Hi everyone,
I'm delighted to finally post on these boards. (I posted a topic yesterday but for some reason it hasn't appeared in the forum.

I was hoping that somebody could help me with some grammar questions.

The first query relates to "An séimhiú".

Regarding the word "Féin". Although the grammar books state that there is no séimhiú attached to "Féin", I have seen the word written in certain places as "Fhéin". I'm aware that this is how the word is pronounced but I'm wondering if there are instances where it can be written in the above form complete with séimhiú.

My second question relates to prepositional pronouns which begin with "D". I read in an old "Teach yourself Irish" book that prepositional pronouns that begin with "d" and follow a word which ends in a vowel, must take a séimhiú e.g Dia dhuit. I read that this relates to the Tuiseal Tabhartach.

I have not found this rule in any other grammar book and have often seen the above phrase written as Dia duit, without séimhiú. Can anybody confirm this rule?

Thirdly, I have a query relating to the structure of the verbal noun:

Tá sé á dhéanamh/ Tá sí á déanamh:He is doing it (masculine object)/she is doing it (feminine object)


I'm presuming that "á" refers to the object of the sentence and agrees with the gender of that object. If the object is masculine, the verbal noun which follows takes a "H", if the verb is feminine, no "H" is added. Is that correct???

If an agent is added to the clause, do the rules change?
Tá sé á dhéanamh agam
Tá sí á déanamh agam

Here, the verb agress with the gender of the object which is expressed in sé or sí (taking a "H" if masculine and no "H" if feminine)
Is that correct?
But if the verbal noun is agreeing with the Sé/Sí and not the "á", as above, what function does "á" have in the clause???

If the "It" that is being referred to is ambiguous, does masculinity take precedence?
e.g I'm doing it! Tá sé á dhéanamh agam!

Thanks in advance,
Seán.

Féin cannot have séimhiú ever. Writing "fhéin" is an inept attempt to represent pronunciation [he:n`] very popular in the north, but it is bad for two reasons:

1. "fh" is not [h], so this spelling is inaccurate, to say the least

2. There are many Irish words where "f" is pronounced [h] (not even mentioning the whole future tense) - cófra, fiafraíonn (second one), uafásach. There is a certain tendency to turn word internal "f" into "h" - but no one is advocating writing "fh" there - except for "f(h)éin". So, it is better to write "féin" on all occasions.

Duit spelling is not related to dative. It is dialect dependant. In Ulster it is alway without séimhiú, in Connacht always with séimhiú, and in Munster séimhiú if after a preceding vowel, and no séimhiú if consonant precedes.

Á - no it relates to the gender of object, not subject. "sé", "sí" in the sentences you provide are SUBJECTS, not objects.

You can have: Tá sé á déanamh (e.g. scoil - feminine, .i. He is building her [the school]), you can also have Tá sí á dhéanamh (e.g. arán - She is baking him [the bread]). Thus, "á" in those sentences does not refer to "sé", "sí" before them - it refers to object known from previous sentence.

(Message edited by róman on September 11, 2007)

quote:

is an inept attempt to represent pronunciation [he:n`] very popular in the north,

Not only in the North, but almost everywhere, except a handful of points in Munster...

quote:

2. There are many Irish words where "f" is pronounced [h] (not even mentioning the whole future tense) - cófra, fiafraíonn (second one), uafásach.

Depends on dialect!!! So far I never heard that was pronounced [h] in the 2 last words, so please don't generalize from exceptional and very local pronunciations. In Ulster, fiafraíonn is pronounced [ˈɸjawɾɔnˠ] and uafásach [ˈuˑəɸʷasˠah] !

Great!
Thank you very much!
I'm still a little unsure as to what happens when you add an agent to the sentence such as "agam",
do the rules remain the same?

Tá sé á dhéanamh agam?

Here there is "á" and sé, and i'm not sure which is the object here, "agam" referring to the subject, me.

quote:

Not only in the North, but almost everywhere, except a handful of points in Munster...

Ok, then spell it "héin" if you wish, but this does not mean that "fhéin" is a good spelling, it is not.

quote:

Depends on dialect!!! So far I never heard that was pronounced [h] in the 2 last words

All pronunciation issues in Irish depend on the dialect, so it is obvious without specifically mentioning that "braitheann sé ar an gcanúint".

Jaygon,

Ok - now I get what you are asking. The sentence - "Tá sé á dhéanamh" is ambiguos, and it can have two meanings - "He is doing it" and "It is being done". Adding 'agam' disambiguates it in a way that you know for sure it is passive:

Tá sé á dhéanamh agam - It is being done by me. So in this case á relates to sé indeed. However, when you don't have "ag" form it can be unambiguous anyway. Look at this example:

Tá Niall á ithe. - Niall is eating it. As Niall can't "be eaten" (in normal circumstances at least) - you know that this sentence is active, and mutation exerted by "á" depends on the gender of eaten object. If it is "praiseach" (porridge) then the sentence becomes "Tá Niall á hithe" (feminine), if it is "dinnéar" then it is "á ithe", and if those are apples - then "á n-ithe".

