Hi I have an interview soon and an irish test, Im just wondering if you pronounce the f in the future tense, e.g. brisFidh me, tabharFaidh me etc. Its been a long time!

As far as I know, there are two standard ways or pronouncing the future tense.

Brisfidh = bris-ee
Tabharfaidh = tabhar-hee

or

Brisfidh = bris-fee
Tabharfaidh = tabhar-fee

It's really up to you whether you pronounce the f or not.

Down South in Munster, they say "brish hig".

Elsewhere, they say "brish ee" (where the "ee" rhymes with "key").

There's only a very small area where the native speakers pronounce the F.

f in future tense is usually pronounced [h], except after voiceless consonants - c,p,t,s - where it is not pronounced at all.

And voiced consonants are made voiceless by [h]:

E.g. pógfaidh [po:ki]/[po:kə]

Lars

The verbal ending -(a)idh is pronounced:

- [ə] before the subject personal pronouns, and seo, sin, siúd;

- in all other cases it is pronounced [i] in Ulster, [ə] in Connemara, [ɪɟ] in Munster .

quote:

[ɪɟ] in Munster

There is no such consonant neither in Munster nor in Irish in general. The consonant pronounced is a slender velar [g`], not a palatal plosive found in Hungarian or Latvian.

(Message edited by Róman on July 11, 2007)

What IPA symbol would we use then?

g with a small j (like an exponent).

[gʲ] or even [ɡʲ]?

There is no such consonant neither in Munster nor in Irish in general.

Of course there is.

/k'/ = [c]
/g'/ = [ɟ]

I was thinking as we have [c], so the voiced one is [ɟ] -the voiced one is used even in English around Ulster.

Rómán, what is your thinking why it is not?

I don't see those symbols properly - but when I copied them into word I had j-barred - this is palatal plosive in IPA, right? There is NO such consonant in Irish and there NEVER was one. Slender [g] is a VELAR sound pronounced in different mouth place and it is denoted in IPA as [g] with "J"-superscript, as rightly pointed out by sean-Daithí.

quote:

I was thinking as we have [c]

I see that one as a plain "c" - and I am sure there are additional features - so can you describe verbally what it is?

When people from Ulster speak in English, they say a palatal c in 'Cavan' like 'kyavan' or gate as 'gyét'.

It is much clearer in English as in Irish the greater number of slender sounds make ones ear less sensitive. I have the [c] as an allophone of plain c in my English [kaer] vs [k'aerd] (car va card). Use /g'/ a bit too

The plain [c] in IPA is the sames as /k'/

Erris: /g'/ voiced unaspirated palato-velar plosive
[k'] same, juts voiceless and aspirated

Cois Fhairrge: /g'/ unaspirated voiced forward-velar polosive
[k'] same but voiceless an d aspirated

Tourmakeedy: /g'/ this symbol denotes a voiced palatal plosive consonant formed by raising the soft palate and bringing the middle of the tongue into contact with the roof of the mouth at the junction of the hard and soft palates, then releasing this contact quickly while the vocal cords vibrate.

(124.) The point of articulation varies somewhat for this phoneme, being relatively advanced in a sequence such as /sm'ig'i:n'/

/k'/ This denotes a voiceless palatal plosive consonant, differing from /g'/ in being voiceless, aspirated, and more energetically articulated.

Muskerry: /g'/ This a voiced palatal or palato-velar plosive, formed by pressing the front of the tongue against the roof of the mouth at the junction of the hard and soft palates, keeping the tip down behind the lower teeth. The lips are slightly spread

[k'] as above but voiceless and aspirated

quote:

When people from Ulster speak in English, they say a palatal c in 'Cavan'

Nobody argues with that.

quote:

The plain [c] in IPA is the sames as /k'/

NO, NO, NO. The sound denoted [c] in IPA is the same as Hungarian "ty", or Latvian "ķ". There is NO such sound in Irish. It sounds like an ultra-slender [t]. Listen yourself:

http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/consonants2.html

It is in palatal-plosive box.

The sound that has been recorded on that site *is* an ultra-slender [t]. And that's not how [c] has to be pronounced, according to what I've learnt. Go on this website, and you'll hear different sounds! : http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/consonants.html

Strangely enough, their [c] sounds like a /k'/, while their [ɟ] is between /g'/ and /d'/, especially in the 3d recording [ɑɟ] pronounced almost [ɑdʲ].

I'm afraid the interpretation of these sounds depends on the person who does the IPA website... As you say, Hungarian gy doesn't sound exactly like /g'/, for me it's more like /d'/, and ty is more like /t'/. /g'/ and /k'/ are a little bit further back. For me, Hungarian gy and ty are not [c] and [ɟ].

So I'm afraid we're both right. Just the pronunciation of [c] and [ɟ] depends on the person (which is odd, for a scientific field as phonetics!). Some pronounce them as palatalised k and g, others more as palatalised t and d...
I learnt that [c] and [ɟ] were palatalised k and g, that's why i transcribe Irish k' and g' with these symbols. And at the same time, I wouldn't use these symbols for Hungarian, because they are further forward in the mouth (I mean, closer to the teeth).

Thanx Róman for drawing my attention to that point. Before, I thought that one single symbol of the IPA could only have one sound, but now I know that there may be little differences according to the linguist. Ačiū !

quote:

The sound that has been recorded on that site *is* an ultra-slender [t]

Actually it is not. It just sounds this way, but in reality it is palatal sound. [t] can never be farther than alveolar. I lived in both Hungary and Latvia - and speak those two tongues, and I know very well what is [k`] and what is [c] - those sounds are really different.

quote:

Go on this website

Hey, I don't need websites for that. I was in Gaeltacht I was conversing with locals and I know what I heard, and what not. As [c] was always a difficult sound for me (there is only [k`] in Lithuanian) - I distinguish it very well although I cannot produce it on the spot. Anyway SERIOUS books on Irish dialects transcribe /k`/ as [kj] not as [c]. There is nothing to discuss.

quote:

Hungarian gy doesn't sound exactly like /g'/

Hungarian "gy" is a voiced pair of the "ty". It is just an accident of history that those spellings don't match. "gy" is [j-barred], "ty" - [c]. And yet, those sound as ultra-slender [d] and [t] - and there are NO such sounds in Irish, in any dialect

quote:

For me, Hungarian gy and ty are not [c] and [ɟ].

It is just your own opinion, and it proved you have no idea what those IPA-signs represent. IPA sign represents only one sound, and [c] is a standard sign of Hungarian sound in any serious phonetic description.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language

"The sound voiced palatal plosive /ɟ/, written , is unlike any in English. It occurs in the name of the country, "Magyarország" (Hungary), pronounced /ˈmɒɟɒrorsaːg/."

(Message edited by Róman on July 16, 2007)

The difference between /c/ and /kj/ or /j-/ and /gj/ is just like the difference between the Connemara /N'/ in 'cinn' or 'an ndearna' and /ng'/ in 'ag an ngeata'.

/N'/ is palatal and /ng'/ is a palatalised velar

Daithí

Anyway SERIOUS books on Irish dialects transcribe /k`/ as [kj] not as [c].

Chan fhaca mé [kj] i leabhar ar bith fán Ghaeilg go dtí seo, más buan mo chuimhne. Tá dheá fhuaim in [kj], nuair nach bhfuil ach cionn amháin in /k'/ (agus níl ach fuaim amháin in achan fhóinéim chaol).

Tá ’s agam cad é a chluineam. Uair amháin eile, tá tú ’magadh faom agus ag athrú cainte ó theachtaireacht go teachtaireacht. Ach is cuma liom, thig leat do rogha rud a dhéanamh.

by [kj] I mean j-superscript. That much was obvious...

It was only obvious for you, since [kj] and [kʲ] are different!. Níl muid in do chloigeann!

(there is only [k`] in Lithuanian)

If you really knew IPA, you would know that the symbol [`] doesn't exist in it, except above vowels. And in that case, it means "low tone". And it cannot apply in Irish since it isn't a tonal language.

Anyway SERIOUS books on Irish dialects transcribe /k`/ as [kj] not as [c].

Please tell me what books you're refering to. As I said, I've never seen any [kj] in a book about Irish, as far as I can remember. I hope you'll mention books in English or in Irish this time, and not only in Russian. I hope you'll tell me that there are serious books in English or Irish about Irish...

quote:

It was only obvious for you,

Look, sean-Daithí told that several posts ago - I agreed with him. Isn't it obvious that we still continue to talk about the same thing? Anyway, any reasonable person can deduce that it is very difficult to put superscripts, so [kj] MIGHT mean superscript as straitforward [k]+[j] does not make any sense.

Lughaidh, I see you are in the state of self-denial just because I have proved you were wrong about Hungarian. Get over it, or there is no sense to continue conversation. I have no interest in satisfying somebody's ambitions.

By [k`] Róman certainly meant the [k'] that appears in books such as Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail etc. In IPA this would mean a glottalized consonant but in the case of Irish it means a palatalized consonant, just as it's explained at the beginning of the book (L.I.).

I can't speak for all the dialects but I'm sure that [c] doesn't exist in Connemara. I've heard them pronounce the slender 'k' as a palatalized velar (the back of your tongue pressed against the region between the soft and the hard palate). On Inis Meáin I heard a sound similar to the English 'ch' in e.g. 'chips'. The same is true for it's voiced counterpart.

[c] exists in my own language and it sounds quite different than the [k'] of Connamaran Irish. Perhaps for someone whose native language doesn't have any of these sounds distinguishing them might be more difficult.

Daithí

quote:

On Inis Meáin I heard a sound similar to the English 'ch' in e.g. 'chips'.

But it was most probably /t`/, not /k`/? Actually very interesting - I mean your remark. On Inis Mór they said something like /t`s`/, like Catríona is speaking in Ros na Rún. I read this was the original pronunciation all over Conamara and Donegal. Only in Mayo and Tellin (spelling?) they said smth like English "ch". Recently this English way has expanded very much under influence of learners who transfer their English skills into Irish.

quote:

[c] exists in my own language

Сad as dhuit, a dhuine mhaith, ní fheadar?

