Elizabeth,

What you witnessed on your original post requesting help is inexcusable. As a long-time participant on this board, and as a perpetual "beginner", please allow me to express my most sincere apologies.

I will, to be best of my ability, attempt to offer you some suggestions/guidance based on what has worked for me. I am not a linguist (although I do speak 2 languages) nor am I really all that proficient at Irish. I'm just a 40 + year old dude who has been plugging away at this language for about 3 to 4 years, now. (Maybe even longer...I'll check the archives to find my first few posts).

First: In MY opinion, and it is only an opinion....do NOT get overly concerned about which dialect you need to learn. It really does not matter in the grand scheme of things. The BASICS of grammar are fairly consistent. There are some variations that, in my opinion, are equivalent to Spanish and the Vosotros forms of the 2nd person plural. Of course, if you haven't studied Spanish, then that last bit makes no sense at all to you....Sorry. The key is that you find a book or a resource that meets your particular learning style.

If you are a "memorizer" I would suggest Buntus Cainte

If you are a "grinder"...in other words, if you really, really enjoy digging into the subject matter in order to grasp concepts, then I would suggest Learning Irish by O Siadhail.

If you're somewhere in between, I would recommend either Teach Yourself Irish (by O Se, I think) or Gaeilge Agus Failte (can't remember the author...sorry).

There are others such as "Irish On Your Own" etc, but I am not familiar with them enough to comment. Whichever resource you decide to get, be sure that you get the tapes/CDs that go with it. You will NEVER make sense out of how a "gh" or "dh" or "gC" is supposed to sound without some sort of audio coaching.

I would also recommend that you spend as much time listening to RnaG and watching TG4 as you can. This will provide you with a natural/contextual auditory development tool that will the slower, more academically driven tapes/CDs. The more you build your vocabulary (with the books and CDs) the more you will get out of these radio/TV broadcasts. They will also help you to grasp the dialectal differences that tend to pre-occupy many beginners because you will hear/see these differences juxtaposed against one another in the context of natural/common speech.

The final thing I would suggest is that you stay connected to this site. Ignore the academic posturing and various "virtual" micturating contests that break out. Find the discussion that answers your question or peaks your curiosity and ingore the rest. They are mere distractors to learning and will foster a cynicism or ambivalence toward the language that will eventually erode your willingness to engage. Don't let that happen...the language needs all of the speakers it can get...fluent as well as beginner!

This is a wonderfully interesting and demanding language and this site has some wonderfully helpful and talented participants on it. I hope your enthusiasm remains strong. Mine has, despite the bickering and such.

Le meas,

james

Ráite go maith, maith thú.

James, I recognize that Caoimhín was right when he said we should agree to differ. Broadly speaking Irish learners fall into 2 opinions on this issue, and agreeing that there will be no resolution to the dispute can be healthy. Not all arguments have to result in a final victory over one participant.

I recognize that your post above is an attempt to help a newbie, but it does contain misleading information. It is quite good advice to start with Buntús Cainte, as you said and then maybe delve into a dialect beyond that. But: you have (accidentally) given misinformation in your post when you said: "The BASICS of grammar are fairly consistent." Unfortunately, this is not true. How do you say "in the room": is it sa seomra or sa tseomra? How do you say "I see": is it feicim or chím? How do you say "in the autumn": is it san Fhómhar or sa bhFómhar? How do you say "I am here": is it "tá mé anseo" or "táim anseo"?

The difficulty is that the dialectal differences affect the very basics of the language, and the most basic things you learn from one dialect will confuse you with another. I could give hundreds of other examples from the top of my head - from the very basics of the language. It is not at all like the various vós vs. vosotros forms for Spanish, but affects virtually every sentence in the language, starting with "hello"? Now, is that Dia duit, or dia dhuit?

This is not academic posturing, but affects the very decisions of the learner from chapter one, or even before, from the point standing in the bookshop. Anyone who bought TYI (ó sé) as you suggest, would probably want their money back a little while later... are you prepared personally to refund the money spent by someone on the basis of your post. The book is universally panned, even by admirers of Standard Irish.

