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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (July-August) » Archive through August 19, 2007 » Gaoluinn na Mumhan -- Tuiseal Tabharthach de "gaeltacht" « Previous Next »

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1792
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 05:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Samplaí iad seo a leanas d'ainmfhocalaibh bhaininscneacha ar leathan a gconsan deiridh:

gaeltacht
gluiseacht

Conas a chuirtear isteach sa tuiseal tabharthach iad?

Tháinig sé ón ngaelta...?

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 08:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

...cht

Lars

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1793
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 09:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A slightly more elaborate explanation would be insightful.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 157
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 10:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are dative singular forms in 2nd declension (grian - gréin, bróg - bróig, ciall - céill) and 5th declension (Éire - Éirinn, abha - abhainn, cara - caraid)
Some petrified dative forms of 1st declension nouns are still used in phrases (ceann - cionn)
In 3rd declension (e.g. Gaeltacht) and 4th declension I never heard of any special dative singular forms.

Lars

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 158
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 03:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A slightly more elaborate explanation:
-cht is (and was) always broad.
Nouns in -cht originally ended in a vowel which is now lost (except for genitive and plural forms).

Old Irish (acc. to Thurneysen)

cumacht(a)e = cumhacht = power

casesingularplural
nominativecumacht(a)ecumacht(a)e
vocativecumacht(a)ecumacht(a)e
accusativecumacht(a)ecumacht(a)e
genitivecumacht(a)icumacht(a)e
dativecumachtucumacht(a)ib


The genitive singular vowel -(a)i was weakened to -a [ə] in modern Irish and so would any other ending, i.e. -(a)e and -u (if they weren't lost). So all cases would end in -a.
If there still would exist a dative form it would be "cumhachta", "Gaeltachta". But it doesn't.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on July 29, 2007)

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 985
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 04:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ana-shuimiúil, a Lars!

This explains why in Munster words in -cht don't change at all in genitive. Logically thinking all singular forms should be "gaeltacht", form "gaeltachta" is unhistorical.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 159
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 05:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Unhistorical" is perhaps a too harsh word.
It is quite normal that declensions change to fit normal language patterns and are regularized from time to time. And it is normal to have and retain a special genitive in Irish. So "gaelachta" is a normal historical development. But its loss - as in Munster - is historical, too. Unhistorical things normally don't happen in living languages.
And last but not least, the RnG radio jingle "Raidio na Gaeltachta" sounds better than "Raidio na Gaeltacht" :-)

Lars

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 201
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Saturday, August 04, 2007 - 07:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Why does -acht never become -icht? Is this for the above reason? Does it do so in Albain?

Bi-labial inside ®

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1796
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 04, 2007 - 01:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

-Acht never becomes -aicht. And there are very few words in which you'd have -icht. AN example: boicht, genitive singular of bocht. And as far as I know, in "boicht", only the t is slender, the -ch- is broad: [bʷɔχtʲ]

In Scotland, they say -achd, and it never becomes slender either.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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sean-Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2007 - 02:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you look at the above paradigmes you'll see that in Old Irish the words in -acht ended in a broad vowel in all cases. So the -cht couldn't become slenderized.

Actually the -ae isn't broad but it must have developed from a broad vowel or diphthong?!

Daithí

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 206
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 06:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gaodhal maybe [ɡɯðˠəɫ] in the past; then maybe later ao -->é or í

Bi-labial inside ®

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 163
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 09:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Old Irish the words in -acht ended in a broad vowel


I don't think so. The "a" in "ae" or "ai" was only a spelling marker of broad -cht-. The pronounced vowel was slender [e] or [i].
Orthography was not as consistent as it is today ("caol le caol"). So the letter "a" could be left out. (that's why there's "(a)e" and "(a)i")

-acht- was always broad according to Thurneysen.
So -(a)icht- never happened (in nouns).

Lars

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3187
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 10:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sean-Ghaeilge: Goídel
Nua-Ghaeilge Chlasaiceach: GaoidhealGáeidheal

Tá an 'g' ag tús an fhocail leathan, agus an 'l' deireanach freisin. Fuaimníodh an 'd' mar 'th-in-this' in "Goídel" agus bhí sé caol. Ach bhí an 'dh' in "Gaoidheal" balbh, mar sin ní raibh sé caol ná leathan.

Nua-Ghaeilge: Gáe[idhe]al ~ Gael

NB: I litriú na Sean-Ghaeilge, tá riail ann a deir go bhfuil tús (Anlaut) caol ag an litir 'e / é' agus deireadh (Auslaut) leathan aige:

bél = béal
cét = céad
sen = sean

(Message edited by dennis on August 06, 2007)

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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sean-Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 10:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

*******I don't think so. The "a" in "ae" or "ai" was only a spelling marker of broad -cht-. The pronounced vowel was slender [e] or [i].


Sure, but it must have developed from a diphtong like 'ai' so the 'cht' couldn't become slender.

Later this diphthong turned in /e/ or /i/.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1802
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 02:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ceist agam ort, a Dhennis:

Cad é mar a d’fhuaimneadh ’n focal "cumachtae" ?

