typically they ask you to repeat yourself, assuming they simply couldn't make out what you were saying - and then when they realize it's Irish tell you how they hated it in school and consequently "don't remember a word." The trick is to see if you can pry something loose from that point, but unless the person is from a gaeltacht you're not likely to get much. at least that's been my experience )-; |
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Dáithí Ó Geanainn (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 04:54 am: |
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Yep - I was in Dingle /Dangle (An Daingean ) in the summer agus mé ar cúrsa Gaeilge i gCorca Dhuibhne.Bhí sé go h-iontach ar fad.Ach nuair a bhí mé sa Daingean, nior chuala mé focal amhain as Gaeilge. I went in to a pub and asked for "Dhá phíonta" - he came back with a coffee!! As he was a young Irishman of about 23,I said to him "Nach bhfuil aon Gaeilge agat ar bith?" He replied "oh..you're speaking irish?" And this in the supposed Gaeltacht and he with 12 years of schooling in Irish and he didn't even recognise it. my pronuncation may be poor, but it's not that poor! Not a great encouragement for learners but that's the truth of it. MOST Irish people love the IDEA of the language ("Ah, me ould granny still can say her prayers in Irish") - but they themselves do not have Irish, do not have any interest in it and are often embarassed if you do. So..sod them, then! Let's the rest of us understand the reality, breathe a brief sigh..but then get on with promoting it. Maybe we can shame the great Irish public into waking up to what they're missing...though I doubt it. Dáithí i Sasana |
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Fearn
Member Username: Fearn
Post Number: 546 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 05:22 am: |
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Dála an scéil, a dhaithí, an dtuigeann muintir Shasana do chuid béarla ? |
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Mise_fhéin
Member Username: Mise_fhéin
Post Number: 281 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 05:57 am: |
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"Ach nuair a bhí mé sa Daingean, nior chuala mé focal amhain as Gaeilge. " is aisteach an rud é sin mar bhíos ann le déanaí agus tá chomh mór Gaeilge cloiste agam gur cheap mé go rabhas sa fíor-Ghaeltacht, ar ndóigh thosaigh mé chuid mhór des na comhráite Gaeilge siúd. "Dhá phíonta" Tá an t-ádh leat nár tháinig sé ar ais le dhá Simthwicks |
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Fearn
Member Username: Fearn
Post Number: 548 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 06:01 am: |
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"Dhá phíonta" ? Sea, thriall mé an cleas chéanna sa Dhaingean, ach dúirt an bhean in aice liom gur eaglais a bhí ann agus d'fhógair amuigh orm. ;-) Chomh mímhúinte leis! |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6211 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 06:03 am: |
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"Piunt" seachas pionta a bhíonn acu ó dheas. |
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Fearn
Member Username: Fearn
Post Number: 549 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 06:46 am: |
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Ach is gnáth dom slogadh i milílíotair. ;-) [Deanaim "aistriú" idir gloine is béal] |
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Finbarr
Member Username: Finbarr
Post Number: 41 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 09:25 pm: |
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that's what I expected, sadly. Perhaps I'll try gaeltalk first... |
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 510 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 06:12 am: |
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Why? I mean, if your pronunciation is so bad you can't be understood, I could see the logic in it - but if the problem is (as Antaine suggests) that these people wouldn't have enough Irish themselves to understand or talk to you, I don't imagine your taking a Gaeltalk course is going to help with that. I'd say go ahead and try the cupla focal with them - nothing ventured, nothing gained! - but slow down and "centralize" your pronunciation a bit for a better chance of being understood. For example when I'm speaking to someone and I don't know if they have much Irish, I'll say "Go raibh maith agat" rather than my usual "Gurrama'ad." People are more likely to understand you (and if they only have cúpla focal themselves, less likely to be intimidated), and you can always relax into normal speech once you've got a conversation going. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Rg_cuan
Member Username: Rg_cuan
Post Number: 68 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 07:09 am: |
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I'm a 20-something Irish fella and if i (or most of my friends) was working in a bar in An tÚll Mór i could anwser you. Then again we speak Irish, are from the North and are in a minority in our own country, thuaidh nó theas. But just to let you know that not everybody would stare back blankly at you. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 650 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:27 am: |
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"Piunt" seachas pionta a bhíonn acu ó dheas. Cé fáth chreidfeadh sé go raibh "piunt" caife? Is ait an mac an saol.