Elizabeth, do you have pots of money including money to waste? do you care about wasting your life, which you only get once? (or do you believe in reincarnation?) If not: I would suggest you buy carefully, and buy the right thing the first time round. People who are trying to help, like James, would lead you to buy the wrong thing and waste a year of your life, like I have. That is not as it seems.

No one can tell you what to buy. But be sure you know why you buy and study what you eventually do - there are various grounds on which to make your decision... the dialect of your ancestors, the relative population sizes using the dialects today, the literature written in the dialects, even a prospective career as a translator (which would lead you to study Standard Irish): but the choice is NOT for anyone on this site to make for you. Those who claim you can start with anything and that the basics are all the same are probably trying to help, but actually hindering. Don't waste your life just because something on a list thought it would be a good idea to do so.

whoops! I meant: táim anso... just another proof that the basics are not all the same at all.

I wrote:

"People who are trying to help, like James, would lead you to buy the wrong thing and waste a year of your life, like I have. That is not as it seems."

I meant to say "that is not as nice as it seems".

quote:

"The BASICS of grammar are fairly consistent." Unfortunately, this is not true.

It is true.
Basics of grammar like word order ("tá mé" vs. "*mé tá", "fear maith" vs. "*maith fear"), existence of initial mutations, existence of a copula, tenses and moods, existence of prepositional pronouns etc. are the same. It doesn't matter if one says "sa tseomra" or "sa seomra". That is really a minor problem and it is not difficult (and it is even necessary) to recognize both and even "ins an tseomra".
To use "chím" or "feicim", "táim" or "tá mé", "dom", "damh" or "dhom", "fear is ea é" or "is fear é" are other minor differences.

Peadar, if you would register you could edit your posts (like I did).

Lars

(Message edited by lars on August 01, 2007)

A few key points to note, A Pheader...

I said, "In my opinion...." That was my qualifier to my comments...they are made based upon my OPINION.

I've been studying for a few years now and I have used most of the resources I recommended in my initial post. I am now able to recognize various dialects in the written, as well as spoken forms with little difficulty. Am I fluent? Not even close...but, I am far more proficient than I was just a few short years ago and I don't see dialectal issues as anything more than a minor obstacle.

My reference to the Vosotros form was but one example of dialectal differences in Spanish. Other examples taken from Spanish would be "Chevere" vs "Muy Bien", "baron" vs "nino" (sorry...I can't get a tilde on this computer)..."embra" vs "chica", "piscina" vs "pileta". "Che" vs "Amigo" vs "Mijo", "Vos" as an interchangeable pronoun with "tu" rather than as a grammatical link to Vosotros, "huacolote" vs "pavon"....I can go on and on and on....The point is, learn the basics in whichever dialect you want...Castillian, Mexican, Cuban, Argentinian...it doesn't matter...learn the basics and the rest begins to sort itself out.

I've made a recommendation to Elizabeth based upon my 6 years (note the corrrection from above) of studying Irish and 6 years of studying, speaking, and working through Spanish in an immersed environment. It was my OPINION based upon MY experiences as a student.

I have maintained, and will continue to maintain that it is FAR more important to select a resource that supports your style of learning than it is to pick a resource based upon a dialect you think you want to learn. That, mo chara, is based upon my experience of over 20 years of teaching very complex and abstract subjects to a variety of students on 3 continents, all through a second language that is not native to me.

A Aonghuis....go raibh mile maith agat.

First and foremost, the woman asked for opinions and that's what she received.

Secondly, regarding this...

"People who are trying to help, like James, would lead you to buy the wrong thing and waste a year of your life, like I have."

... I believe it's rather safe to say that most participants here are, by now, well aware that you:

1. Resent having "wasted a year" learning Connemara Irish;
2. Cannot find a good thing to say about it;
3. Can find any number of ways to disparage and denigrate it.

We get it. Really.

As a student of Connemara Irish, I respect your right to an opinion, but you really shouldn't be surprised that I disagree with it, or that I take personal umbrage when snide, condescending and flatly bigoted wisecracks are used against the variety of Irish spoken by my forebears which I'm trying to learn.