I am intrigued.

Actually it is /t'/ not /k'/, you're right.
I heard a woman on Inis Meáin pronouncing t' just as the English ch. In Ceathrú Rua I heard lots of people, especially women, pronounce this as t's'.

Is as an gCróit dhom.

Anyone who pronounces t like that hates Irish and is the enemy of the language!

Yes it all hangs on one thing!

quote:

as an gCróit

First I thought it is some baile i nÉirinn. Only later it dawned on me - that yes, it is a name of the country. Stupid me .

Recently I had to read some balances and p/l statements i gCróitis, no joke! Gubitak, dobitak 7rl. What is the letter you have for [c] i gCróitis? Don't tell me it is 'ć'!

If you have trouble typing IPA here, maybe this kind of tool will help you:

http://www.linguiste.org/phonetics/ipa/chart/keyboard/
http://www.ipa.webstuff.org/diacritics.php

Maidir liom féin, I type IPA "fluently" because I have made my own IPA keyboard thanks to Keyman and Keyman Developer, you can find on Tavultesoft website. It's more complicated than cut-and-paste from the above websites, but once you're accustomed to it, you can type IPA very quickly.

Now, let's go back to our discussion about /k'/ and /g'/. What is your opinion on this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_consonant ?

and especially on this paragraph:

quote:

Warning: the IPA symbols are commonly used, not for palatal stops, but for the palatalized velar stops [kʲ, ɡʲ], or the palatal affricates [c͡ç, ɟ͡ʝ], or the alveolopalatal affricates [t͡ɕ, d͡ʑ], or even the postalveolar affricates [t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ]. This is an old IPA tradition. True palatal stops are relatively uncommon, so it is a good idea to verify the pronunciation whenever you see in the transcription of a language.

Now listen to [c] and [ɟ] here :http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/consonants.html and tell me your opinion about them. Personally, I don't know who I should trust now because the sounds that are represented by [c] and [ɟ] are different according to the website you visit.

IN other words, our soft sciences (psychology, linguistics, sociology etc) are not really sciences, in the sense of physics or chemistry, but rather philosophies using the scientific method

Ok, so it clears misunderstanding - you followed old tradition. The site again mentions Hungarian, and it could also mention Latvian. I was a witness how a Latvian girl could copy Hungarian 'gy' (presumable the most complicated sound of Hungarian) on the spot, without any practice, because "there is the same sound in Latvian". Hungarian girl was amazed.


On this site you provide the sounds are ok, except for [aca] which is pronounced clearly as [ak`a], not [aca], but [ac] and [ca] are correct.

I heard a woman on Inis Meáin pronouncing t' just as the English ch.

I recently had some tutoring from an Irishman from Ulster, and he was pretty clear that in his experience the t as "ch" was more common there than elsewhere.

I've always heard the slender t as a kind of mid-point between ts and ch, if that makes any sense.

(Message edited by domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on July 18, 2007)

quote:

t as "ch" was more common there than elsewhere.

Depends on the place. In Teilin - yes, it has always been like that. In northern Donegal older speakers still pronounce as [t's'], just like people in Conemara. I find [t's'] much more pleasing aesthetically than 'ch' - but this is my personal perception.

It should be the only one allowed, if by [t's'] yoy mean a t with same near tongue positions as [j]

Is fearr liomsa an /t's'/ freisin.

'Sea. c' a úsáidtear le /c/ a scríobh i gCróitis. Go deimhin, níl an consan seo inár gCaighdeán, ach tá sé coitianta sna cainiúintí a labhraítear ar an gcósta agus ar na hoileáin. Tá mé féin i mo chónaí i mbaile mór ag an gcósta. Seo é an consan céanna atá acu sa Ungáiris.

An fhuaim a scríobhtar le c' sa gCaighdeán/Chaighdeán ná guta éiginn cosúil leis an /t's'/ atá i gcainiúintí áirithe na Gaeilge.

A Bhirn,
Cén chaoi fhuaimnithe atá i gceist agat? /ts/, an ea?

Daithí




Ceartaigí más gá. Agus tá mé cinnte dearfa gur gá! :-)

Ok, but the rest pronounces ć as English "ch", don't they?

Tá difríocht ag cuid is mó de na daoine idir c˘ agus c'. Cuirtear bior an teanga suas ar an gcarball leis an c˘ a rá, agus cuirtear 'droim' an teanga suas ar an gcarball leis an c' a rá. Tá an ch an Béarla áit éiginn idir an dá cheann seo.

'Sé an rud nach bhfuil aon difríocht ann ag muintir na príomhchathrach agus ag muintir an cheantair timpeall uirthi. Cheapann foghlaimeoirí eachtrannacha gur gné sheanaimseartha atá i gceist mar sin.

Tharlaíonn an rud céanna leis na 'tones'.