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 511 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:43 am: |
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Ní "piunt" a deireadh sa gcás seo, ach "dhá phíonta". Braitheann sé ar bhlas an chainteora, ar ndóigh, ach is féidir liom a shamhlú nár chualathas an siolla deireanach agus gur fhuaimníodh "dhá phí" mar "goffee", a bheag nó a mhór. Más ea, agus mura raibh an freastalaí ag súil le Gaeilge a chloisteáil, b'éasca dó glacadh leis gur "coffee" a bhí i gceist agus go raibh slaghdán nó rud eicínt ag cur isteach ar an gcustaiméir. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Mise_fhéin
Member Username: Mise_fhéin
Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:50 am: |
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"Sea, thriall mé an cleas chéanna sa Dhaingean, ach dúirt an bhean in aice liom gur eaglais a bhí ann agus d'fhógair amuigh orm. ;-) Chomh mímhúinte leis!!" GOA :) maith thú fearn |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 651 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 12:35 pm: |
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Quote: Ní "piunt" a deireadh sa gcás seo, ach "dhá phíonta". Maith go leor agus go raibh maith agat, a Aibigéal. Tuigim go ba dha phí(onta) gheall leis goffee aige. Áfach, ní thuigim "piunt." Cad é tá an bhrí don fhocal sin? Is ait an mac an saol.
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 512 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 12:47 pm: |
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Malairt focail ar "pionta" atá ann, más fíor d'Aonghus. (Níl sé cloiste agam féin ach ní chuirfeadh sé lá iontais orm.) Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Fearn
Member Username: Fearn
Post Number: 555 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 01:02 pm: |
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""Sea, thriall mé an cleas chéanna sa Dhaingean, ach dúirt an bhean in aice liom gur eaglais a bhí ann agus d'fhógair amuigh orm. ;-) Chomh mímhúinte leis!!" GOA :) maith thú fearn" Go ndéana a mhaith duit, a mhise fhéin |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 652 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 02:32 pm: |
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más fíor d'Aonghus Cá bhfuil tú, a Aonghuis? Is ait an mac an saol.
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6223 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 04:38 pm: |
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Annso! Leagan canúnach a bhíonn acu ó dheas a thug mé; seans nach bhfuil an litriú go hiomlán cruinn. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6228 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 05:10 pm: |
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Seo giota de scéal a fuair mé ó Micheál Ó Dubhshláine (trócaire Dé air) quote:‘Líon naoi bpiúnt go tapaidh!’ arsa Naomh Pádraig léi. Líon sí na pint agus chuir gach aon cheann taobh taobh lena chéile ar an gcuntúirt. D’fhanadar go léir go raibh an ceann déanach líonta. D’ardaigh Naomh Pádraig an chéad piúnt, agus d’ardaíodar go léir na pint. ‘Sláinte mhaith!’ arsa Naomh Pádraig. ‘Sláinte mhaith!’ arsa gach éinne acu i dteannta a chéile. Bhí an gloinne curtha díreach go dtí a bhéal aige nuair a stad Naomh Pádraig. Chuaigh sé go dtí an fhuinneog agus chuir an piúnt idir é féin agus an ghrian. ‘Níl an piúnt sin lán go barra!’ ar seisean.. |
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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 286 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 02:53 am: |
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"And this in the supposed Gaeltacht and he with 12 years of schooling in Irish and he didn't even recognise it. my pronuncation may be poor, but it's not that poor!" I have some genuine curiosity, relative to this point, on how Irish is taught in Ireland. What exactly is the pedagogical method employed in teaching Irish to students? Does it vary from school to school? Is it systematic? Does it teach grammar or just a bunch of stock phrases to be memorized blindly? Please be clear, I'm not trying to be judgmental or critical, but it is absolutely inconceivable to me that anybody could study a language for that amount of time and not be able to converse at a basic level. Does nobody ever receive a failing grade? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1958 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 05:02 pm: |
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I'm not able to answer precisely because I've never been in an Irish school, I can just tell you it's true: after more than 10 years learning Irish at school, most young Irish people are not able to speak it (except some basic phrases learnt by heart... if they remember them!) nor to understand it. I did the experience. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Antaine
Member Username: Antaine
Post Number: 1096 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 11:28 pm: |
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gaelscoileanna not withstanding, if the regular way of teaching irish in schools is anything like how we teach foreign languages in the US (and I imagine it is), then it is a wonder any of them learn focal amháin. the traditional way of teaching languages is not conducive to language acquisition. i am a firm believer after many years of studying several langauges utilizing numerous methods that the only way to get anywhere meaningful in a language is a bare minimum of three months of 24/7 immersion. |
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Aindréas
Member Username: Aindréas
Post Number: 196 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:32 am: |
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I think the main problem may be the system allows for students to slack off (in the US at least, maybe Ireland too). The curriculum can be effective when the student wants it to be. I speak fairly passable Spanish, and studied it for two years in highschool. If it had been a consistent curriculum from around fifth grade all the way through graduation, I'm sure I would be quite fluent. But I definitely made an effort, and saw the whole spectrum from those who could care less to those who took what the teacher gave them and ran with it. Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.