Maith thu a Dhomhnaill a chara. I feel that Peter was unfair to James by denegrating his contribution.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Dhomhnaill, you will get all the help you need here from me and many others in your efforts to master Connemara Irish. Good luck.

Lars wrote:

"Basics of grammar like word order ("tá mé" vs. "*mé tá", "fear maith" vs. "*maith fear"), existence of initial mutations, existence of a copula, tenses and moods, existence of prepositional pronouns etc. are the same. It doesn't matter if one says "sa tseomra" or "sa seomra". That is really a minor problem and it is not difficult (and it is even necessary) to recognize both and even "ins an tseomra".
To use "chím" or "feicim", "táim" or "tá mé", "dom", "damh" or "dhom", "fear is ea é" or "is fear é" are other minor differences."

Lars, you are able to mention some things that ARE the same - fear maith and not maith fear (although tá mé is an infelicitous example, as I am sure you know that not all dialects use "tá me"). But the differences are extensive, both major and minor, and affect nearly every sentence. The existence of initial mutations - but as you know the usage of these varies GREATLY and is a subject of great confusion. Copula - usage varies (Éireannch is ea mé would be Munster...). Existence of tenses - Lars, the fact that tenses exist is a very, very, very basic similarity. English has a present tense. Italian has a present tense... hence they are the same language? Moods: the fact that all dialects have a subjunctive mood... Spanish has a subjunctive... so does English... so they are the same language?

There are more similarities in the same vein that you could have mentioned: all dialects have nouns. They all have verbs. They all use vowels in speech. But I don't think these "similarities" are helpful...

The verb conjugations are a difference that is not minor at all. After getting half-way through Learning Irish, Róman sent me some messages in Munster Irish about a year ago. I have to confess I couldn't understand any of the verbal forms.

Some commentts in this thread are highly misleading, to say the least.

I've learnt Connemara Irish and have no problems undertanding other varieties.
If you speak or learn any language you've got to be aware that most people speak various dialects which you'll have problems to understand. No matter if you speak the Standard or anything else.
For example, I've been learning English for more than 20 years and I still find it difficult to understand, say, the Scottish or most Londoners.
As for Irish, learning any dialect won't either help you or hinder you from understanding the other ones. If you say 'feicim' you'll have to learn that some people say 'chím'. If on the other hand you say 'mádra', you'll have to learn that others may also say 'gadhar' or 'madadh'.
Concerning case forms, they are not as important in Irish as they are eg. in Russian. They are rather like the -s in English forms such as 'he comes' where 'he' is actually what matters and the -s in only a relict from the past. So, if you learn to speak a dialect with no distinct case forms, you won't miss anything:
dosna fuinneogaibh - do na fuinneoga(í) - no big deal.
Difference such as 'sa seomra - sa tseomra' is not vital either.
So, it is all the same which dialect you're going to learn.

And by the way, I don't think learning a dialect for one year is a waste of time. You can always change the dialect if you're not satisfied, and the differece is not that big after all.

Daithí

Since the syntax is generally fixed, the case endings are not massivly important -the loss of nom vs. acc showed that.

Part of the problem for a learner is that you have both mutations based on sound (lenition and eclipsis) and declination (based on pre/historical morphology) and sometimes they are needed (one or the other (or both?)) and sometimes not.

Its a bit odd to have a rigid syntax with cases, plus mutations as well. If you needed cases you could see the logic in having them -but since it is apparent they often have no real function, it is difficult for the learner to get. It results in you learning more than one rule at the time when you know nothing. This is a disaster for learners, and dont someone who speaks 75 languages tell me otherwise

deletion... sorry, wrong thread.

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on August 04, 2007)

For James,
Thank you so much for all the suggestions. I've purchased "Teach yourself Irish" and "Irish on your own". I'm pretty sure I will find something else out there to help also. Regarding what is posted by other people on this site - I respect their opinions. Some of the discussions can get a bit snippy. But, it does make for interesting reading. I have had other questions and have found the answers on this site in other postings.

Thanks again,
Elizabeth