mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (July-August) » Archive through July 21, 2007 » Genetive question « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member
Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 194
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So... I'm given to understand that "buidéal fíona" is the term for "bottle of wine."

Can somebody explain why it wouldn't be "buidéal fhíona," with fíona lenited? I thought that the genetive case required lenition where possible... Thanks!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 134
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 04:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Could be not leniting f for fear of making the word too different.

However, I never got a definite question as to why the lenition suspension can occur like this; gender is a factor, but not here if it is masculine

Bi-labial inside ®

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1730
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 10:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Consider in English how we can use adjectives to describe a noun:

big cabinet

We can also use a noun to describe a noun:

medicine cabinet

In the Irish language, when a noun is used to describe another a noun, (e.g. in the case of "medicine" above), the describer noun has to be put in the genitive case. Something like:

medicinal cabinet

(And before anyone says anything, yes I realise that people say "medicine cabinet", and yes I realise that one could argue that "medicinal" is an adjective rather than a noun in the genitive).

Anyway, in Irish, as far as I'm aware, these adjectives and nouns get exactly the same treatment. The use of a séimhiú on these descriptive words is dependant on the gender of the noun which they describe:

fear mór (big man)
bean mhór (big woman)

In the case of "buidéal fíona", it's perfectly correct because "buidéal" is masculine. What's funny though, is that when a noun is put in the genitive, the rule is flipped on its head so that men take a séimhiú and women don't:

fear mór
bean mhór

ainm an fhir mhóir
ainm na mná móire

an buidéal fíona
bliain an bhuidéil fhíona

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member
Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 195
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

My brane hurtz.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1735
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 08:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yup it's a right to learn. . . there was a time when I wondered how the hell native speakers did this off-the-cuff but ya get the hang of it soon enough.

(Message edited by admin on July 06, 2007)

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge