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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (July-August) » Archive through August 04, 2007 » NUI Report on Language « Previous Next »

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I haven't seen any mention on this site about the NUI study.
www.gaelport.com/index.php page=clippings&id=2161&viewby=date

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 190
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 02:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ignore it. Its just consultants justifying fees, and government justifying not making decisions by getting consultants.

What is required to save Irish is known. Period. No need for 'research' or whatever. This is just another example of how the administration perpetually defers decisions by waiting for someone to pass paper thru the door.

Bi-labial inside ®

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 03:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This denial approach is why the language is in the condition it is. "Kill the messenger." Obviously this is not the place to discuss the the real situation. The young people just don't care about Irish. That's the reality.

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 589
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 03:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Out of curiosity, exactly how many years/centuries did it take the British to replace Irish with English? Chances are it would take as much time to reverse the process; and judging from the opinions and anectdotes that arise each time someone resurrects this topic, it would seem that the process would also require the same degree of threats, punishments and all out violence that the first transformation utilized.

Is ait an mac an saol.

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John
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Username: John

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 04:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bearn
'What is required to save Irish is known.'

Níl a fhios agamsa faoi sin - an féidir leat é a mhíniú?

J

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 590
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 04:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ceist maith.

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1785
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 05:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

ceist mhaith, a Phádraig

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 408
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 06:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK, tá laghdú tagtha ar na huimhreacha. Cé acu seo is cúis leis, a chairde na páirte?

Daoine le Gaeilge á tréigint?
Daoine gan Ghaeilge ag teacht isteach sa gceantar?
Daoine le Gaeilge ag fágáil an cheantair?
Lanúineacha le Gaeilge gan a ndotháin clainne a bhreith?

Nó cúiseanna eile nach iad?

Ní dóigh liom gur cóir ná gur cuí an locht uilig a chur ar an aos óg - ná ar aos ar bith eile ach oiread. Tá níos mó ná fadhb amháin ann.

Agus in ainm Dé pléimis i nGaeilge seo!

(Message edited by Abigail on July 26, 2007)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 410
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 07:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhí an abairt dheiridh sin beagán ró-dhocht, b'fhéidir. Níorbh é an rud a bhí i gceist agam "bí i do Ghaeilgeoir nó bí i do thost." Níorbh é sin é ar chor ar bith.

Ach pléimis i nGaeilge seo más féidir linn ar chaoi ar bith. Is fearr i bhfad sin ná na síorchomhráite seo a bheith ar siúl againn faoi chás na Gaeilge agus chosaint na Gaeilge agus locht lucht na Gaeilge, agus muide a bhfuil Gaeilge againn ag síordhul i muinín teanga eile lena ndéanamh.
Is cuma faoi na mionearráidí. Déanaimse mo chuid acu freisin. Is beag duine anseo nach ndéanann. Ná ligtar dóibh sin muid a chur ó úsáid na teanga.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 191
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 07:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Níl a fhios agamsa faoi sin - an féidir leat é a mhíniú? "

Amharc ar Finland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Lithuania...

Bi-labial inside ®

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 06:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bearn said:

"Ignore it. Its just consultants justifying fees, and government justifying not making decisions by getting consultants.

What is required to save Irish is known. Period. No need for 'research' or whatever. This is just another example of how the administration perpetually defers decisions by waiting for someone to pass paper thru the door."

Bearn, I have to agree with you. This is just wasting money to give the pretence of wanting to save the Irish language.

The only way it could be done is by totally bilingual schooling, which means gradually extending the gaelscoileanna. At the moment there may not be enough teachers to do it, but as those who leave such schools become teachers themselves, new bilingual schools can open up and gradually extend themselves across Ireland. There are things the government could do: special 1 or 2 year education certificates, conducted in Irish, for people who speak fluent Irish but are not qualified to become primary school teachers, or who have degrees in Maths etc and speak Irish but need to learn the Irish terminology for maths and brush up that fluency in order to tech Maths through Irish at secondary school. Education degrees could all include a compulsory year at a Gaeltacht college, and all new teachers at all levels required to demonstrate fluency in Irish. That way, gradually more and more teachers will be fluent in Irish and more and more schools will be able to go fully bilingual. The Ministry of Education needs to be charged with extending bilingual schools as its main function. Currently, they refuse to help gaelscoileanna find teachers as they say it is not their job to do so. An Act needs to be passed stipulating it is their MAIN job to do so. Finally, I noticed the Ministry of Education needs to get outside translators to translate from and to Irish. It should be legally prohibited for them to use outside translators: the Ministry of Education should haave Irish-speaking employeees, otherwise how do they plan to revive Irish?

This plan would work, and would be a long0term plan. It would require agreement among the parties, maybe enshrinement in the Constitution so that change of government did not alter the long-term strategy.

Another problem would be: poor or at least variable Irish in Gaelscoileanna. The government could draw up a multimedia package with video recordings of good Irish, and institute a Good Irish hour in the schools every day, where they watched the videos and focused on good Irish. These videos could focus on lenition, eclipsis, broad and slender, the correct use of the copula and the cases, and it would be understood that even where the teachers themselves had an English accent, the children should copy the multimedia recordings.

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Mise_fhéin
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Username: Mise_fhéin

Post Number: 206
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 07:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"exactly how many years/centuries did it take the British to replace Irish with English? Chances are it would take as much time to reverse the process; and judging from the opinions and anectdotes that arise each time someone resurrects this topic, it would seem that the process would also require the same degree of threats, punishments and all out violence that the first transformation utilized."

bhí an teanga i gcónaí ag dhul i laige mar gheall ar pholasaithe rialtas is a leithéid ar feadh na mblianta, ach bhí gá le cinedhíothú (An Gorta Mór) chun an chaidhp bháis a chur uirthi

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1787
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 08:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You know how native speakers of a language don't need any grammar lessons? For instance, nobody had to tell me to use "are" instead of "is" for the plural, I just picked it up naturally.

What puzzles me though is how kids in Gaelscoileanna aren't so apt at this. I've spoken to 17 and 18 year olds who've attended Gaelscoileanna all their life, and even though they can express themselves wonderfully in the language, they're grammar doesn't reflect that of any of the dialects. Specifically, their use of séimhithe and uruithe is eratic at times, as well as their use of the cases.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 194
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

F na mB,
what is puzzling at all? Bad models, laissez faire learning culture, no 'meta education' (why and how of initial mutations, cases etc regardless of language in question). The teachers can't speak Gaelic, they speak English, but wallpaper over the English with Irish words.

In fact I would say that people attracted to Irish seems to be more stupid and arrogant that average -the fact that they dont get that you can't idiomize one language via another -no they would not even know what you are talking about, says to me they are just tossers

Bi-labial inside ®

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 984
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil ár ndóthain droch-Ghaelainne sna gaelscoileannaibh mar go bhfuil "political correctness" orainn fé láthair. Tá daoine go léir sona sásta (nó áthas an domhain orthu, déarfainn) má labhrann an páiste Gaelainn, pé droch-Ghaelainn aige féin. Ní féidir le héinne rá gur droch-Ghaelainn í, an nós do-mhuinteartha is ea é!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1788
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 11:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As béal Bhirn:
quote:

what is puzzling at all? Bad models, laissez faire learning culture, no 'meta education' (why and how of initial mutations, cases etc regardless of language in question).

A Bhirn, you're not getting what I'm on about. There's no need for "education" in a language. I was saying "they boy is, the boys are" well before I ever heard about grammar in school -- so the question is why kids aren't picking up on how Irish is spoken? A native speaker shouldn't have to know anything about grammar to utter a sentence such as "Bhíos ag labhairt leis an mnaoi arbh í a máthair úinéir na dtithe í". So why do the kids, and even the teenagers speak it so flimsily? Is it because the teachers speak it flimsily? Or is it simply because the kids learn a bit of Gaoluinn and then go speak it amongst themselves, not hearing elaborate séimhithe and so forth until they speak with an older person like a teacher?

I suppose the questin can be answered by looking at other minority languages in other countries.

But I can't stress enough how there shouldn't be any need for grammar education and so forth.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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sean-Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 04:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To achieve the unconscious knowlegde of grammar of a language you have to be exposed to the langugage from an early age. That is to say, all people around you must speak the language and then you'll learn (acquire) it with no effort. However, what happens in Gaelscoileanna is children speaking Irish to their teachers and English to each other. That's the problem. There should be one English speaking child in a class with 10 Irish speakers, which is of course impossible.

How and why English became the prevailing language in Ireland is quite a different story.
Dave

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 195
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 06:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"But I can't stress enough how there shouldn't be any need for grammar education and so forth."

I think that you create logical chimeras so trick people -you know that grammar is needed for adults when learning a language -your grasp of it is an example at hand.

I understand your point on implicit grammar -my point that there was no models and exposure to proper native irish segues with yours, well, to a degree at least.

My psychology thesis was on using artificial grammar to teach real grammar as a proxy to that from a real language. We seem to be able to internalize grammar implicitly very quickly, even when the material is ostensibly gibberish. Maybe that fact that words have meaning in Irish interferes a bit; also real language is more complex.

I mean, I think I have a good feeling for grammar -I have done a massive amount since March, and now I just have to internalize the copula, numbers, and some other syntax for communicating. I have a good grasp of most other stuff. True, I know very little in the way of active vocabulary, but I can read most posts in Irish without a dictionary. In a few months I think I might be OK at Irish. Regardless, I never make the sorts of errors that I see on trains and on the internet. A lot of people are just not spending the time that is needed to read differing dialects (Séadna is good, regardless of your preferred dialect) and pick up a passive sense in their very body of what is a good pattern and what is not

Bi-labial inside ®

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 592
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 03:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Quote: Daoine gan Ghaeilge ag teacht isteach sa gceantar?
Daoine le Gaeilge ag fágáil an cheantair?

Dear Abby,

Ní thuigim do úsáid don fhocal, ceantar" seo. An chuirfeá Béarla air le do thoil?

Freisin: Agus in ainm Dé pléimis i nGaeilge seo!

Is rud éasca é duit rá. Dá scríobhfaidís na Gaeilgeoirí líofa as Gaeilge idirmheánach, bheadh misniú orainn.

(Message edited by pádraig on July 28, 2007)

(Message edited by pádraig on July 28, 2007)

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1794
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 09:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"ceantar" is the root of the word.

"ceantair" is the genitive case of the word.

The eclipsis, i.e. "gc" is caused by "sa" in this particular speaker's dialect.

The lenition, i.e. "ch" is caused by the masculine genitive definite article.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 224
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 03:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

According to www.englishirishdictionary.com :

ceantar = n (of country) district m1
ceantar = n locality m1
ceantar = n (US) precinct m1
ceantar = region m1

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 593
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 10:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"ceantar" is the root of the word.
"ceantair" is the genitive case of the word.
The eclipsis, i.e. "gc" is caused by "sa" in this particular speaker's dialect.
The lenition, i.e. "ch" is caused by the masculine genitive definite article."


Go raibh maith agat, a FhnBh. Tá sin agam. Ach bhí mé ag fiafrú (in comhthéacs) cad ceantar faoi a bhfuil Abigail ag caint.

Is ait an mac an saol.

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sean-Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhí sí ag caint faoi cheantar mar 'region', dar liom.

- Daoine gan Ghaeilge ag teacht isteach sa gceantar - People with no Irish that move into the region (=the Gaeltacht)
Daoine le Gaeilge ag fágáil an cheantair (Irish speakers that are leaving the region)

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a sean-Daithí. Tá sin ciall aige.

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sean-Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

***Go raibh maith agat, a sean-Daithí. Tá sin ciall aige


Go raibh maith agat, a shean-Daithí. Sin é an chiall atá leis.

Slan

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 594
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 01:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cad é a bhí me ag smaoinú? Níl a fhios agam. B'fhéidir bhain mé "tá sin ciall aige" as "bíodh ciall!"

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 412
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Freisin: Agus in ainm Dé pléimis i nGaeilge seo!

Is rud éasca é duit rá. Dá scríobhfaidís na Gaeilgeoirí líofa as Gaeilge idirmheánach, bheadh misniú orainn.


Mar a dúirt mé sa gcéad teachtaireacht eile, bhí mé beagán ró-chrua sa méid sin. Ach féach ar an scéal mar a chonacthas domsa é. Tosaíonn plé i mBéarla ar cheist na Gaeilge, cuireann duine éigin a ladar isteach i nGaeilge, aontaíonn duine eile leis i nGaeilge, agus céard a tharlaíonn? Ceartaítear é! Ní fhreagraítear an cheist a bhí acu beirt - ach ceartaítear a chuid gramadaí!

Níl tada agam i gcoinne ceartúchán. Tá siad áisiúil. Fáiltím féin rompu (beagnach) i gcónaí. Ach nuair a thagann siad gan choinne, agus i dtús an phlé mar a tharla anseo, is féidir leo an misneach a bhaint de dhaoine, agus daoine a chur ó úsáid na teanga. Sin an rud a bhí mé a rá: bíodh misneach againn, úsáidimis ár gcuid Gaeilge, bíodh plé bríomhar againn inti, agus ná ligimis do na earráidí é sin a mhilleadh orainn. Lena rá ar bhealach eile, "is fearr cainteach ná cáinteach."