(Message edited by róman on September 11, 2007)

Tá Niall á ithe ag míoltóga....

These two constructions really involve two different prepositions, and used to be morphologically distinct: do+a = dá (also var. dhá) versus ag+a = á (var. ghá.)

Tá an rialtas dá (nó dhá) cháineadh - The administration is being criticized (lit. "to his/its criticizing")
Tá an rialtas á (nó ghá) cháineadh - The administration is criticizing it/him (lit. "at his/its criticizing")

Today they're both just á in the standard; I don't think the distinction has been preserved in any dialect either (but evidence to the contrary would be welcome!) I've read that it disappeared from speech well before the introduction of the C.O., although it persisted in the literature to some extent.

Abigail,

It makes sense what you say. The current caighdeánesque "do mo", "do do" are not supported by any dialect except Conamara. It is "am", "ad" in Munster, "gam", "gad" in Scotland, and even in north Mayo it was "ag mo", "ag do". It is only in Conamara "d(h)o mo", "d(h)o do" are found, and historically they come from wrong etymology. "ag mo" -> "agh mo" -> "gha mo" -> "dha mo"

Níl aon dealramh leis an méid thuas: tá 'do mo' agus 'do do' le fáil i gCúige Chonnacht agus i gCúige Uladh araon.

Cáintear an Caighdeán má chloíonn sé le leagan stairiúil agus cáintear é má ghabhann sé le caint na ndaoine. Mura n-aimsíonn an t-urchar é, buailfear é le stoc an ghunna.

quote:

Cáintear an Caighdeán má chloíonn sé le leagan stairiúil agus cáintear é má ghabhann sé le caint na ndaoine.

"do mo" is neither "leagan stairiúil", nor "caint na ndaoine", if by "daoine" we understand majority of native speakers. It is pure and foremost Conamara thing, not the first one, nor the last one. I am at great pains to see where caighdeán does any unjustice to Conamara.

Ar eagla go gceapfaí go bhfuil bunús ar bith leis an méid thuas, seo daoibh cúpla sliocht as leabhair le húdair a raibh an Ghaeilge acu ón gcliabhán, nár chleacht an Caighdeán, agus nach raibh baint dá laghad acu le Conamara (ón acmhainn luachmhar sin 'Tobar na Gaedhilge' a tógadh na samplaí):

Seosamh 'ac Grianna, 'Dochartach Dhuibhlionna': 'Acht cé go rabh an t-ocras do mo bhualadh, ní rachainn dá gcomhair.'

Séamus 'ac Grianna, 'Thiar i dTír Chonaill': '"Bhí, chan do do bhréagnughadh é," arsa Liam.'

Séamus Ó Searcaigh, 'Cloich Cheann-Fhaolaidh': 'Thainic aréir do m'fhéachaint is mé féin 'mo shuan.'

Chan aontam leat a Ghrumpy.

Seosamh ’ac Grianna > cé go = gidh go i dTír Chonaill.
do mo bhualadh > deirtear "a mo bhualadh" (níl mé cinnte cad é ba chóir a scríobh sa chás sin)

Séamus Ó Searcaigh > go bhfios domh níl "féachaint" ar bith i dTír Chonaill. Deirtear "féacháil" agus ciallann sé "to try" (d’fhéach mé leis sin a dhéanamh = I tried to do that). To look = amharc, amhanc.

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil tionchar caighdeáin ineacht (roimh an Ch.O. b’fhéidir) air sin, nó tionchar canúna eile cibé ar bith.

Hm. An bhfuil mé do do thuiscint i gceart?

Ní bhaineann an leagan seo leis an gcanúint seo. Tá a fhios againn nach mbaineann, toisc nach n-úsáideann cainteoirí dúchais é. Nuair a thaispeáintear go n-úsáideann cainteoir dúchais amháin é ar a laghad ar bith (agus é ina scríbhneoir cáiliúil canúnach), céard a déarfaí ach nach féidir glacadh leis sin mar fhianaise - go gcaithfidh gur "tionchar canúna eile" é. Cén fáth? Toisc go bhfuil a fhios againn uilig nach n-úsáideann cainteoirí dúchais é!

Ní mé cén sórt fianaise a nglacfaí leis más ea?



Níl a fhios agam cinnte agus níl anseo ach smaoineamh a ritheann liom, ach an féidir gur mhair an dá leagan sa gcanúint céanna, tráth dá raibh? Féach/amharc an sampla seo thíos:

"Bhí sé ag féachaint fad a amhairc uaidh féacháil a
bhfeicfeadh sé teach ceann slinne nó barra crann a bhí
deacair a aithne go fóill."
(Séamus 'ac Grianna, 'Faoi Chrann Smola'.)

Ní áirím dul an Chaighdeáin air sin (ná dul chaighdeáin eile ar bith ach oiread), ós rud é go bhfuil an dá fhoirm á n-úsáid san abairt ceannann céanna.