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Aoife Gately (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:23 pm: |
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As a young Irish person i feel obliged to say "you know some of us will make the effort!" lol cinte nil me abalta litru ar bith as gaelige ach deanaim irracht cun mo theanga duchais a caint i mo bhaile! Im 16 years old and going to secondary school in mbaile atha cliath... nach bhfuil se ait ach ta ar dteanga fos beo i mo schoil agus i mo chlann... i speak irish at home to my family and my cousin who is 3 speak only irish. i do believe though that if more of our primary education in irish was to do wit speaking it a lot more people would feel more comfortable speaking it! And in reply to Lughaidh I worked in a gaelscoil for my work experience and was amazed at how fluent the children were.. I do believe that the Irish language is not going to die out in the near future.. Then again I am an optimist! |
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Diarmo
Member Username: Diarmo
Post Number: 243 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 02:28 pm: |
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I think the reason for the weakness in irish speaking is not due to poor teaching but due to lack of interest and maybe embarassment to speak it... |
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Antaine
Member Username: Antaine
Post Number: 1097 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 02:35 pm: |
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"my cousin who is 3 speak only irish" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FANTASTIC!!!! The kid will undoubtedly pick up english swiftly and well, being immersed in it outside of the home, and will suffer nothing in school for it. But he/she will be fluent in Irish without even trying, which is 99% of the battle. I think people would use it if they had it (and their neighbors), but it's the layout of time, money and effort that most people fall down on. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1959 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 03:54 pm: |
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quote:And in reply to Lughaidh I worked in a gaelscoil for my work experience and was amazed at how fluent the children were.. I wasn't talking about Gaelscoltacha but about English medium schools. And anyway, I think there are children who have been in a Gaelscoil and who don't speak properly as well. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Aindréas
Member Username: Aindréas
Post Number: 197 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 04:19 pm: |
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Lughaidh, this is kind of off topic, but I've been using your "sounds of Irish" page to try to help my pronunciation. Since you are French, I'm wondering how much your accent plays into your Irish. I mean, can people tell when you speak Irish, as far as pronunciation goes, that you are a non-native speaker? You seem to distinguish each sound so well that I wonder if you have any foreign accent at all. Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6232 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 04:26 pm: |
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quote:think there are children who have been in a Gaelscoil and who don't speak properly as well. As usual, it depends on the teacher. Fluent teachers are in short supply. I have heard Lughaidh voice once on a longer piece. He had a very slight accent. Fluent foreign speakers often have. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1962 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 05:52 pm: |
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Well, even the Irish people whose mothertongue is English have an accent when they learn Irish (often more than me). My accent is not as perfect as a native's one, but since no native speaker (as far as I know) puts such recordings on the web, you see... But that's for the accent: the music of the language. For that, my accent is not fully native-like. But for the sounds themselves (consonants, vowels etc), I'm pretty sure the sounds of Irish I put on Phouka's website are identical to those of a native. I've learnt them from natives. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 6234 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 06:08 pm: |
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quote:the Irish people whose mothertongue is English have an accent when they learn Irish (often more than me) . Absolutely. Blas seachas foghraíocht a bhí i gceist agam. And "very slight" means just that! |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1965 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 12:49 pm: |
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Go rabh maith agat, a chara :-) Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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brn on tour (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 07:21 am: |
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"cinte nil me abalta..." Should cinnte not be used at the end of phrases, mar shampla "ní rabh mé ann, cinnte" ? "i mo schoil agus i mo chlann" 'Scoil' cannot be lenited due to 'sc'; clann is 'kids', not family "amazed at how fluent the children were.." Yes but cén sórt Gaeilg atá ann? Have they an equal range of use as their L1? ""my cousin who is 3 speak only irish"" ("!!!!!!!!!") This means 'speak only to (in Irish)', not that they child can only speak Irish, or so I read it "I have heard Lughaidh voice once on a longer piece." Yes, he has lovely diction |
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Aindréas
Member Username: Aindréas
Post Number: 199 Registered: 09-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 08:56 am: |
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quote:This means 'speak only to (in Irish)', not that they child can only speak Irish, or so I read it This means you doubt a three year old to have speaking capabilities, because of his age? I have known amazingly expressive 3 year olds who construct full sentences, tell stories, and participate in conversations, equally well in more than one language. Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.
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brn on tour (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 09:09 am: |
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No, I meant that it sounded like the child only spoke in irish -I was pointing out that the sentance would more logically imply that the lady only speaks irish to a bi-lingual child. Of course, 3 year olds are articulate! |
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 1222 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 04:54 pm: |
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So glad to see you back a Bhearn. Where are you on tour? :) I missed you partially because I suspect that the only-speaking-Irish thread would have lasted longer if you had been here. As to 3 year olds, I read the sentense to mean that the 3 year old speaks only Irish but that is perhaps wishful thinking. Beir bua agus beannacht |
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brn on tour (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 08:34 am: |
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Not yet -I'm off to Korea to teach english, but I have a few things to sort out first. It would be great if he was monolingual, of course... |
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 1223 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 07:15 pm: |
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I hope you can still talk with us while there. Beir bua agus beannacht |
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brn (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 10:14 am: |
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Don't worry, they and Japan have the fastest broad band speeds in the world -I should able to haunt the place like i never left... |
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Rg_cuan
Member Username: Rg_cuan
Post Number: 85 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 10:27 am: |
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Ádh mór ort a BRN, bain sult as an Choiré! |
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