[ˈkˠu͂μəχtˠɛ] ?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3189
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 05:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní féidir liom an méid idir [ ] a léamh. Tabharfaidh mé iarracht ar é a rá le focail.

cumachtae

Tá an 'u' srónach. Is ionann 'm' anseo agus 'mh'. Is ionann an 't' seo agus 't' leathan an lae inniu. Maidir leis na gutaí 'ae' ag an deireadh, dúradh mar 'é' iad sa tSean-Ghaeilge chlasaiceach, agus mar schwa ina dhiaidh sin.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1803
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 06:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I wrote in IPA: Primary stress, k, velarisation, u, nasalisation, Greek mu, schwa, Greek khi, t, velarisation, Greek epsilon.

Mmm, by the way, at that time, ch would have been velar, so [x] instead of Greek khi. Wouldn't it?

An bhfuaimníthear an mar é fada nó gairid?

Ceist eile: cad é ba bhun don sin, i nGaeilg Réamhstairiúil? An ndeirfí rud ineacht mar *kumaktajas ?

Grma.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3190
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 01:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Mmm, by the way, at that time, ch would have been velar, so [x] instead of Greek khi. Wouldn't it?

Tá 'ch' leathan agus 'ch' caol araon againn sa tSean-Ghaeilge (ach-Laut und ich-Laut, velar and palatal). Ach tá 'cht' leathan sa chás seo... agus ... hmmm ... i gcónaí? Sílim gur mar sin atá. (Bíonn drogall orm "never" a rá sna cúrsaí seo, tá's agat!) Tá focail ann ar nós "icht" agus "íchtar", ach tá an carn consan seo leathan agus scríobhtar "iocht" agus "íochtar" níos déanaí.
quote:

An ndeirfí rud ineacht mar *kumaktajas ?

D'après le correspondant gall. cyfoeth « richesse » (cf. mcorn. chefuidoc gl. omnipotens Voc.), le dérivé nominal [de con·icc] semble avoir pour base un degré fléchi, *kom-okt-, où le th. verb. *ônk-/enk- a perdu très tôt sa nasale.

ó LEIA, s.v. "cumachtae"

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1805
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 07:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tá 'ch' leathan agus 'ch' caol araon againn sa tSean-Ghaeilge (ach-Laut und ich-Laut, velar and palatal). Ach tá 'cht' leathan sa chás seo... agus ... hmmm ... i gcónaí? Sílim gur mar sin atá. (Bíonn drogall orm "never" a rá sna cúrsaí seo, tá's agat!) Tá focail ann ar nós "icht" agus "íchtar", ach tá an carn consan seo leathan agus scríobhtar "iocht" agus "íochtar" níos déanaí.



Ní hé sin a bhí i gceist agam... D’úrt mé gur shíl mé go rabh ’n ch leathan "velar" aige’n am sin, nuair a bíos sé "uvular" don chuid is mó sa lá inniu.

quote:

D'après le correspondant gall. cyfoeth « richesse » (cf. mcorn. chefuidoc gl. omnipotens Voc.), le dérivé nominal [de con·icc] semble avoir pour base un degré fléchi, *kom-okt-, où le th. verb. *ônk-/enk- a perdu très tôt sa nasale.



Ceart go leor, ach ní mhíneann sé cad é a bhí sa deireadh: -aj-â ? Dé do bharúil?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3191
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ceisteanna maithe don liosta Old-Irish-L!

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1806
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 05:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl mé liostáilte níos mó. Ní minic a bíos ceastracha mar sin agam a bhaineas leis an tSean-Ghaeilg... An dtiocfadh leatsa ceist a chur ar na daoiní eile ’tá ann? Grma.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 214
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

nílim ach 'testing' mo phictiúr

(Message edited by bearn on August 07, 2007)

beam me up!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 3192
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 09:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

An dtiocfadh leatsa ceist a chur ar na daoiní eile ’tá ann?

Nope. Tá sé an-éasca clárú ar an liosta. Má tá soiléiriú le déanamh nó ceisteanna eile le cur, beidh tú ann, gan idirghabhálaí. Tá sé níos fearr mar sin.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 215
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 06:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,
whats the distribution between dialects of velar and uvular fricatives, as you always seem to use the latter in transcriptions


PS, why does the byline take so long to update? If I messingly put something in to test it, only a few hours later does it show up, by which time it seems odd. Anyway...

don't leave me Jonathan!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1807
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 08:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhennis, níl mé ’gabháil a chlárú munab fhuil ach ceist amháin agam le cur. Tá mé ’gabháil a chuartú in áit eile.

A Bhirn, according to what I hear, I think broad ch is always uvular nowadays. The velar sound [x] can be found in Slavic languages, and it doesn't sound like the Irish broad ch at all.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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sean-Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 02:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes. It's uvular, according to my ears. The Slavic [x] is quite different and it can get palatalized before front vowels (in South slavic).

The -ae in cumachtae must have been short, there's no fada above it even when the 'a' is left out.

Daithí

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 224
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 04:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I felt it was too as [x] is in my English but the irish one is farther back.

What does this mean from Gamma? (voiced ch) Is it further back? It is not like the French R, altho 2 dialect studies had that sound develope in Donegal and Conemara, but it was quite rare.

don't leave me Jonathan!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1811
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 06:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yeah, [x] is like a [k] but you let the air going out. As you say, [χ] is farther back.

Gamma is like a [g] but you let the air going out as well. The French r is uvular, it's the voiced form of [χ] actually.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 227
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 06:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thats what I meant

don't leave me Jonathan!



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