Abigail,

because this state had a sick policy of "editing" (in reality - emasculating) all dialectal texts. Thus, when you see "caighdeánesque grammar" quoted as if by some well known writer - make sure it is not some GUM-edited version. I have "Séadna" as printed before irish republic even appeared, and I have one printed by GUM. GUM version has even words like "rinne mé", although anyone with even coursory knowledge of Munster dialect knows that there is no such word like "rinne" in Munster, thus Peadar Ó Laoghaire COULD NOT write "rinne mé" himself.

Old Grumpy - In ulster "do mo" is simple "mo" etc. Your proposed "do mo" does not fit the fact that in Scotland it is "gam", "gad" and in north Mayo "ag mo" => ergo it is IMPOSSIBLE that Ulster would have "do mo" as Irish dialects and Scottish make a continuum.

Tuigim faoin nGúm, ach caithfear a rá nach iadsan atá i gceist anseo ach amháin leis an sliocht dheireanach a thug mé, sliocht ina bhfeictear gur ceadaíodh "féacháil" cois le "féachaint" san abairt chéanna. Más sampla é sin dá sárchaighdeánú uafásach...
(Ach tuigim céard atá tú a rá. Bhreathnaigh mise ar dhá eagrán de "An tOileánach" sa leabharlann nuair a bhí mé ag dul á léamh an chéad lá riamh, agus b'iontas dom an éagsúlacht is a bhí siad.)

Maidir leis na téacsanna a chuir an Fogey ar ár súile, ní hé an Gúm a d'fhoilsigh iad siúd ar chor ar bith.
Seosamh 'ac Grianna, 'Dochartach Dhuibhlionna': arna fhoilsiú ag Cú Uladh, BÁC, 1925.
Séamus 'ac Grianna, 'Thiar i dTír Chonaill': arna fhoilsiú ag Faoi Chomhartha na dTrí gCoinneal, BÁC, 1940
Séamus Ó Searcaigh, 'Cloich Cheann-Fhaolaidh': arna fhoilsiú ag M.H. Gill & Son Ltd, BÁC, 1908

Abigail,

all fine - but what about phenomenon of hypercorrection? Even if it is a native Ulster writer - he might alter his native speech in order to conform with what is considered "correct" at the moment of writing - kind of self-censorship. I know that in 20s when Munster Irish was viewed as some kind of standard many Ulstermen used forms like "rinneas" which are impossible by any consideration - people who use "rinne" don't use synthetic endings in the past, and those who use (Munstermen) - don't use "rinne" (we have "dhein" stem instead). Therefore, I trust wholy only the forms attested in "Seanachas" collections - because this is ultimately unedited natural speech. Any literary production could suffer either because of beady eye of Gúm, or because of self-censorship.

There are numerous accounts of the fact that Ulster's "féach" means "try", so it is difficult to believe on the basis of one attestment that it means "to look" after all.

Tá /gə mə/, /gə də/ nó /mə/, /də/ gá n-úsáid i gConamara. Is deacair a rá cé acab is coitianta sa gcaint, is dóigh.

/gə mə/ could represent "ag mo" as well...

Thairis sin, is fiú smaoiniú a thabhairt air an rud nach bhfuil ann ach an dó fhoirm seo thuas taobh amuigh do “á” atá ann le haghaidh pearsana uilig eile idir uatha agus iolra. Cé go gcuirtear litriú difreáilte ar an “á” seo – ó “dhá” Uí Shiadhalaigh, agus “ghá” nó “gá” sna scríbhinní canúna agus amhráin – an réimse /α: - γα: - gα:/ atá i gceist, leis sin ráite, is frusta teoiric eicínt a thóigeáil le haighaidh na forbartha ó “ag” a mhíniú.

quote:

an dó fhoirm

dó=dá here, or I don't get something?

Botún atá ann, mo leithscéal. “An dá fhoirm” ba cheart dhom a scríobh.

OK, then the question is if "do" form was ever practically used outside of 3rd person. Sentences like "Táim do mo chrághadh agat" are possible, but not very likely considering that "Tánn tú ag mo chrághadh" is much more natural.

Maidir leis na sleachta ó na húdair Ultacha a thug mé cheana, foilsíodh iad sa chéad leath den 20ú céad sula raibh aon trácht ar an gCaighdeán Oifigiúil agus, mar a scríobh Abigail cheana, níor fhoilsigh an Gúm oiread is ceann amháin de na téacsaí atá i gceist.

Dar le Róman, 'it is IMPOSSIBLE that Ulster would have "do mo" as Irish dialects and Scottish make a continuum'. Bainimis triail as an teoiric más ea:

1. 'Sinn' a deirtear in Albain.
2. Tá idir 'muid' agus 'sinn' le fáil i gCúige Uladh.
3. 'Muid' a deirtear i gCúige Chonnacht.
=> tá sé dodhéanta, ní hea, tá sé DODHÉANTA go mbeadh 'sinn' le fáil gCúige Mumhan.

Sin an saghas loighice a chleachtann lucht cáinte an Chaighdeáin.