Maidir leis an "Gaeilge idirmheánach"...
Brón orm má chuir mo rogha focal as d'aon duine. Scríobh mé an rud a bhí le rá agam sna focail is túisce a tháinig i m'intinn. Ní raibh mé ag iarraidh a bheith doiléir d'aon turas - ní raibh mé ag smaoineamh faoin leibhéal ar chor ar bith. Ba chóir dom a bheith níos cúramaí, go háirithe agus mé ag iarraidh plé a spreagadh mar a bhí mé.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 11:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chairde,
If we could return to the original topic. The issue seems to be an unwillingness on the part of Irish young people to assist in the preservation of the national language. We are told the studies are bogus, the language is not being taught properly, etc., but no one seems to want to address why they have so little interest in the language. Is it because Ireland is so under the influence of Anglo-American (especially the latter) "culture"?
Has Ireland become the 51st state in spirit if not in name? Compare the Irish language situation with that of Wales where they seem to have incorporated Welshness into the youth culture. I would like to see the Irish language continue but there seem to be problems no one wants to honestly deal with.

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 596
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 12:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Abigail, a chara,

Go raibh maith agat. Is maith liomsa an friotal, "is fearr cainteach ná cáinteach." Ba coimhéad an tagairt faoi an Gaeilge idirmheánach. Níor beachtaíocht é. Aontaím leat. Ceist amháin. Cad é mar a bheith fhios againn nuair táimid i ndiaidh dearmad a déanamh?

Is ait an mac an saol.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5902
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 05:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=2165&viewby=date

I find this report pertinent to the story above:

quote:

But there is a considerable rump within Irish society that would not only be indifferent to this appalling vista, but actively rejoice in it. You know the sort: those cringing self-haters with who suffer from a post-colonial inferiority complex of gargantuan proportions. For these cultural Uncle Toms, anything distinctively Irish is automatically bad, anything foreign indubitably good.


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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 08:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá an ráiteas sin fírinneach go h-áirithe i gcás na teangan, a Aonghuis. Nach bhfaca na h-Éireannaigh iad féin a dteanga mar chineál siombal den bhochtannas, den iargúltacht, den aineolas le trí chéad bliain anuas? Bhí an dearcadh sin ar a labhrann an scríobhneoir sin coitianta go maith sa nGaeltacht. Ní iontas ar bith go bhfuil an teanga ar an dé deiridh.
Gan dabht, chuidigh polasaithe tubaisteacha an rialtais le bás na teangan. Bheadh formhór na léitheoirí ró-óg le cuimhneamh ar na deich bpunt airgead scoile a bhí le fáil ag leanaí sa nGaeltacht nach labhraíodh aon Bhéarla sa teach. Chonaic muintir na Gaeltachta é sin mar chleas le h-aghaidh iad a choinneál síos, agus bhí údar acu.
Maidir le sábháil na teangan, déarfainn go dtosaíonn an iarracht le gach duine againn a bhfuil suim agus grá againn don teanga. An bhfuil muid féin ag déanamh a gcoda ar a son? An bhfuil muid páirteach in eagraíochtaí a throideann ar a son?
Tá na Gaelscoileanna go maith, ach mar a deir sean-Daithí, níl Gaeilge ina dtimpeall sách óg, agus ní féidir leo í a phiocadh suas go nádúrtha, faraor. Maidir leis an rialtas, ní fheicfear go deo uathasan ach gealtanais gan chomhlíonadh agus cur i gcéil mar a feiceadh ariamh.

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Guevara
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Username: Guevara

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 12:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Really I don't think Irish people care about speaking any Irish and that the Welsh realise that without Welsh they would basically be pretty much the same as the English and would be subsumed culturally. I have great respect for a people who live beside the mother of English speaking nations who refuse to give up their language. The Irish people think they can be Irish through speakinG English only.Irish people have extreme hangups most don't like Irish, irish music, arent bothered about singing the national anthem or respecting the flag all things I am passionate about. I guess their not as patriotic as other nations such as USA, Britain, Canada etc.

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sean-Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 04:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá chuile náisiún Oirthear na hEorpa mar sin, iad ag iarraidh a bheith ina Meireacánaigh. Tá a gcuid teangacha lán d'fhocail Bhéarla agus na focail seo ag éirí níos líonmhaire gach lá...
Meastar gur siombal na hiargúltachta í an ghrá do do thír féin agus do rudaí a bhaineann di!
Tá an t-ádh orthu nach bhfuil a bhformór in ann Béarla a labhairt go maith. Dá mbeádh labhródh leath na hEorpa Béarla anois!
Daithí



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