I'm probably getting ahead of myself here but I want to ask anyway: How would I render the following sentence correctly in Irish?

"The man who is in Sean's car is tall."

I want to say "Tá sé ard (é?) an fear atá i gcarr Sheáin."

How horrendously am I off?

The best way would be something like
"An fear atá i gcarr Sheáin, tá sé ard".

Tá an fear, atá i gcarr Sheáin, ard.

(Message edited by aonghus on August 18, 2007)

This is a great example of a common problem that often crops up in English-to-Irish translation. In English, sentences with subclauses in the middle, like "the man who is in Seán's car is tall", are no problem. But, when you convert them into Irish while keeping the same structure, the result becomes a little hard to parse mentally. This is because the verb has moved away from the adjective, all the way to the start of the sentence:

Tá an fear, atá i gcarr Sheáin, ard.

This sentence is of course possible and valid and correct, but you do need to be careful to include the commas when writing it, and to pause noticeably when pronouncing it. Otherwise people might think that you're actually saying:

Tá an fear, atá i gcarr Sheáin ard, [...]
The man who is in tall Seán's car [is ...]

If you want to make absolutely sure that people don't get the wrong meaning, you might prefer to re-engineer the sentence totally and to use some kind of cleft (as suggested by Lughaidh):

An fear atá i gcarr Sheáin, tá sé ard.
The man who is Seán's car, he is tall.

Or use the copula:

Is ard an fear atá i gcarr Sheáin.
~ is tall the man who is in Seán's car.

Tá an fear, atá i gcarr Sheáin, ard.

Or use the copula:

Is ard an fear atá i gcarr Sheáin.

Tá ceist agam, ldt. I was under the impression that a sentence such as this which contains what is in English called a predicate adjective mandated the use of the copula.

This would make Is ard an fear the only correct form. Anyone? I don't wish to generate an argument. But from time to time, when someone raises a question about the difference between Bí and Is, the responses lead to the impression that Bí is Bí and Is is Is and never the twain shall meet.

Is it optional? Would Tá an fear ard be acceptable?

quote:

as this which contains what is in English called a predicate adjective mandated the use of the copula

I don't know where you have read that, but it's not right. When you have a predicate noun/pronoun, then you have to use "is". Not when it is an adjective.

"Tá an fear ard" is the most normal way to say it.

I don't know where you have read that, but it's not right.

I got the 'impression' from Chapter 26 entitled FUNCTIONS OF THE COPULA in New Irish Grammar by the Christian Brothers, page 124.

It reads:
"The predicate in a classification sentence can be an adjective: --

Is dorcha an óiche. Is binn béal ina thost.
Nach deas é? Is leor sin. Ní fíor sin."

It seemed to me that Is ard an fear would comply with the above examples of 'classification' statments cited by The Christian Brothers.

quote:

Is dorcha an óiche. Is binn béal ina thost.
Nach deas é? Is leor sin. Ní fíor sin."

These sentences are set phrases, except the first one. Leor is not an adjective, I think (so you can’t use it with tá). You can use the verb "tá" in all of the other sentences:
Tá an oíche dorcha,
Béal ina thost, tá sé binn,
nach bhfuil sé deas?
Níl sin fíor.

"Is ard an fear" is grammatically correct, but it sounds odd to me.

The rule "classification statement > copula" is wrong, to me. With an adjective you can always use "tá".

The rule is simpler than that: you have to use the copula when you want to link two nouns or pronouns together. You can also use it sometimes when you want to link an adjective with a noun or pronoun. But the normal and most common way to link nouns/pronouns with adjectives is to use "tá".

quote:

Is dorcha an óiche. Is binn béal ina thost.
Nach deas é? Is leor sin. Ní fíor sin."

These sentences are set phrases, except the first one. Leor is not an adjective, I think (so you can’t use it with tá). You can use the verb "tá" in all of the other sentences:
Tá an oíche dorcha,
Béal ina thost, tá sé binn,
nach bhfuil sé deas?
Níl sin fíor.

"Is ard an fear" is grammatically correct, but it sounds odd to me.

The rule "classification statement > copula" is wrong, to me. With an adjective you can always use "tá".

The rule is simpler than that: you have to use the copula when you want to link two nouns or pronouns together. You can also use it sometimes when you want to link an adjective with a noun or pronoun. But the normal and most common way to link nouns/pronouns with adjectives is to use "tá".

Is roghnach é. Go raibh maith agat.

"The rule "classification statement > copula" is wrong, to me. With an adjective you can always use "tá". "

Is there not a tendency for that to be most likely in Munster, or it is another 'rule' made up for grammar books

I'd say "Tá sé ard" is pretty universal.
Which grammar books?

or it is another 'rule' made up for grammar books

Perhaps it's a product of cultural bias (what with the brandy, the Fighting Irish, and being sure to "do what the brothers tell you") but I've been assuming that The Christian Brothers' Grammar carried considerable clout.

???

ha ha. lol. Every thing is cultural; or so I was once told by an arts student, even down to the laws of physics...

I meant that Ó Siadhail states that usage of the copula, historically created to link an adjective to a noun (if I recall correctly) has slacked off the most in Donegal and has been retained most strongly in Munster. Since the time period of absolute need has passed, it is used for other things (like introducing new information).

I was thinking maybe the rule was better suited to some situations and dialects and maybe should not be considered universal

Are we talking about the same copula?

I don't know much about its etymology, and I left Ó Siadhail back in the US (I didn't find I referred to it often enough to be worth carting it along) but the primary function of the copula in the modern language - regardless of dialect - is to link two nouns together, or a noun and a pronoun.
Is é Seán an múinteoir.
Is fear é.

Its use with adjectives or to "front" sentence elements for emphasis is sort of a bonus; the basic paradigm is just

two nouns > "is"
noun+adjective > "tá"

Ó bhuel.

...the primary function of the copula in the modern language - regardless of dialect - is to link two nouns together, or a noun and a pronoun....Its use with adjectives or to "front" sentence elements for emphasis is sort of a bonus; the basic paradigm is just

two nouns > "is"
noun+adjective > "tá"


I enthusiastically applaud the simplicity of this paradigm. However, I propose an even more universal premise which I have observed over the past seven years. It goes like this.

It is impossible to discuss the uses of the copula without precipitating a disagreement.

Is fíor dhuit! Tá sin fíor!

"It is impossible to discuss the uses of the copula without precipitating a disagreement."

I don't agree, and I intend to prove you wrong...

Ní féideartha sin agus níl sin féideartha!

B'fhéidir é!

Tá an fear ard	the man is tall
Is fear ard é	He is a tall man
Is ard an fear é	He is a tall man (his being tall is exceptional)

On mature reflection, Lughaidh's version is better. As Michal said, forget the commas/pause and the version I gave is misleading.

Tá an fhocal déanach (nó an buille scoir) ag Aonghus. Nó an (an bhfuil) seo an fhocal déanach?